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post #1 of 428 Old 09-17-2013, 03:11 PM - Thread Starter
 
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http://arstechnica.com/gaming/2013/09/gabe-newell-linux-is-the-future-of-gaming-new-hardware-coming-soon/
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Gabe Newell, the co-founder and managing director of Valve, said today that Linux is the future of gaming despite its current minuscule share of the market.

That seems hard to believe, given that Newell acknowledged Linux gaming generally accounts for less than one percent of the market by any measure including players, player minutes, and revenue. But Valve is going to do its best to make sure Linux becomes the future of gaming by extending its Steam distribution platform to hardware designed for living rooms.

Newell made his comments while delivering a keynote at LinuxCon in New Orleans. "It feels a little bit funny coming here and telling you guys that Linux and open source are the future of gaming," Newell said. "It's sort of like going to Rome and teaching Catholicism to the pope."

Presumably that also means the resurgence of OpenGL vs the DX11 API. Gabe has been on a tear ever since he's had a falling out MS and where they decided to shift the PC Gaming market, and he's showing no signed of letting up it appears. Games for Windows Live, Win8 and the increasingly intergrated DX seems to have gotten under his skin, as well as MS's push towards walled devices.

It also might not be so crazy either when you factor in that Android and iOS are both Linux platforms using OpenGL, as well as Sonys systems (anyone got info on Nintendo's API?).

For the first time in a long time most development is happening on Linux derivatives and OpenGL renders. Is Major platform and PC gaming the next to move there?
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post #2 of 428 Old 09-17-2013, 05:53 PM
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Hey Tyrant:

I don't want to pirate your thread. But Gabe Newell also confirms what you are saying with confirmation that HL3 is in development for multiple platforms (PC, current gen consoles, nextgen consoles)...including their own. I suspect their own will be Linux based.

“I can’t confirm all too much since the development is still in early stages, but for now I can confirm that we are going to release on both current and next generation consoles and we will also release the game on our own platform exclusively for PC and Mac… We hope to have the first trailer ready for E3 2014, which we (after several times not attending) will finally come back to.”

http://gamerant.com/half-life-3-release-date-2014-pc-xbox-one-ps4/
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post #3 of 428 Old 09-18-2013, 06:40 AM
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Intel and Nvidia have both made great strides to increase the performance of their GPU drivers and given the advances in GPU/CPU/Memory that are coming in the next three years, we're going to see big performance increases on the hardware side. I myself use Linux on a daily basis and it's very much a solid choice for gaming if the hardware and software is right. No, it's not on par with Windows yet, but it can get there if more hardware companies get behind Linux. The big problem right now is audio as there isn't much in the way of audio drivers - everything pretty much comes from a single batch of driver code put together for a specific chip - for Linux and companies just aren't putting in the effort to create them though I suspect that may change as Linux gains serious traction in the Asian/Chinese markets.
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post #4 of 428 Old 09-18-2013, 01:26 PM
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Whenever I see him pounding the Linux drum, I keep getting reminded of this article. Linux is a fine OS for certain purposes, but I also highly doubt it'd ever get much traction on the desktop. Future? Maybe. But a far-off future littered with many changes.

And yes, I know I say that at the risk of getting mauled by the Linux diehards.
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post #5 of 428 Old 09-18-2013, 02:42 PM
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Once upon a time we had DOS. And DOS sucked as a gaming OS. Windows 95 and DirectX brought about harmony.....harmony that people wanted and loathed at the exact same time.....and much in the same way that "Law and Order" gives you a peace of mind, it also took away some freedoms and locked you into an API structure.

For the longest of times you had two os's.....Windows and MacOS. Then the alsorans (for gaming, that is).

Now you've got four: Windows, MacOS, iOS and Android.

Linux Why?? Half Life 3 isn't going to matter, it'll probably underwhelm and be overshadowed by other games, like so many other games that "take too long to come out of the kitchen"......
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post #6 of 428 Old 09-19-2013, 08:18 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by HeadRusch View Post

Now you've got four: Windows, MacOS, iOS and Android.

