What should I buy for movies and 3D gaming - AVS Forum
View Poll Results: Which one should I get given that I'll mostly be watching movies and 3D gaming
Projector 1 50.00%
LG passive 3D 0 0%
Samsung LCD active 3D 0 0%
Plasma (so automatically active afaik) 1 50.00%
Voters: 2. You may not vote on this poll

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post #1 of 18 Old 05-11-2013, 01:06 AM - Thread Starter
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Hi guys !
First of all, I apologize for reusing the same op I used elsewhere. But I want as many points of view as possible so...
Here's the thing. I've been using 3Dvision since 4 years now, and I must say that I'm quite pleased with the result on recent video games. I moved to Canada last year, and didn't bring my stuff. I bought a laptop with a SLi of GTX680m though, and as I watch quite a lot of show and movies, I decided to buy a bigger display than my 17" laptop screen (I already have 3d vision, but the emitter in built in the computer, so I don't know if some of the hacks to use 3dvision on TVs or projs will work).
I'm willing to spend up to around 1500$ for a 3D 1080p >=50" display, but I have no idea what to buy (hdtv or projector ?). What I know though is that I definitely WILL see the 720p, so I really wanna avoid 720p tvs/proj.
I heard that passive 3Dtv are better than active ones for stuff like movies, and that they might also be better for gaming due to the fact that we can't play at 1080p 60fps/eye on active sets (afaik it is limited to 30fps/eye at 1080p) and that - even if it's relative I suppose - most people don't seem to notice the interlacing on LG TVs. Am I right ?
Also I'm afraid that due to the fact that the resolution is fixed at 1080p, on big screens games will look "too big" (I'm not talking about picture quality, I'm talking about having a small FOV, for example in third person view the character would be probably as big as me on a 60", and any HUD would be super huge). Is there a way to scale down games, ie see more on the sides / above (I know this would be the case on, say, a 4k TV, but is there really no way of having this FOV while keeping 1080p ?). I've never had a display >24", so maybe it's not really a problem.
And finally I'm not really sure if I should get a plasma TV (a good thing is that my room's is dimly lit), an LCD TV or a projector, since they all seem to have their pros and cons.

So far, here's what I (think I) found :
• For TVs, the best choices are LGs for passive displays and Samsung for active ones. I've read that LG's passive was better than Samsung's active to watch movies, but I really don't know which one is best for gaming. Also I really don't understand what TV manufacturers are doing. LG has made like 10 different models in two years (lm6200, lm6400, lm6700, lm7600, lm8600, la6200, la...), is there one that I should choose in particular given how I'm gonna use the TV ? The 7600 and LAxxxx series seem to the easiest to find though, probably because they're the most recent ones (but am I gonna notice the difference between an lm6200 and a 7600 / la6200 ? Because if there isn't, http://accessories.dell.com/sna/products/Video_Conferencing/productdetail.aspx?c=ca&l=en&s=dhs&cs=cadhs1&sku=A6813236 might be a good offer :s). Also, should I go for the 240 Hz models if possible ? (I know it won't really change much when gaming since it's limited to 60 anyway)
• For projectors, I'm not really sure, but I think benq's w1070 can display 1080p at 120Hz, but I'm not sure (if it helps I have displayport and hdmis on my PC, so if there is any projector that needs 2 hdmi to do 1080/120 my pc can do it). I'll be sitting at about 6-7 ft from the display so apparently the w1080st is a better choice, at least according to http://www.projectorcentral.com/BenQ-W1070-projection-calculator.htm (the w1080st is 120" from 2m, while the w1070 is 70", and I heard that for movies at least in 3D it's good to have a screen as big as possible)
• While projectors might have a flexible display size and afaik can do 1080p/120hz, they die after 2-3 years, are somewhat noisy and most can't do 2D -> 3D conversion on the fly (I heard LG tvs were very good at that). But for some reason I keep reading that if gaming is going to be part of the equation, DLP should really be considered.
• On recent displays, response time is no longer a problem, since they all have at least some kind of Gaming mode. (I hope it's true)
• I don't really need a Smart TV since my computer will be hooked up to it.
• Everybody told me that the bigger, the better, ie that if I have the choice between a 50" at x$ and a 60" at x+200 $, the 200$ plus is really worth it.
• I should not wait for 4k, because we won't see decent 4k 3d gaming before 1. hdmi 2.0 is out and 2. it's popular enough to drop below 2k, which is not to be expected before 2-3 years.

