Are there any video cards that will drive a 4K display ? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 32 Old 02-05-2013, 10:37 PM - Thread Starter
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With 4K TV's coming later this year, if somehow, someway, one was to aquire one of these 4K TV's, would you be able to get a video card to output 3840 x 2160 ? Would you be able run games at this resolution ?



The SEIKI 50" SE50UY04 is supposedly going to retail for about 2 grand, and it will be the cheapest 4K tv available (it might be a total piece of crap though...) In the back of my mind, I'm thinking about getting one as a giant computer monitor, if I could run it at 4K and really see a difference.
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post #2 of 32 Old 02-06-2013, 02:37 AM
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PC gaming has been running those high resolutions for years now. ATI Eyefinity and Nvidia Surround are same concept, just you have to deal with bezels between displays. I for one couldnt live without the high rez for pc racing sims, as your able to see more around you.

As for power to run this your looking atleast a dual gpu setup, to see decent framerates in games.

Ideally if I could go one display instead of three, I would. The cost of 4k displays is what will hold me off for awhile rolleyes.gif

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post #3 of 32 Old 02-06-2013, 07:29 AM
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As far as games go, you'll need bleeding edge hardware to have decent experience at 4K with any modern game. By the time 4K hits mainstream, we'll likely all need new computers and graphics cards anyway. Intel, NVIDIA, and AMD all offer 4K solutions that vary pretty wildly. The current lineup (Kepler) of NVIDIA graphics cards support 4K displays AND 4K video acceleration. AMD supports 4K displays, but 4K video acceleration varies according to some reviews I've read. Intel has some weird splitter thing... There are also limitations depending upon whether you use HDMI or DisplayPort. You'll want to verify support before diving in as driver updates can fix (or break) a lot of things.

EDIT: I should define "decent experience". Full resolution, all settings maximum, over 40fps.
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post #4 of 32 Old 02-06-2013, 02:11 PM - Thread Starter
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But what about the games themselves ? I remember back in the old days, you would have certain games that would be capable of 800 x 600, and then there was certain other games that were compatible with a higher resolution, but it wasn't like you could somehow run a game from 1998 in 1900 x 1200 if the game's engine didn't support such resolutions. What is different now ? Is it the way the game engine is made, that it allows to run at these higher resolutions, even if it was programmed with those kinds of resolutions in mind ?

For example, there are of course these 27 inch monitors that support a 2560 x 1440 resolution. Will "every" game run at this resolution ? Are there certain games that simply won't run at a 2560 x 1440 resolution ?
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post #5 of 32 Old 02-07-2013, 03:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nathanddrews View Post

As far as games go, you'll need bleeding edge hardware to have decent experience at 4K with any modern game. By the time 4K hits mainstream, we'll likely all need new computers and graphics cards anyway. Intel, NVIDIA, and AMD all offer 4K solutions that vary pretty wildly. The current lineup (Kepler) of NVIDIA graphics cards support 4K displays AND 4K video acceleration. AMD supports 4K displays, but 4K video acceleration varies according to some reviews I've read. Intel has some weird splitter thing... There are also limitations depending upon whether you use HDMI or DisplayPort. You'll want to verify support before diving in as driver updates can fix (or break) a lot of things.

EDIT: I should define "decent experience". Full resolution, all settings maximum, over 40fps.

Only AMD is confirmed to fully support 4K over DisplayPort and HDMI at this time and has been used for almost all 4K display demos except for Intel's 4K demos of Ivy Bridge and Haswell and Nvidia's Tegra 4 demo. Nvidia's Kepler can supposedly - according to Nvidia - do 4K over HDMI and DisplayPort though Nvidia has apparently refused to do any 4K demos with the cards and claims to have no access to 4K TVs though their Quadro Professional cards do support 4K over DisplayPort according to their specs. Intel does not support 4K at this time except through engineering POCs used for 4K testing with custom dual-DisplayPort output as the Ivy Bridge GPU design is incapable of 4K over a single output, but Haswell will support 4K over HDMI and DisplayPort. All three companies have 4K video encode/decode built-in to the current generation of GPU.
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post #6 of 32 Old 02-07-2013, 05:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anthony1 View Post

But what about the games themselves ? I remember back in the old days, you would have certain games that would be capable of 800 x 600, and then there was certain other games that were compatible with a higher resolution, but it wasn't like you could somehow run a game from 1998 in 1900 x 1200 if the game's engine didn't support such resolutions. What is different now ? Is it the way the game engine is made, that it allows to run at these higher resolutions, even if it was programmed with those kinds of resolutions in mind ? For example, there are of course these 27 inch monitors that support a 2560 x 1440 resolution. Will "every" game run at this resolution ? Are there certain games that simply won't run at a 2560 x 1440 resolution ?