Don't forget that 3 out of those 4 already run on modified Linux kernels and generally use OpenGL for rendering. Sound on Linux needs to come a long, long way to meet AVS standards, but OpenGL has generally finally caught back up to DX as a legitimate option, and in some cases is even more efficient.

Stranger things have happened, but then again if you told me MS would be planning on killing and transitioning out of the consumer desktop 5-6 years ago I would have laughed as well.

Times are a changing.
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post #7 of 428 Old 09-19-2013, 09:47 AM
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More about Linux, eh?

*yawn*


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post #8 of 428 Old 09-19-2013, 10:04 AM
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Originally Posted by Scott Simonian View Post

More about Linux, eh?

*yawn*

Gabe's been throwing this crap around ever since Windows 8 came out, because he's worried that the Windows Store will compete with Steam. It was the motivation behind the big Linux Steam push that accomplished nothing other than to confirm that Linux really does have a 1% marketshare on PCs.
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post #9 of 428 Old 09-19-2013, 12:07 PM
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Originally Posted by TyrantII View Post

Don't forget that 3 out of those 4 already run on modified Linux kernels and generally use OpenGL for rendering. Sound on Linux needs to come a long, long way to meet AVS standards, but OpenGL has generally finally caught back up to DX as a legitimate option, and in some cases is even more efficient.

Stranger things have happened, but then again if you told me MS would be planning on killing and transitioning out of the consumer desktop 5-6 years ago I would have laughed as well.

Times are a changing.

You're right, I guess where I was going with this was..."Who needs this, and who wants this?" and the answer is "Gabe Newell and........"

....>???<<br />
I also forgot...whatever OS's that Sony/Microsoft/Nintendo run...although those are more Integrated Systemst han simply "software only" solutions...i think Gabe wants a ValveBox and a custom Linux OS......and the more gamers dev for Linux the more traffic his hardware offering will get.

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post #10 of 428 Old 09-19-2013, 03:46 PM
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Gabe's been throwing this crap around ever since Windows 8 came out, because he's worried that the Windows Store will compete with Steam. It was the motivation behind the big Linux Steam push that accomplished nothing other than to confirm that Linux really does have a 1% marketshare on PCs.

Oh I know the story. I'm just tired of hearing about it. Linux is irrelevant for gaming and will be for years to come.
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post #11 of 428 Old 09-20-2013, 12:20 AM
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Originally Posted by HeadRusch View Post

You're right, I guess where I was going with this was..."Who needs this, and who wants this?" and the answer is "Gabe Newell and........"

... and his cousins. I know this.

Gabe did fire shots, but it's only from a water gun at this point, which is a far cry from a gravity gun.

I'm looking forward to playing Half-Life 3 on Windows.
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post #12 of 428 Old 09-20-2013, 07:33 AM
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Is Gabe even relevant anymore?
I mean HL2 came out what 9 years ago?
It was a great game for it's time. But 9 years ago!

I was running Linux on my old laptop (Thinkpad T61 core 2 dou 1.8ghz, quadro nvs 140 128mb, 4gb ram, 128GB SSD) and it couldn't even play SD movies/YouTube with-out taring meanwhile if I booted back in windows 8 I could play anything and everything with-out issue.

I strongly doubt Linux will be highly relevant until a know nothing user can sit down and do what they can on windows 8 with out having to think about performance or which nvidia driver to choose from...

Those OS that use Linux (MacOS, iOS and Android.) are tooted as being some of the most user friendly OS's out there and I don't believe that's because there Linux, it's because huge amounts of money and energy has been put in to it.

I thoroughly enjoyed my experience with Linux but were just too many resolved issues for me.
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post #13 of 428 Old 09-23-2013, 07:34 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HeadRusch View Post

You're right, I guess where I was going with this was..."Who needs this, and who wants this?" and the answer is "Gabe Newell and............???

i think Gabe wants a ValveBox and a custom Linux OS......and the more gamers dev for Linux the more traffic his hardware offering will get.