I'm not gonna import from the US (too many taxes), so it has to be available on one of the websites referenced by http://www.shopbot.ca . (I'm saying this because it looks like it's more expensive here than in the US (you can lol at http://www.shopbot.ca/pp-lg-55lm8600-lg ... 74312.html ), and a few US models are not available in Canada and vice-versa)

Thank you very much !

PS : Apparently the LA6200 models have an input lag of 30 ms mini. I might have been wrong when I said that input lag had been eliminated on current TVs.
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post #2 of 18 Old 05-11-2013, 12:22 PM
 
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"Apparently the LA6200 models have an input lag of 30 ms"

30ms of lag is pretty normal. 16ms is pretty much the minimum on a fixed-pixel display. Every display that I've had come through this house over the last 8 years has been right around 30ms in lag. It's not enough to worry about. When you reach up in to the 50ms range is when input lag starts to become a problem.

For resolution, plan to run 720p/60 for your 3D gaming, with a bunch of AA. 1080p/30 3D judders so much that it is unwatchable.

The most important piece of information you seem to have left out. How much control do you have over ambient light in the room? Projectors are horrible when they have to fight with sunlight coming in the living room window. Plasma can have glare issues in the same case, but consistently gives me my favorite picture. LCD is the friendliest to bright rooms, but still has some pretty nasty motion issues.
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post #3 of 18 Old 05-11-2013, 12:42 PM - Thread Starter
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For resolution, plan to run 720p/60 for your 3D gaming, with a bunch of AA. 1080p/30 3D judders so much that it is unwatchable.
Yep, but as far as I understood this is the problem of active 3dtv. (Also with checkerboard or whatever it's called apparently it's possible to get 30 fps / eye which is decent for most 3D games since recent games at maxed out graphs will run at ~70 fps. I mean on my 120 Hz monitor I'm not really bothered by that when I'm not playing an online FPS, unless the fact that the 120 Hz monitor still displays at max 60fps / eye makes it smoother).
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How much control do you have over ambient light in the room? Projectors are horrible when they have to fight with sunlight coming in the living room window. Plasma can have glare issues in the same case, but consistently gives me my favorite picture. LCD is the friendliest to bright rooms, but still has some pretty nasty motion issues.
Yeah my room is dimly lit. There is only one window and if I put, say, a dark clothe on it my room will get totally dark.

Edit : Just saw http://www.blurbusters.com/zero-motion-blur/hdtv-refresh-overclocking/ . Anybody ever gave it a try ?
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post #4 of 18 Old 05-13-2013, 07:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by darklordjames View Post

"Apparently the LA6200 models have an input lag of 30 ms"

30ms of lag is pretty normal. 16ms is pretty much the minimum on a fixed-pixel display. Every display that I've had come through this house over the last 8 years has been right around 30ms in lag. It's not enough to worry about. When you reach up in to the 50ms range is when input lag starts to become a problem.

For resolution, plan to run 720p/60 for your 3D gaming, with a bunch of AA. 1080p/30 3D judders so much that it is unwatchable.

The most important piece of information you seem to have left out. How much control do you have over ambient light in the room? Projectors are horrible when they have to fight with sunlight coming in the living room window. Plasma can have glare issues in the same case, but consistently gives me my favorite picture. LCD is the friendliest to bright rooms, but still has some pretty nasty motion issues.

Some of the new projectors coming out can deal with a normal amount of ambient light without looking washed out. My h6510bd does exceptionally well(think LCD) with a 100" screen. The Epson 3020 should be even better but suffers from higher input lag according to reviews and would put you over $1500 once you buy a screen/mount. The Benq w1070 might also be bright enough to fight off normal ambient light.

I don't care for 3d so I won't comment on that aspect but all 3 projectors above support 3d.

To clear up a few things:

Projectors don't die after 2-3 years, you just have to replace the lamp after a certain number of hours. My h6510bd is 7000 hours on eco mode. How long until you have to change it is dependent on how much you use it. Lamps can be had for less than $200 and sometimes less than $100.

