Any way to experience 120hz HTPC content on an HDTV? - AVS Forum
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Old 02-19-2013, 08:24 AM - Thread Starter
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I bought a 120hz TV recently with the understanding that I'd be able to view 120fps content from my PC on the TV just like I currently do on my monitor.

I've learned that there seems to be no way to pass TRUE 120fps content to most televisions. They don't have an input that would accept it (Dual-link DVI?)

I currently pass 120fps to my 120hz computer monitor over Dual-link DVI and clone that monitor to my new television over HDMI. I get terrible tearing and technically, only 60fps.

I've taken in alot of information today, but from what I'm understanding -- there is no way to truly display 120fps on my monitor.

At the very least, if this is all correct and I am out of luck --- is there any way to not pass the extra 60fps to my TV? If I can just pass the 60fps it would eliminate the tearing for me.

Any information is greatly appreciated.
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Old 02-19-2013, 11:43 AM
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I'm impressed you made it work at all. Out of curiosity what type of HDTV are you using that survived the punishment?
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Old 02-19-2013, 12:18 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by lurkor View Post

I'm impressed you made it work at all. Out of curiosity what type of HDTV are you using that survived the punishment?

It's a Panasonic VIERA L42E50. The current setup is beyond over-complicated.

PC Video Card ---> HDMI Cable ---> Yamaha Receiver ---> HDMI 1x2 Splitter ---> (A) Old Samsung TV & (B) Panasonic

My computer detects the receiver since that is the first device it hits via HDMI. I choose to "clone" my main monitor onto this Receiver, which then sends the picture to both my Samsung and Panasonic TVs. Both experience tearing, since my primary monitor I use with my video card actually does support 120hz --- which is why I want to render in 120hz. Unfortunately with cloning, I also have to clone the vertical frequency --- which in turn creates the tearing on my two TVs.

I had originally thought that by purchasing a 120hz monitor, I would be able to eliminate the tearing. However it turns out, the 120hz is internal to my TV, and not what it accepts via HDMI. This is where I get confused --- Am I actually receiving the 120 frames, and my TV can't interpret it via HDMI? Or am I getting 60 frames? If I was only getting 60, I would think the tearing wouldn't happen.
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Old 02-19-2013, 01:02 PM
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That is certainly creative. I both love and hate PC gamers at the same time, lol. I don't think your Yamaha receiver can pass through a 120Hz signal to begin with.
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Old 02-19-2013, 01:34 PM - Thread Starter
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Good point.

I was hoping that by enabling the "Smooth Cinema motion" it would essentially try to render the 60 frames it was passing and eliminate the tearing.

I'm a bit lost in that regards -- why is there tearing if the extra frames can't make it to my TV? I think I'll need to read up on tearing a bit.
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Old 02-19-2013, 01:43 PM
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HDMI 1.4b was released on October 11, 2011.[149] One of the new features is that it adds support to 1080p video at 120 Hz.

From wikipedia.

I might be wrong but I don't think any video cards support hdmi 1.4b yet. I'm fairly certain your receiver doesn't. Heck, your TV might not even. It might only support changing 60hz and 24hz to 120hz by sending the same frame multiple times.
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Old 02-19-2013, 01:56 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by macks View Post

HDMI 1.4b was released on October 11, 2011.[149] One of the new features is that it adds support to 1080p video at 120 Hz.

From wikipedia.

I might be wrong but I don't think any video cards support hdmi 1.4b yet. I'm fairly certain your receiver doesn't. Heck, your TV might not even. It might only support changing 60hz and 24hz to 120hz by sending the same frame multiple times.

Ah, so 120hz over HDMI is eventually realistic. I had thought hardware limitations were likely a factor.
Yeah, my receiver is like 1.2 or something. Got it back in 2006.

If I could just eliminate this tearing on my screen I'd be happy. I don't NEED the 120fps. It sounds far off regardless of what I purchase.

I was expecting that when I enabled the "smooth motion" feature on my TV it essentially goes into "120hz mode", which would allow me to eliminate the tearing at the very least.
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Old 02-19-2013, 02:11 PM
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I don't know of any way to make a cloned display not use the same refresh rate. I also don't know of any "good" reason to have 120hz on your monitor. Can you see the difference between 120hz and 60hz? Most people likely can't tell 30 from 60.
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Old 02-19-2013, 03:25 PM
 
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" Most people likely can't tell 30 from 60."