Oh for sure. I think that’s precisely the point, that Valve/Gabe have based their business on an relatively open (gaming) platform (Windows) up till now and see the writing on the wall for where the MS is currently heading if Windows/DX remain the development environment. I guess the question is where gamers self-interests lie as well, and while a move to Linux does insure Valve gets to keep doing what they’re doing, I do see the positives for gamers as well.

The desktop PC is dying, and it’s no secret that MS will eventually be dropping it for SOC, walled off tablets and smartphones. Heck, even the corporate desktop / desktop solutions are on their way out as the industry moves to a cloud based service model for data and office applications (although this transformation will be exponentially slower). I can easily see a future where MS focuses DX gaming more on their own closed, walled off systems, with special partnerships with graphics manufactures similar to the Xbox; only across a variety of different hardware products.

And that’s the reason Valve is freaking out. Their entire business model (content delivery, videogames, videogame mods) is heavily leveraged on open systems and community involvement. Which is why they want to move away from walls going up, and cement PC gaming in a format where one company can’t decide to kill it off or wall it in.

The idea is to create an open PC gaming system with hardware that is utilized much more for one thing, rather than using MS Windows that also does games. To bring some of the efficiency and stability of consoles to PC gaming, while also making it much more open and gaming focused than DX/Windows. If it works or not, that’s the question. It’s going to be an uphill battle for sure.
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Is Gabe even relevant anymore?
I mean HL2 came out what 9 years ago?
It was a great game for it's time. But 9 years ago!

I strongly doubt Linux will be highly relevant until a know nothing user can sit down and do what they can on windows 8 with out having to think about performance or which nvidia driver to choose from...

Those OS that use Linux (MacOS, iOS and Android.) are tooted as being some of the most user friendly OS's out there and I don't believe that's because there Linux, it's because huge amounts of money and energy has been put in to it.

Episode 2 was only 5 years ago (same as HL1-HL2)

smile.gif

I do think the Steam Box would have to be a complete gaming platform (OS), but my guess is anything that would run in the Steambox UI/OS would run in barebones Linux. Valve would be stupid to just release a box that runs a vanilla Linux and say “Now go game”. They’d be building an Android/iOS platform like google or apple did, but it would be focused on gaming. With their view on community projects/mod’s I also wouldn’t be surprised to see it as editable as Android, where the community could make a billion different flavors and let others pick and choose their flavor of the OS / functionality.
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what they can on windows 8 with out having to think about performance or which nvidia driver to choose from

We’re already in that sad state on Windows, with frequent Nvidia/ATI Driver updates providing game specific hard coding to give us better performance across a range of cards. There’s also the chance of new updates breaking old hotfixes and causing your games performance to take a nosedive. There’s works, then there’s works well enough!
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post #14 of 428 Old 09-23-2013, 10:03 AM
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Well, they just announced SteamOS.

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post #15 of 428 Old 09-23-2013, 10:08 AM
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Well, they just announced SteamOS.

With full streaming of games, exactly what I thought they were pushing for, frickin knew it. Next announcement will be the hardware I'm assuming.


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post #16 of 428 Old 09-23-2013, 10:18 AM
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Worthless.
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post #17 of 428 Old 09-23-2013, 10:23 AM
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For you maybe. There are plenty of people out there, like me, who don't have their PC in the living room, or have an htpc. Something like this (as long as it's not stupidly overpriced) allows me to leave my PC in my room, and yet still game in my living room if I want to.


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post #18 of 428 Old 09-23-2013, 10:23 AM
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I don't know why I would want this.

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post #19 of 428 Old 09-23-2013, 10:42 AM
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“You can play all your Windows and Mac games on your SteamOS machine, too. Just turn on your existing computer and run Steam as you always have – then your SteamOS machine can stream those games over your home network straight to your TV!”

That's why I'd want it.
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post #20 of 428 Old 09-23-2013, 11:33 AM
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That's why I'd want it.