Depend on the game. Most older games that I've played can be forced to play well beyond the resolutions supported in the game menu either by console commands or modifying files. Unreal Tournament, Serious Sam, and Halo immediately come to mind. The bigger issue is that most old games don't support widescreen resolutions - they either crop the sides or stretch the HUD.
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Nvidia's Kepler can supposedly - according to Nvidia - do 4K over HDMI and DisplayPort though Nvidia has apparently refused to do any 4K demos with the cards and claims to have no access to 4K TVs though their Quadro Professional cards do support 4K over DisplayPort according to their specs.

As I said, you'll want to do research on each GPU to determine what sort of 4K support it has. AMD has only demoed 4K on the 7970, that I'm aware of, even though they claim that all Southern Islands GPUs can do it. Early testing of 4K acceleration on their Cape Verde GPUs (7750) resulted in failure, however. If AMD can support full 4K decode acceleration across the whole GCN architecture, then it is a much newer development. Also, AMD's Trinity (Cayman-based) still doesn't support 4K over HDMI or 4K video acceleration. Intel's IVB 4K support is a joke since no motherboards support it, like you said. NVIDIA has 4K display and acceleration all along in all Kepler products from top to bottom (as well as some older select Fermi cards):
http://www.anandtech.com/show/5969/zotac-geforce-gt-640-review-/4
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Originally Posted by LexInVA View Post

All three companies have 4K video encode/decode built-in to the current generation of GPU.

I'm not try to be obstinate, because while you're technically correct, what good is it if it doesn't work well or you can't use it?

They move slower than molasses, but Anandtech is planning on doing a HTPC review soon that will explicitly test 4K with each company's GPU lineup. Can't wait!
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post #7 of 32 Old 02-10-2013, 03:58 PM
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Once upon a time QUAKE shipped out at 320x240 for most of us........after we all bought our first generation GPU's and added them to our systems, we could play at 512x384 or even in some cases the mighty 640x480. Then you could play quake at 1024x768 or higher. What did you get?
YOu got the same low rez textures and the same architecture, just rendered higher. Higher resolution doesn't really make things look better, it just makes things look sharper....in fact in some cases it makes things look unnaturally sharp, which is why games have taken to using exotic filtering and post-processing to create the natural blur of peripheral vision.

I can get the idea behind having triple screen gaming, racing sims..I suppose even FPS's to a certain extent, but do I need the actual resolution of my display to be even higher than it is now? Not necessarily. I run a big 37" 1080p display. Many folks run higher resolutions in smaller monitors, and there are times in a game when even with AA turned on I will go "This game would look better at a higher resolution, or on a smaller screen"....but those moments are rare and I almost never find myself going "DAMN this game would look so much better if it was running under double the pixels!". I mean unless the game is natively made to run at those super high resolutions, you're just scaling up lower rez textures and geometry.

Ask yourself what are you getting.....besides significantly reduced frame rates.....if you are doing multi monitor, with each monitor serving a purpose (essentially peripheral vision), I get it. To have a single monitor running at 4K in front of you....no, and I don't think we will be there anytime soon. Maybe Angry BIrds 4K, but Grand Theft Auto 4K? I'd rather see more emphasis placed on post-processing and other filtration effects, that to me matters more than doubling the dots on screen, which are already so small you can't pick them out without being up close and personal with the screen, far closer than you will ever be in day to day usage.
ITs like "SCREENSHOT Syndrome". I looked at the back of my old Playstation TWISTED METAL case recently, its amazing how good that game looks when you show the renders in a 2" window smile.gif ANyone who played it on anything more than a 19" set however remembered it looked like blocky, texture-warping ASS. smile.gif

As with all things electronic, its best to avoid anything First or Second generation........hopefully Developers won't be distracted by additional pixels and start to devote their energies to pushing pixels instead of creating more and more believable and fantastic worlds.