30 to 60 is easy to see. Most people just don't know enough about the tech side to know that the nasty 30hz judder is what they are finding unpleasant, so they can't tell you that 30hz is too slow. Man, it's like 80% of my time in this subforum is spent on correcting specifically your misinformation. We see brand new users create threads here all the time "Why my console make all stuttery!?", with the result being that 30hz 360/PS3 renders on their new plasma/LCD are suddenly a lot more juddery that their recently replaced CRT. They just didn't have the words or background to understand why.


"but from what I'm understanding -- there is no way to truly display 120fps on my monitor."

Correct, but it shouldn't be that way. The limit that you are running in to is that HDMI that you find on current TVs doesn't officially accept 120hz inputs yet. In one special case, they kind of do though: 720p/60 3D. Two 60hz frames = 120hz. As John Carmack pointed out, there is no reason on the hardware level that video card drivers could not abuse the 3D spec to spit out 120hz 2D video. The user would just need to turn on 3D mode for their TV, but not put the glasses on. The support just hasn't been written.
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Old 02-19-2013, 04:35 PM
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As far as I am aware there are no current consumer grade HDtv's that accept and properly display a 120Hz signal.

This will be big news if/when it happens.

Jason
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Old 02-19-2013, 04:36 PM
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Ohh, so 30hz looks fine on CRT but not on plasma/LCD?

I said "most" not all, maybe you should take a look at your reading comprehension you angry, angry, lil man.
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Old 02-19-2013, 07:30 PM
 
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"Ohh, so 30hz looks fine on CRT but not on plasma/LCD?"

Obviously, yes. A new frame at 30hz takes two fields to update on an interlaced 60hz CRT. In effect you are getting new information every update. The result is smoother motion than a progressive 60hz panel that just shows you the same frame twice.

Seriously dude, you've now been around here long enough that you should know that I am not the person to compete with on applied technical knowledge. You will lose every time. You have also now been around here long enough that people should be getting a feel for your high error rate.

Also too, get some new personal insults. You already tried that one without success.
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Old 02-20-2013, 07:44 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by macks View Post

I don't know of any way to make a cloned display not use the same refresh rate. I also don't know of any "good" reason to have 120hz on your monitor. Can you see the difference between 120hz and 60hz? Most people likely can't tell 30 from 60.

As another user pointed out, 30 to 60fps (or Hz) is very noticeable. Very.

And I also can tell the difference between a smooth 60hz and a smooth 120hz. I have an Acer monitor that supports true 120hz input and when I play PC games on it I can notice the extra frames. Beyond 120, I don't believe I would be able to. Perhaps only in very high motion scenes.

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Originally Posted by darklordjames View Post

" Most people likely can't tell 30 from 60."
"but from what I'm understanding -- there is no way to truly display 120fps on my monitor."

Correct, but it shouldn't be that way. The limit that you are running in to is that HDMI that you find on current TVs doesn't officially accept 120hz inputs yet. In one special case, they kind of do though: 720p/60 3D. Two 60hz frames = 120hz. As John Carmack pointed out, there is no reason on the hardware level that video card drivers could not abuse the 3D spec to spit out 120hz 2D video. The user would just need to turn on 3D mode for their TV, but not put the glasses on. The support just hasn't been written.

Ah yes. I've heard of the 720p/120hz 3D trick. Unfortunately my TV is not 3D, but I think I'd prefer the 1080p over the 120hz anyway.

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Originally Posted by DaGamePimp View Post

As far as I am aware there are no current consumer grade HDtv's that accept and properly display a 120Hz signal.

This will be big news if/when it happens.

Jason

I hope this is something we'll eventually see, but I can understand why manufacturers are not rushing to pump out this tech -- there is little to no content in true 120hz from what I know of. Outside of what I can render on my PC, and not many people use a TV for a computer monitor.
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I don't know of any way to make a cloned display not use the same refresh rate.

This is kind of where I stand right now. I know that I unfortunately will not attain 120hz on this monitor, but I would like to eliminate my tearing at least. Unless there is different cloning software outside of the NVIDIA software, I might have to lower my refresh rate to 60 while I'm using that monitor. It would be nice if it downgraded it or had a way to prevent tearing, but I can't think of anything that could do that.
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Old 02-20-2013, 09:04 AM
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Originally Posted by WeApOn View Post

As another user pointed out, 30 to 60fps (or Hz) is very noticeable. Very.

And I also can tell the difference between a smooth 60hz and a smooth 120hz. I have an Acer monitor that supports true 120hz input and when I play PC games on it I can notice the extra frames. Beyond 120, I don't believe I would be able to. Perhaps only in very high motion scenes.