As long as it works as well as they say it will. How well all this works has yet to be proven.

As I say for most video gamey news/announcements..... Show me when it's done.
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post #21 of 428 Old 09-23-2013, 12:05 PM
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http://news.cnet.com/8301-1023_3-57604206-93/valve-fires-up-steamos-its-bid-for-living-room-pc-gaming/?part=rss&subj=news&tag=title

Why are all of these game companies fighting to control the living room? I don't know any adult who games there. Kids and grandkids on Nintendo...yeah. But I have always gamed in a dedicated room separate from the living room. Usually either the computer room or a man cave. I also don't know of a single person with a PC in the living room. I really don't get the living room strategy. Most people leave their living rooms unoccupied most of the time. So much so that the home building industry has stopped making them uniformly available in a lot of builds. Many homebuilders have morphed that space into "Great Rooms". And it is dominated by TV watching and casual family activities. IMO Gabe needs to keep Valve 100% focused on core PC gamers in PC gaming spaces.
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post #22 of 428 Old 09-23-2013, 12:08 PM
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I think the thing that is really going to need some convincing is why I need a piece of hardware / OS dedicated to Steam when in theory those functions could have just been offered as part of the Steam application.

I'm assuming "SteamBox" will be the upcoming announcement and it will be interesting to see what they can offer and at what price point. I have potential interest if they really nail this on all fronts and make a perfect media box / networked gaming device and integrate with things like wireless xbox controller and stuff like that.

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post #23 of 428 Old 09-23-2013, 12:38 PM - Thread Starter
 
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http://news.cnet.com/8301-1023_3-57604206-93/valve-fires-up-steamos-its-bid-for-living-room-pc-gaming/?part=rss&subj=news&tag=title

Why are all of these game companies fighting to control the living room? I don't know any adult who games there. Kids and grandkids on Nintendo...yeah. But I have always gamed in a dedicated room separate from the living room. Usually either the computer room or a man cave. I also don't know of a single person with a PC in the living room. I really don't get the living room strategy. Most people leave their living rooms unoccupied most of the time. So much so that the home building industry has stopped making them uniformly available in a lot of builds. Many homebuilders have morphed that space into "Great Rooms". And it is dominated by TV watching and casual family activities. IMO Gabe needs to keep Valve 100% focused on core PC gamers in PC gaming spaces.

Exactly. But even more so Gaming rooms or PC Dens are becoming a thing of the past. Furthermore, Desktops are on their way out just as open, upgradable devices that used to be put in gaming rooms and PC dens are.

I won’t be surprised to smartphone sized hardware that has the performance of Nvidia Titan’s in 10 or so years, and Display tech moving away from “smart tech” to just being displays that can connect seamlessly with your portable PC-Phone. Even your tablet will just be a screen synching with your phone.

Upgradable computers are going the way of removable battery phones (eventually). You just buy a new, better one. But the problem remains for gamers and the Valve business strategy that the move will be terrible for both if you value building systems, upgrading, and customization. You’re beholden to the few device manufacturers and predetermined hardware.

The focus on the living room is just including some of those mobility benefits, just as they’re looking to somewhat standardize upgradable hardware (get enough to buy in, and developers will be able to target that hardware for better performance/efficiency).

They’re looking toward the future and they see the death of PC gaming due to the death of the PC desktop. They’re looking to step in now and shape it, rather than be left with nothing.
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post #24 of 428 Old 09-23-2013, 12:56 PM
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Perhaps this isn't the best place to ask this but you all seem to have a pretty good handle on the new valve announcements. I built
My PC about 6 years ago and have never hooked it up to my big screen plasma. I currently have a 8800gt video card, 4 gb ram, and a core 2 quad 6600, along with an non ssd. I know I would need a dvi to hdmi adapter but is my rig good enough to run on a HDTV at 1080p or would I see severe performance issues ? I ask this because if I want to PC game it sounds like I could dual boot the new steamos and have no need for a new steambox
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post #25 of 428 Old 09-23-2013, 02:11 PM
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This is a way bigger deal than just hardware. They're basically launching a platform, not just a box built on top of someone else's. It's a shot aimed right at the heart of Sony and MS. The only thing separating this from a PS4 is that the hardware isn't standardized, but it can effectively eliminate all of the cruft from the desktop OS that makes using a PC in your living room a pita. This is basically all I've ever wanted, a console platform where I can swap out the hardware at will.