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post #8 of 32 Old 05-29-2013, 02:33 AM
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Hi lads. I'm looking at going intel for my htpc. I have no interest in playing 4k games but I definitely want to future proof it for 4k video.
I am thinking about I3-3220 & MSI Z77A-G45
http://m.tomshardware.com/reviews/z77-express-ivy-bridge-benchmark,3254-26.html

I have a ati 6450 in the pc & i would not mind having to upgrade it when I get my 4k projector whenever that happens but I don't want to have to redo the motherboard & cpu.
Do ye think the I3 & the Z77 chipset will be ok for 4k?

Edit. Sorry just saw this is a gaming post.
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post #9 of 32 Old 06-01-2013, 10:50 AM
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You can already run Arma 2 (DayZ) at a render resolution of 4k and see what the impact is. It was almost playable on a gtx570 sli setup. However that may be misleading because Arma 2 is very cpu dependent hampering performance. Like my experience with going to 2560x1600 early on, i think many games will run it fine; it will be certain graphical features that aren't yet optimized that will really slow it down. Metro Last Light for example will probably run fine at medium settings on a single gtx680 (no tessellation or SSAA).
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post #10 of 32 Old 06-01-2013, 11:28 AM
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Asus just announced a 31" 4k monitor too. This will be a nice option for the 4k PC. Hopefully it won't break the bank.

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post #11 of 32 Old 06-15-2013, 01:08 AM
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I hope GTX 770 supports 4k as i will be getting one on monday. The ASUS monitor - when it is available in Europe...
I currently run 2560x1600 30inch monitor and is already dated... I have it for 4 years now.

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post #12 of 32 Old 06-30-2013, 07:09 PM
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I know this is a gaming thread, but some of you posters seem so very knowledgeable. I was wondering if small arm-based devices could output a 2560x1440 video signal. It would seem not, based on the posts so far, but several tablets have internal displays better than 1440 resolution. So if the tablet has the power to produce the image, is there an arm device that can put the high resolution signal out on hdmi? If so, tell me what they are, and if not, please explain why not - like if there is a limitation in the hdmi output stage, for example.


Thanks,

Steven
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post #13 of 32 Old 07-01-2013, 05:37 AM
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post #14 of 32 Old 07-01-2013, 05:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stevielee View Post

I know this is a gaming thread, but some of you posters seem so very knowledgeable. I was wondering if small arm-based devices could output a 2560x1440 video signal. It would seem not, based on the posts so far, but several tablets have internal displays better than 1440 resolution. So if the tablet has the power to produce the image, is there an arm device that can put the high resolution signal out on hdmi? If so, tell me what they are, and if not, please explain why not - like if there is a limitation in the hdmi output stage, for example.


Thanks,

Steven

You'd have to look at the GPU in a specific ARM-powered device. The GPU from ARM, Mali, goes up to 4K. However, many ARM devices use other GPUs. I'd say that pretty much all but the low-end ones are designed for 4K output at this point but it's more of an "on paper" vs "in reality" situation.
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post #15 of 32 Old 07-01-2013, 07:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stevielee View Post

I know this is a gaming thread, but some of you posters seem so very knowledgeable. I was wondering if small arm-based devices could output a 2560x1440 video signal. It would seem not, based on the posts so far, but several tablets have internal displays better than 1440 resolution. So if the tablet has the power to produce the image, is there an arm device that can put the high resolution signal out on hdmi? If so, tell me what they are, and if not, please explain why not - like if there is a limitation in the hdmi output stage, for example.


Thanks,

Steven
The NVidia Shield is one device that can playback and output 4K videos and that's if you don't mind having something of that shape.
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post #16 of 32 Old 08-02-2013, 03:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave-Blu-Ray View Post

I hope GTX 770 supports 4k as i will be getting one on monday. The ASUS monitor - when it is available in Europe...
I currently run 2560x1600 30inch monitor and is already dated... I have it for 4 years now.
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1 - 4096x2160 resolution supported through a single HDMI connector. 4096x2160 resolution is not supported with two DVI connectors.

http://www.geforce.com/hardware/desktop-gpus/geforce-gtx-770/specifications

I just purchased one of these today to drive a Seiki display. I got the ASUS model and just picked it up from my local Fry's shop.