My projectors have all been whisper quiet on eco mode. I've owned 3. The w1070 is supposed to have a slightly louder low fan noise(bad description sorry).

My projector actually does 2d -> 3d conversion, not that I use it.

As far as gaming goes DLP is normally better than LCD for input lag but there are some LCD's that are extremely good like the Epson 8350.

I wouldn't bet money on getting 1080p120 to work over hdmi but please let me know if it works.

At 2m away from the screen 120" might be too big. I sit 15' back from a 100" screen and it is huge.

Isn't nvidia 3d vision end of life now?
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post #5 of 18 Old 05-13-2013, 08:43 AM
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Nvidia 3dvision was probably end of life years ago, but it's the best 3D solution I've used to this day. I'm holding out until hdmi 2.0 before I upgrade, although the 780 mini Titan looks very interesting.
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post #6 of 18 Old 05-13-2013, 11:20 AM
 
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"Some of the new projectors coming out can deal with a normal amount of ambient light without looking washed out."

No they can't. This is a dishonest exaggeration and you know it. The darkest black can be on a projector is the brightness of your reflected ambient light. In a lit room both LCD and plasma will spit out vastly darker black levels, therefore look less far, far less washed out.

You like your projector? Great! I'm glad for you. Do not lie to others about its capabilities though.
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post #7 of 18 Old 05-13-2013, 01:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by darklordjames View Post

"Some of the new projectors coming out can deal with a normal amount of ambient light without looking washed out."

No they can't. This is a dishonest exaggeration and you know it. The darkest black can be on a projector is the brightness of your reflected ambient light. In a lit room both LCD and plasma will spit out vastly darker black levels, therefore look less far, far less washed out.

You like your projector? Great! I'm glad for you. Do not lie to others about its capabilities though.

It does not look washed out(faded). Granted maximum black level does suffer in the daytime. Plasma and LCD's suffer from glare and smaller screens though. smile.gif

The more light a projector puts out is the more it can overcome ambient light. If you see the ambient light instead of your projected image then it looks washed out.

If darkest black is exceedingly important to you then a projector should only be considered an option in a purpose built completely light controlled room.
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"The more light a projector puts out is the more it can overcome ambient light. If you see the ambient light instead of your projected image then it looks washed out."

No, the more light a projector puts out, the more light that projector puts out. Unless you've invented a light vacuum that we don't know about, then you are always seeing ambient light on a projector.

Thundercast - Walk in to your living room and look at one of your walls. All your lights are off and it still looks like a pretty medium gray? That right there is the darkest that black will be on a projected image. Turn on the projector and now even that is a light source further increasing your ambient light levels, and your minimum black level.

Projectors can give you a good image, and they can even work okay during the day. Macks' claim of overcoming ambient light and not washing out? Fabrication at best, though I'd place it closer to maliciously dishonest myself.
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Edit: Whatever I'm done.
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post #10 of 18 Old 05-13-2013, 04:30 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks for your help guys !
Yeah 3D vision - at least the second rev - is not EoL and more and more developpers are making their games 3Dvision-ready. Though it looks like it is EoL on TVs and projs where Nvidia seems to have replaced it with 3DTV play.
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Originally Posted by lurkor View Post

Nvidia 3dvision was probably end of life years ago, but it's the best 3D solution I've used to this day. I'm holding out until hdmi 2.0 before I upgrade, although the 780 mini Titan looks very interesting.
Yeah I'm afraid if I end up buying the current 1080@24fps/eye solutions I'll regret it. I guess I should try it in a shop or wherever I can before purchasing anything. It's really a bad compromise and I don't understand why a manufacturer wouldn't do hdmi 1.4b / displayport on his TV or proj and get all the gamers' money. But I guess with 4k they won't have the choice anymore and will have to upgrade, so I bet we're gonna start seeing displayport or HDMI 1.4b/2.0 on our TVs and proj in a few months - though I'm not sure whether the 1080p ones will be upgraded too for the sake of systematization of the production or not.
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post #11 of 18 Old 05-13-2013, 05:00 PM
 
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"What I know though is that I definitely WILL see the 720p, so I really wanna avoid 720p tvs/proj."
"Yeah I'm afraid if I end up buying the current 1080@24fps/eye solutions I'll regret it."