I don't have a good explanation for it but 60hz on 120hz TV's looks bad. If you go to the store and compare a normal 60hz TV to a 120hz TV set to 60hz. The 120hz TV looks horrible, even with fairly slow paced motion.

Maybe my opinion of people is low in thinking that they can't tell the difference between 30fps and 60fps, maybe they just don't care. Do 360's still outsell graphics cards by a huge margin?

I doubt it will work but you might be able to try 70hz or 85hz and see if you get better results. As far as your screen tearing issue, VSync or a fps limiter might help. If you are just talking about when you whip around really fast in a fps then this probably won't help.
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Old 02-20-2013, 09:11 AM
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Originally Posted by macks View Post

I don't have a good explanation for it but 60hz on 120hz TV's looks bad. If you go to the store and compare a normal 60hz TV to a 120hz TV set to 60hz. The 120hz TV looks horrible, even with fairly slow paced motion.

No.

I game on a 120hz Samsung LCD TV using the PC input (1080p @ 60hz), which restricts processing and any frame interpolation, and it looks fantastic. There's no tearing with v-sync on.
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Old 02-20-2013, 09:12 AM
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I found your solution.

VGA cable to your TV.
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Old 02-20-2013, 09:59 AM
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I found your solution.

VGA cable to your TV.


the hell? That's more confusion than solution.
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Old 02-20-2013, 10:41 AM
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the hell? That's more confusion than solution.
VGA cable from video card to TV.

I'm not sure what is so confusing about this!
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Old 02-20-2013, 10:47 AM
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The old reliable analog connection on a digital display, gotta love it.

The only real issue with using VGA is most digital displays will disable some, most or all of your image calibration options.

The other thing to keep in mind is when using VGA you'll want to make sure your tracking/phase is optimized since not all digital displays get this right automatically.

Jason
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Old 02-20-2013, 12:03 PM
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I'm assuming you have thoroughly tested this at 120Hz, or are you guys trying to start smoke signals?
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Old 02-20-2013, 12:36 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by DaverJ View Post

No.

I game on a 120hz Samsung LCD TV using the PC input (1080p @ 60hz), which restricts processing and any frame interpolation, and it looks fantastic. There's no tearing with v-sync on.


This is what I'd like to achieve. I built a second room to do PC gaming in, but as I said before -- I'm cloning my main monitor(which is a true 120hz input monitor) so I'm actually passing the 120 frames to the TV and it results in bad tearing.
So far my only fix would be to change from 60hz to 120hz when I go between rooms. Or just deal with the tearing. But I hate tearing.

I'm sure it would look great at 60hz too, but I wish I had known that I wouldn't get true 120hz out of my TV when I bought it. But again, looks like no TVs are accepting 120hz in at this time.
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I found your solution.
VGA cable to your TV.

Technically I could do this, but at 60hz you mean, right? But I want to 'clone' my main monitor onto this Panasonic TV, and whether I'm using VGA or HDMI wouldn't really matter, right?
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The old reliable analog connection on a digital display, gotta love it.

The only real issue with using VGA is most digital displays will disable some, most or all of your image calibration options.

The other thing to keep in mind is when using VGA you'll want to make sure your tracking/phase is optimized since not all digital displays get this right automatically.

Jason

Would VGA actually give me a benefit here over HDMI? Doesn't sound like it would be much different, unless I used it as a dedicated input for my PC?
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I'm assuming you have thoroughly tested this at 120Hz, or are you guys trying to start smoke signals?

Not sure what this is referring to. I have sent 120hz to my TV over HDMI and notice bad tearing. Tonight I am going to put my computer to 60hz and test to make sure the tearing is gone.
Additionally, I'll enable the smooth motion to see how the "fake" 120hz looks on my TV. Unfortunately that would require me to disable Game Mode though, so gaming would be impossible due to input lag. But it would be interesting to see for a test how much different "fake" 120hz is versus true 120hz.
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Old 02-20-2013, 12:52 PM
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Using a vga connection it should/might be possible to do 1920x1080 at 120hz. Try it out and let us know what you find. I did find where a couple people on yahoo answers claimed this works. YMMV
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Old 02-20-2013, 12:59 PM
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In other words, you walk through the mine field before me, YMMV (lol). Always trust the internet!
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Old 02-20-2013, 01:06 PM
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Originally Posted by DaverJ View Post

No.

I game on a 120hz Samsung LCD TV using the PC input (1080p @ 60hz), which restricts processing and any frame interpolation, and it looks fantastic. There's no tearing with v-sync on.