It's an incredible concept, but it may take a few years to fine tune the execution. But they've theoretically broken the console cycle. I can't wait to see how this works out.
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post #26 of 428 Old 09-23-2013, 03:03 PM
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Perhaps this isn't the best place to ask this but you all seem to have a pretty good handle on the new valve announcements. I built
My PC about 6 years ago and have never hooked it up to my big screen plasma. I currently have a 8800gt video card, 4 gb ram, and a core 2 quad 6600, along with an non ssd. I know I would need a dvi to hdmi adapter but is my rig good enough to run on a HDTV at 1080p or would I see severe performance issues ? I ask this because if I want to PC game it sounds like I could dual boot the new steamos and have no need for a new steambox

DVI doesn't pass sound, so you would need to make sure you could run audio from the PC to an input on your TV - not impossible.

That said, your system should probably be able to run some older games at 1080p, and many current casual games too. Just don't expect constant 60fps, and you'll have to settle for dialing back graphics options.

I had a setup very similar to yours, and I did the DVI to HDMI adapter and ran stereo audio to my Samsung's DVI/HDMI2 port. With a X360 game controller, I played some older console games like the Prince of Persia 2008 reboot on the PC pretty well with this setup. But I wasn't super satisfied with it until I upgraded the PC to a more modern CPU/GPU/memory configuration.

Console gamers curious/interested in PC gaming?
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post #27 of 428 Old 09-23-2013, 03:31 PM
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+1 on BD2003's comment. Remember too...that Gabe Newell is also steering Valve down the VR path too. A great new VR development was posted by Chronoptimist in the Flat Panel General/OLED section. And I reposted his comment in the Oculus Rift thread in this HTPC section. Valve will be positioned very well to exploit the diverse hardware/display platforms that are emerging that will completely change the way we all play videogames.
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post #28 of 428 Old 09-23-2013, 03:57 PM
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The more I think about it, the bigger a deal I think this is going to be. They're building the perfect gaming platform to bridge the gap between our current world of closed ecosystems to one where the OS and platform is irrelevant. The thing I don't think most people are realizing is that this isn't a monopoly play - this has way more in common with android than traditional consoles.
It's free and open, anyone can build or sell hardware that runs it, and anyone can make software for it. And just like amazon can release an app/mp3 store on android, nothing is stopping EA from porting origin to SteamOS.

Why would valve even allow that, you ask? Same reason google released android - it's a platform that works especially well with their services, and they stand to make more money by capturing just a chunk of a larger pie, than owning the entirety of a smaller one.

If you're EA, where would you rather be? A platform that forces you to pay a licensing fee for every game you sell through their one and only content store (XBL/PSN), or one that allows you to implement your own store and cut out the middleman? A moderately successful living room platform of that design is going to attract a ton of publisher attention. Closed platforms simply can't survive in that world, and everyone will be forced to open up to everyone else, or risk extinction. They might fight it for a time, but the writing has been on the wall for a while now.
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post #29 of 428 Old 09-23-2013, 04:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bd2003 View Post

The more I think about it, the bigger a deal I think this is going to be. They're building the perfect gaming platform to bridge the gap between our current world of closed ecosystems to one where the OS and platform is irrelevant. The thing I don't think most people are realizing is that this isn't a monopoly play - this has way more in common with android than traditional consoles.
It's free and open, anyone can build or sell hardware that runs it, and anyone can make software for it. And just like amazon can release an app/mp3 store on android, nothing is stopping EA from porting origin to SteamOS.