I believe that all computer parts are disposable and I look forward to throwing away my $1,000 Seiki monitor and $500 770 video card to replace it with a $1,000 name brand display and newest $500 graphics card that does 4K at 120Hz three years from now.

This will hold me over for three years, and I will just live with 30Hz for now. I spent more than I wanted on a graphics card, really, but the Seiki display does 1080p120Hz which is awesome for games. So I will just play counter-strike at 120hz for a while I guess.

"What's the frequency Kenneth."

I wasn't planning to buy a Seiki until I learned that it would do 120Hz at 1080p.

I hope lots more people enjoy this monitor. It took a while to set up, and it's for nerds not for casual users, but once you get it set up, the pixels look just as nice as the name brand monitors. I do recommend going through ClearType setup again after you fiddle with it, but it is not bad at all!
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post #17 of 32 Old 08-18-2013, 09:35 AM
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Raw GPU power is only half of the equation. Of course you want it to be able to support enough frames per second for the games to be playable, but there are a lot of quirks to the technology still being worked out. AMD is way ahead of NVIDIA and Intel right now, but for both NVIDIA and Intel, they're just a few bug fixes away from getting it right.

We tested a bunch of cards and posted about the whole experience (including some benchmarks):
http://www.pugetsystems.com/labs/articles/4K-Monitor-Requirements-and-Usage-492/
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post #18 of 32 Old 08-18-2013, 12:16 PM
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I'll move to 4K gaming in 2015/2016 when the cards can actually handle it well. Until then, I'm sticking with 1080P.
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post #19 of 32 Old 08-19-2013, 05:24 AM
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Originally Posted by LexInVA View Post

I'll move to 4K gaming in 2015/2016 when the cards can actually handle it well. Until then, I'm sticking with 1080P.

2015? Don't you mean now?

http://www.engadget.com/2013/04/24/amd-details-radeon-hd-7990/

30+fps maxed out games at 4k on a single-card (granted dual gpu but still)

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post #20 of 32 Old 08-19-2013, 07:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marafice Eye View Post

2015? Don't you mean now?

http://www.engadget.com/2013/04/24/amd-details-radeon-hd-7990/

30+fps maxed out games at 4k on a single-card (granted dual gpu but still)


You need a super-high-end card and CPU to attempt 4K gaming right now. I'm not gonna blow 5K on a computer with current tech that will be worthless next to a $1200 one that packs far better tech two years down the road. DDR4, PCIe 4.0, Stacked DRAM video memory, and a host of other improvements in hardware are going to make 4K gaming a reality that is affordable and accessible.
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post #21 of 32 Old 09-17-2013, 10:52 AM
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Very keen on a reply.
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post #22 of 32 Old 10-03-2013, 11:14 AM
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Nvidia is partnering with OEMs to make 4K gaming machines for the upcoming AAA titles that support 4K. Dual/Triple/Quad-SLI rigs and whatnot. Not affordable, but it's pretty much what is needed right now.
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post #23 of 32 Old 10-04-2013, 07:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LexInVA View Post

Nvidia is partnering with OEMs to make 4K gaming machines for the upcoming AAA titles that support 4K. Dual/Triple/Quad-SLI rigs and whatnot. Not affordable, but it's pretty much what is needed right now.

Still cheaper building your own. I'm just waiting for a cheaper 4k/60Hz monitor before I jump.

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post #24 of 32 Old 10-04-2013, 07:32 AM
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That will come in 2015. More 4K monitors will launch next year but they will still be pretty expensive, maybe half the price of what is selling now and they will still use large TV-sized panels. It won't be until they make sub-30 inch panels that the prices will come down bigtime.
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post #25 of 32 Old 10-04-2013, 09:44 AM
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post #26 of 32 Old 10-07-2013, 03:40 PM
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I've been playing around with downsampling/supersampling the past few days. A surprising amount of games run at 60fps in 4k (1080p/4xSSAA) on my GTX760. The thing is...with SSAA it looks so incredibly smooth and beautiful that I don't really feel the need for true 4K. I haven't seen them side by side, but I wouldn't be surprised if I actually preferred the smoothness of 1080p/4x SSAA, it looks so damn good.