It might have been an issue with that particular TV. I haven't looked at 120hz seriously since. I don't notice the issues with going from 24hz to 60hz though, which is what 120hz really came out to fix.(2x 60hz, 5x 24hz)
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Old 02-20-2013, 01:13 PM - Thread Starter
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Using a vga connection it should/might be possible to do 1920x1080 at 120hz. Try it out and let us know what you find. I did find where a couple people on yahoo answers claimed this works. YMMV

Unfortunately the only way for me to test this is to pull my TV from the room it is, or buy a 30ft VGA cable. Can you link to some articles where people were able to achieve this? I'd like to see some of the models. I would think the manufacturers would tout this, should it actually work.
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Old 02-20-2013, 01:34 PM
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Unfortunately the only way for me to test this is to pull my TV from the room it is, or buy a 30ft VGA cable. Can you link to some articles where people were able to achieve this? I'd like to see some of the models. I would think the manufacturers would tout this, should it actually work.

Reading it a second time it was someone running 1080p60 with the smoothvideo 120hz crap.

It looks like you are SOL. I still think you should try 85hz and 70hz and report back on if either works.
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Old 02-20-2013, 01:51 PM
 
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I'd respond to macks here, but man, I'm sure his comments speak for themselves. Yahoo Answers as a source worth sharing? Lulz.

Anyway: http://www.atrandom.iansharpe.com/setres.php

Until you find a better solution, you can look at a shortcut-based resolution/refresh switcher. That way you can at least switch between 1080p/60 and 1080p/120 by hitting a toggle on the desktop instead of digging through the control panels. That will get rid of your tearing without sacrificing 120hz all the time. It's not the most elegant solution, but it's the best I can think of at the moment.

What I'd do? Keep it simple. Just use 60hz.
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Old 02-20-2013, 02:25 PM - Thread Starter
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I'd respond to macks here, but man, I'm sure his comments speak for themselves. Yahoo Answers as a source worth sharing? Lulz.

Anyway: http://www.atrandom.iansharpe.com/setres.php

Until you find a better solution, you can look at a shortcut-based resolution/refresh switcher. That way you can at least switch between 1080p/60 and 1080p/120 by hitting a toggle on the desktop instead of digging through the control panels. That will get rid of your tearing without sacrificing 120hz all the time. It's not the most elegant solution, but it's the best I can think of at the moment.

What I'd do? Keep it simple. Just use 60hz.

Thanks James! I will try out this program. I'm very hopeful this will help at least make toggling a less bothersome process. I agree that going through NVIDIA control panel each time would probably get old fast, and I'd eventually just settle for running 1080p/60.
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Old 02-21-2013, 12:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WeApOn View Post

This is what I'd like to achieve. I built a second room to do PC gaming in, but as I said before -- I'm cloning my main monitor(which is a true 120hz input monitor) so I'm actually passing the 120 frames to the TV and it results in bad tearing.
So far my only fix would be to change from 60hz to 120hz when I go between rooms. Or just deal with the tearing. But I hate tearing.

I'm sure it would look great at 60hz too, but I wish I had known that I wouldn't get true 120hz out of my TV when I bought it. But again, looks like no TVs are accepting 120hz in at this time.
Technically I could do this, but at 60hz you mean, right? But I want to 'clone' my main monitor onto this Panasonic TV, and whether I'm using VGA or HDMI wouldn't really matter, right?

Would VGA actually give me a benefit here over HDMI? Doesn't sound like it would be much different, unless I used it as a dedicated input for my PC?

I think some here are confused regarding the VGA discussion as that still will not yield a 120Hz input -> 120Hz output solution on any current consumer level HDtv's AFAIK.

You likely know this but... if you clone then you are sending the same exact 'locked' signal to both displays, if you run one as extended then you can send different resolutions and refresh rates.

However...

You can always leave them both connected on different outputs from the graphics card and have them set individually (tv @ 60hz / monitor @ 120hz) and then simply leave one disabled while the other is in use (so a swap where they are not both active at the same time). Your driver controls should allow for this set-up and it should be a click or two to swap them (at least it is on AMD drivers, I have not used Nvidia drivers for about a year).

On a digital display the main benefit for VGA would possibly be less input lag (as been mentioned). Also with VGA the level (0-255) and colors (RGB) can be set properly for you providing the particular display handles it as it should (some displays require a renaming of the input used to do this but generally speaking the VGA connection should handle this properly, at least it has on most of the displays I have worked with over the last several years).

In the early days of flat panel digital displays the VGA connection was usually superior for gaming once set-up and adjusted properly, now it varies by display make/model.

Best of luck,
Jason
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