Why would valve even allow that, you ask? Same reason google released android - it's a platform that works especially well with their services, and they stand to make more money by capturing just a chunk of a larger pie, than owning the entirety of a smaller one.

If you're EA, where would you rather be? A platform that forces you to pay a licensing fee for every game you sell through their one and only content store (XBL/PSN), or one that allows you to implement your own store and cut out the middleman? A moderately successful living room platform of that design is going to attract a ton of publisher attention. Closed platforms simply can't survive in that world, and everyone will be forced to open up to everyone else, or risk extinction. They might fight it for a time, but the writing has been on the wall for a while now.

I agree with the software/OS/platform implications in your comment. But how do you see that actually working in the hardware world? Wouldn't people still have to invest in another piece of Hardware (console or computer)? Or could one just setup a dual boot PC. SSD1 Boots to Windows version xxx. And SSD2 boots through the same hardware to SteamOS. One OS would be open. The other closed. Is that even practical...or would gamers have to make a choice of one over the other? Couldn't MS also do this with Win8 and XB1 OS (which is a Win8 derivative)?
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post #30 of 428 Old 09-23-2013, 05:39 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bd2003 View Post

The more I think about it, the bigger a deal I think this is going to be. They're building the perfect gaming platform to bridge the gap between our current world of closed ecosystems to one where the OS and platform is irrelevant. The thing I don't think most people are realizing is that this isn't a monopoly play - this has way more in common with android than traditional consoles.
It's free and open, anyone can build or sell hardware that runs it, and anyone can make software for it. And just like amazon can release an app/mp3 store on android, nothing is stopping EA from porting origin to SteamOS.

Why would valve even allow that, you ask? Same reason google released android - it's a platform that works especially well with their services, and they stand to make more money by capturing just a chunk of a larger pie, than owning the entirety of a smaller one.

If you're EA, where would you rather be? A platform that forces you to pay a licensing fee for every game you sell through their one and only content store (XBL/PSN), or one that allows you to implement your own store and cut out the middleman? A moderately successful living room platform of that design is going to attract a ton of publisher attention. Closed platforms simply can't survive in that world, and everyone will be forced to open up to everyone else, or risk extinction. They might fight it for a time, but the writing has been on the wall for a while now.

Yup forget shots, this is a howitzer fired right across the bow and exactly what they needed to do if this has any chance of catching on.

You don't even need a steam box. Have a gaming PC? Duel boot into the SteamOS for better performance and less bloat. Got a Intel X86 Mac? Duel boot into the SteamOS for better performance, stability, and less bloat. By going the OS route they'll also be addressing the major problems with Linux / driver / and API support will be going through them . Creating a gaming centric OS, they'll also always have a leg up on Windows / DX since Windows can't put all it's resources towards gaming by the nature of what it is.

If it really catches on, they'll also eventually be able to steer hardware more to the OS liking, and further gain performance / cost efficiencies out of the tech designed specifically for it as well (Android being the model there). But, 3rd party support (and MS moving to block them) could still kill it
Quote:
Originally Posted by barrelbelly View Post

I agree with the software/OS/platform implications in your comment. But how do you see that actually working in the hardware world? Wouldn't people still have to invest in another piece of Hardware (console or computer)? Or could one just setup a dual boot PC. SSD1 Boots to Windows version xxx. And SSD2 boots through the same hardware to SteamOS. One OS would be open. The other closed. Is that even practical...or would gamers have to make a choice of one over the other? Couldn't MS also do this with Win8 and XB1 OS (which is a Win8 derivative)?

For now dual booting will be the way to go while we still have Desktop PC's. But as the market continues to fracture and MS continues to focus on smartphones and tablets, I think the idea here is to keep the Desktop gaming PC alive with Valve taking over the platform. If Valve is successful Steamboxes that are upgradable and customizable like gaming rigs will carry the PC gamer torch long after the personal and corporate desktop PC has died and moved on to tablets/ smartphones / cloud services.
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