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post #27 of 32 Old 10-07-2013, 04:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bd2003 View Post

I've been playing around with downsampling/supersampling the past few days. A surprising amount of games run at 60fps in 4k (1080p/4xSSAA) on my GTX760. The thing is...with SSAA it looks so incredibly smooth and beautiful that I don't really feel the need for true 4K. I haven't seen them side by side, but I wouldn't be surprised if I actually preferred the smoothness of 1080p/4x SSAA, it looks so damn good.
Downsampling and supersampling are two very different things.

If you are using 4x OGSSAA or SGSSAA via the Nvidia Control Panel/Nvidia Inspector with the right compatibility bits, things can start looking very nice indeed.

If you are rendering 3840x2160 and outputting it at 1920x1080 having the drivers downsample, image quality is terrible, as it's only doing bilinear scaling in realtime, and there is virtually no antialiasing benefit - it looks nice in screenshots though when people render at that and then downsample in photoshop or similar applications that use higher quality scaling algorithms.
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post #28 of 32 Old 10-07-2013, 06:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chronoptimist View Post

Downsampling and supersampling are two very different things.

If you are using 4x OGSSAA or SGSSAA via the Nvidia Control Panel/Nvidia Inspector with the right compatibility bits, things can start looking very nice indeed.

If you are rendering 3840x2160 and outputting it at 1920x1080 having the drivers downsample, image quality is terrible, as it's only doing bilinear scaling in realtime, and there is virtually no antialiasing benefit - it looks nice in screenshots though when people render at that and then downsample in photoshop or similar applications that use higher quality scaling algorithms.

I'm using sgssaa where I can, but how is downsampling any different than ogssaa? Its just pixel color directly averaged using multiple samples.

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post #29 of 32 Old 10-07-2013, 08:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bd2003 View Post

I'm using sgssaa where I can, but how is downsampling any different than ogssaa? Its just pixel color directly averaged using multiple samples.
All I know is that OGSSAA (or SGSSAA with compatibility bits) produces sharp results with little aliasing, whereas downsampling gives me a soft image with a lot of pixel crawling/aliasing in motion.

I would rather run the game at 1080p and have a crisp image, than the results of downsampling.
It's similar to post-process antialiasing in that regard; it can look great when the image is still (at least SMAA can) but as soon as anything moves, it's clearly not nearly as good as MSAA.
And FXAA/MLAA blur the image so much as well, I always disable them in games. (FXAA is forced off via Nvidia Inspector)
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post #30 of 32 Old 10-07-2013, 09:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Chronoptimist View Post

All I know is that OGSSAA (or SGSSAA with compatibility bits) produces sharp results with little aliasing, whereas downsampling gives me a soft image with a lot of pixel crawling/aliasing in motion.

I would rather run the game at 1080p and have a crisp image, than the results of downsampling.
It's similar to post-process antialiasing in that regard; it can look great when the image is still (at least SMAA can) but as soon as anything moves, it's clearly not nearly as good as MSAA.
And FXAA/MLAA blur the image so much as well, I always disable them in games. (FXAA is forced off via Nvidia Inspector)

I just tested it out, and 1080p downsampled from 4K looks exactly like 2x2 OGSSAA, as it should.

Downsampling from anything other than a direct multiple isn't going to do a neat job, since some pixels are getting more samples than others and it's not a proper grid. Which is why the OGSSAA modes are limited only to multiples.

Obviously 3840x2160 is a huge leap from 1080p, so it's not feasible in newer games. But in DX10/11 games that don't have proper SSAA, MSAA or anything but MLAA in the menu, you don't really have much choice. I find that non-multiple downsampling is still an improvement when used in conjunction with MLAA, since the AA filter is run before the downsampling. So it's mostly just a reduction in shimmering while moving, the base image was already antialiased, and the MLAA blurring is gone since it's running at a higher internal resolution. MSAA is useless nowadays, and MLAA isn't nearly good enough...a little extra downsampling is better than nothing when you've run out of options.

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