This kind of thinking leads to never actually buying anything and always waiting for the next cool thing that is "just around the corner". In this case, you're waiting for 1080p/60 3D, which isn't even officially spec'd out yet for HDMI, meaning actual products supporting it are even further out.

In regards to 720p/60 3D? The resolution drop isn't as drastic as you would expect. Models resolve about the same between 720p and 1080p, as they are still coming from 720p consoles for the most part. Textures are a touch blurrier, but not in any way that would be noticeable without running the two resolutions side by side. The more intensive AA that you can run on the lower resolution takes care of a lot of the edge issues. In addition, your stereo image doesn't line up pixel-perfectly eye-to-eye. This means that while your vertical resolution is still 720p, perceptual horizontal resolution is closer to 1280 x 1.5, or 1920. Overall, 720p/60 3D feels a lot closer to 900p in practice.

Get a TV now, and run 720p/60 3D and 1080p/60 2D.

Every LG passive display I've looked at has a lot of cross-talk. Every active LCD I've looked at has significantly less, though still commonly seen.. I've only noticed cross-talk on my Samsung active plasma in the most extreme of high-contrast situations. Cross-talk will do more to destroy perceived resolution than the drop from 1080p to 720p will.
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post #12 of 18 Old 05-13-2013, 05:39 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by darklordjames View Post

"What I know though is that I definitely WILL see the 720p, so I really wanna avoid 720p tvs/proj."
"Yeah I'm afraid if I end up buying the current 1080@24fps/eye solutions I'll regret it."

This kind of thinking leads to never actually buying anything and always waiting for the next cool thing that is "just around the corner". In this case, you're waiting for 1080p/60 3D, which isn't even officially spec'd out yet for HDMI, meaning actual products supporting it are even further out.
Actually that's not true. HDMI 1.4b has been around for two years, TV manufacturers just have no interest in upgrading their TVs / proj with that since I'm not even sure the proportion of people who'll use the 1080/60 3D represent 0.1% of the market. It could be more if they tried to use it as an argument, but for now I don't know anybody else who plays in 3D on anything else than a monitor. I could be wrong, and you're right when you say that I might end up not buying anything, since two years ago when 1.4b was released everybody expected TV and proj manufacturers to release 120 Hz input displays. But I really suspect that with the emergence of 4K they will have no choice but to upgrade since 4k is theoretically 4x the size of 1080p and therefore if 1080p is already "limited", there's no way they'll keep using old hdmi 1.4 (actually all the 4K proj I've seen so far have displayport, except the Sony).
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In regards to 720p/60 3D? The resolution drop isn't as drastic as you would expect. Models resolve about the same between 720p and 1080p, as they are still coming from 720p consoles for the most part. Textures are a touch blurrier, but not in any way that would be noticeable without running the two resolutions side by side. The more intensive AA that you can run on the lower resolution takes care of a lot of the edge issues. In addition, your stereo image doesn't line up pixel-perfectly eye-to-eye. This means that while your vertical resolution is still 720p, perceptual horizontal resolution is closer to 1280 x 1.5, or 1920. Overall, 720p/60 3D feels a lot closer to 900p in practice.
Yep given how people are enthusiastic about gaming on 3D proj I suppose I should try it before making any decision.
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Get a TV now, and run 720p/60 3D and 1080p/60 2D.

Every LG passive display I've looked at has a lot of cross-talk. Every active LCD I've looked at has significantly less, though still commonly seen.. I've only noticed cross-talk on my Samsung active plasma in the most extreme of high-contrast situations. Cross-talk will do more to destroy perceived resolution than the drop from 1080p to 720p will.
Yep, but I don't know which active 3D to get. The Panasonic ST50 are supposedly very good, but I can't find them anymore (ST60 are everywhere) and they don't seem to support all of the 3D format like checkerboard. I haven't really been considering Samsung as I read many times that they had much higher input lag than any other brand, at least on the ES series.
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"and they don't seem to support all of the 3D format like checkerboard"

Checkerboard support is pointless. All you need is the HDMI standard top-bottom and cheat format of side-by-side.


"I haven't really been considering Samsung as I read many times that they had much higher input lag than any other brand"

My Panasonic LCD and plasma, LG plasma, and now Samsung plasma have all clocked in at right around 33ms / two frames using the automatic Rock Band 2 calibration with the guitar sensor. It's not a perfect test, but it's the same test that I have run on all of the displays. Results would scale amongst themselves, if the baseline calibration number is off by X ms. It's not 2006 anymore where it was easy to find 80ms in lag on a display. Everybody worth mentioning will give you a display that will get you under two frames of lag.

The ST30/ST50 are old, just like the 64" Samsung D550 that I roll. Their replacements are what you want to look at, being the ST60 and E550, likely to be the F550 shortly. That is, if you are leaning toward plasma and want the newest thing.
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post #14 of 18 Old 05-13-2013, 07:41 PM
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Originally Posted by darklordjames View Post

The ST30/ST50 are old, just like the 64" Samsung D550 that I roll. Their replacements are what you want to look at, being the ST60 and E550, likely to be the F550 shortly. That is, if you are leaning toward plasma and want the newest thing.

I was considering the ST60 to replace my downstairs main TV, but this thread caused some concern.

Console gamers curious/interested in PC gaming? Click here.
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post #15 of 18 Old 05-14-2013, 12:53 AM
 
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That's some pretty nasty lag there. I thought this was finally a solved problem! Why would Panasonic regress on this most basic of functionality? Gah.

Thunder - Go look at the Samsung E550. Obviously do your due diligence on it and go read some threads on it in the plasma subforum, but it's a good starting point for narrowing down displays. I picked it's predecessor last year for a reason. smile.gif
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post #16 of 18 Old 05-14-2013, 09:50 AM
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Something I've been curious about for years, but never actually tried is an LG passive (or Vizio) with a Zalman monitor .inf or edid transplant for 3d gaming. The old Zalmans supported passive 3Dvision natively while preforming and looking very nice at 1080/60 3D. They also had good support with pdvd using micro-polarizer format. It slipped my mind for a while, but this thread has refreshed the notion. I suppose I'll look into it later tonight unless I find something better to do.



It looks like someone else has made it work, and it doesn't sound hard at all. It was done a year ago, but I fired up the old Zalman and Nvidia still supports it.

http://3dvision-blog.com/7163-make-your-passive-3d-monitor-or-3d-hdtv-work-with-3d-vision/

Anyways, it may be another option for those who prefer passive style. Whether your receivers will pass it through is another matter.
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post #17 of 18 Old 05-16-2013, 10:29 AM
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I bought a cheap new model Vizio to see for myself, and it works well with the Acer inf that adds hdmi sound. The "sweet spot" viewing angle has been shifted by about 15-20 degrees off from the standard, but nothing a tilting wall mount can't fix. Also the passive glasses must be worn upside down in gaming (but not in movies) since the polarity has been reversed. A quick tomb raider benchmark pulled an average high 30's fps on ultra (over 50 with high settings) in 3D with a single 660ti at 1080/60 resolution. Not bad I'd say for a few minutes work, and the colors are beautiful.

I haven't tried it with a receiver yet, but so far so good. It's a pity Nvidia won't natively support the passive 3D TVs with old 3Dvision, but I can understand why.
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post #18 of 18 Old 05-16-2013, 02:43 PM - Thread Starter
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I tried many TVs yesterday, among which the samsung 7500 and 8500. They have a TERRIBLE input lag. We played with all the different settings, so really unless you wanna play minecraft (and even then), there's no way you can game on these TVs (what made it worse was to let the laptop screen on. My character would start moving on the TV AFTER it had stopped moving on the laptop. The ST60 did better, but I'd still estimate the input lag to be at best between 50 and 100ms. Surprisingly the 24 fps / eye is actually doable as long as you're not playing an online FPS; for anything else really it's perfectly ok (though I would say that it was a bit felt when playing crysis online). The reason why is actually pretty simple I guess : it's not as if we ran BF3 at maxed out settings and AA at >120 fps, it keeps dropping at 70-60 during firefights, so if you played it in 3D (not that playing an online FPS in 3D is a good idea anyway) you shouldn't really see a HUGE difference between the TV and the monitor unless you have a quad SLI of 680 (really the only moments I felt the limitation was when I made sudden moves ie anything causing motion blur). So yeah while the fps limitation on TV is a bit bothersome, it is far from big such a big problem as the input lag. Because yup, I couldn't find any TV where the input lag was not making gaming on TV a no no.
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