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post #1 of 24 Old 09-22-2013, 03:52 PM - Thread Starter
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I'm tired of console so I'm going to build a nice PC for gaming. So far this is my rig

CPU-17-4770k

Mobo-Asrock z87 extreme4

GPU-will be doing SLI,but waiting on AMD to release new GPU to see about prices

Anywho, you get the point after those three main parts.

I've been gaming on an xbox 360 with a G25 54" plasma. I've been told that a monitor will work a lot better for gaming. Then I learned about the 27"QNIX qx2710. it can be overclocked to at least 96Hz and most people get 120hz. The problem I'm worried about is the actual downgrade of PQ on the Qnix. I'm thinking the qnix will not be close to the PQ as the G25. Maybe I'm wrong though?

Another thing I've learned is that with a gaming computer with this much power would be pointless if I was running it on my plasma.

This gaming PC will be hooked up to a very nice 5.1 sound system 7001 deftech/xpa-5(pretty much a man cave home theater with modification room). I either need more options for monitors or a justication with the qnix.
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post #2 of 24 Old 09-22-2013, 04:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hummada View Post

I've been told that a monitor will work a lot better for gaming. Then I learned about the 27"QNIX qx2710. it can be overclocked to at least 96Hz and most people get 120hz. The problem I'm worried about is the actual downgrade of PQ on the Qnix. I'm thinking the qnix will not be close to the PQ as the G25. Maybe I'm wrong though?

Another thing I've learned is that with a gaming computer with this much power would be pointless if I was running it on my plasma.

For the most part you are limited to 60fps cap with the majority of TVs, but that's not really a bad thing. Some people prefer 120hz LCD monitors over TVs - be sure to check out the Lightboost threads.

But that said, gaming on a large TV is still pretty awesome IMO, especially if you are used to console gaming. Just make your TV isn't prone to IR or motion blur.
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post #3 of 24 Old 09-22-2013, 05:25 PM
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Hertz and fps are two separate things. wink.gif

There are no consumer level hdtv's that accept a signal higher than 60hz regardless of what ever moniker of "capability" they want to advertise. Only extreme FPS gamers and those who want 3D really need 120hz capability. That unless you just want the super stability of the 120hz for 2D viewing which would be real nice.

Anyway. I like the idea of using a plasma because I think more PC gamers need to wake up and move past the arbitrary 20-something inch monitor size limitation and get the big picture.

My Dual 18" LLT subs 120dB down to 10hz

 

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post #4 of 24 Old 09-22-2013, 05:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Simonian View Post

There are no consumer level hdtv's that accept a signal higher than 60hz regardless of what ever moniker of "capability" they want to advertise.
False, as of Year 2013. What you said was formerly true, but isn't true anymore. So please stop spreading myths.

See HDTV Refresh Rate HOWTO: True 120Hz from PC to TV

Also, some plasma displays also apparently supports true 120Hz from computer to TV, such as certain Panasonic plasmas.
They are listed in the Comments section at the bottom of the above link.

Also, new technology development to pay attention to: Recently, as of year 2012-2013, a few LCD's came out with ultrahigh-efficiency motion blur reduction strobe backlights that do not use motion interpolation. These actually manage to approach the motion resolution of a CRT. Basically, the LCD is kept in dark while it's refreshing, and the backlight is strobe-flashed briefly only on fully refreshed frames. So it flickers like a CRT/plasma and has the motion resolution of a CRT/plasma. They include the nVidia LightBoost strobe backlight, and the Sony's Game Mode low-lag Motionflow Impulse. These are the only two LCD's that have less motion blur (in Game Mode, and without interpolation) than the average plasma display in consumer territory. There are more in the professional industry, Eizo just announced their new interpolation-free strobe-backlight "240Hz" computer monitor using a VA panel (Eizo FDF2405W, page 15 of PDF manual reveals the strobe technology); the same as LightBoost and Sony's "Impulse" mode), but that's not targeted towards gamers.

There's another thread on AVSFORUM that covers the brand new Game Mode compatible high-efficiency motion blur reduction strobe backlight technologies. They literally do miracles to LCD motion resolution according to rave reviews. Motion resolution is improved by approximately 4x up to approximately an order-of-magnitude (e.g. for a specific speed of game-panning motion similiar to www.testufo.com/#test=photo -- the dramatic improvement in motion clarity is where there was 10 pixels of motion blurring, there now becomes only 1 pixel of motion blurring). That said, I should note that QNIX QX2710 (no strobe backlight, much more motion blur) and the Sony HDTV's (with strobe backlight) generally has better color quality than LightBoost LCD's, but it's noteworthy that certain LCD panels suddenly leapfrogged plasma in motion resolution.

For movie quality, I still recommend plasma, IPS or VA. But if computer gaming motion resolution is your kind of thing, and more important than color, nothing currently beats a LightBoost LCD (a whopping 12x more motion resolution than a 60Hz LCD monitor, and 6x more motion resolution than non-strobed LCD 120Hz -- the rave reviews linked above say it has less motion blur than Sony FW900 CRT computer monitors!)
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Rooting for upcoming low-persistence rolling-scan OLEDs too!

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post #5 of 24 Old 09-22-2013, 06:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Simonian View Post

I like the idea of using a plasma because I think more PC gamers need to wake up and move past the arbitrary 20-something inch monitor size limitation and get the big picture.

Hear hear! smile.gif

Console gamers that want to move into, or expand to the rhelm of PC gaming need to know that using a HDTV as their display and a gamepad like the X360 controller gives them most of everything the consoles offer, and a whole lot more. No longer are PC gamers stuck at a desk in an office chair.
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post #6 of 24 Old 09-22-2013, 09:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Rejhon View Post

False, as of Year 2013. What you said was formerly true, but isn't true anymore. So please stop spreading myths.

See HDTV Refresh Rate HOWTO: True 120Hz from PC to TV

Also, some plasma displays also apparently supports true 120Hz from computer to TV, such as certain Panasonic plasmas.
They are listed in the Comments section at the bottom of the above link.

Also, new technology development to pay attention to: Recently, as of year 2012-2013, a few LCD's came out with ultrahigh-efficiency motion blur reduction strobe backlights that do not use motion interpolation. These actually manage to approach the motion resolution of a CRT. Basically, the LCD is kept in dark while it's refreshing, and the backlight is strobe-flashed briefly only on fully refreshed frames. So it flickers like a CRT/plasma and has the motion resolution of a CRT/plasma. They include the nVidia LightBoost strobe backlight, and the Sony's Game Mode low-lag Motionflow Impulse. These are the only two LCD's that have less motion blur (in Game Mode, and without interpolation) than the average plasma display in consumer territory. There are more in the professional industry, Eizo just announced their new interpolation-free strobe-backlight "240Hz" computer monitor using a VA panel (Eizo FDF2405W, page 15 of PDF manual reveals the strobe technology); the same as LightBoost and Sony's "Impulse" mode), but that's not targeted towards gamers.

There's another thread on AVSFORUM that covers the brand new Game Mode compatible high-efficiency motion blur reduction strobe backlight technologies. They literally do miracles to LCD motion resolution according to rave reviews. Motion resolution is improved by approximately 4x up to approximately an order-of-magnitude (e.g. for a specific speed of game-panning motion similiar to www.testufo.com/#test=photo -- the dramatic improvement in motion clarity is where there was 10 pixels of motion blurring, there now becomes only 1 pixel of motion blurring). That said, I should note that QNIX QX2710 (no strobe backlight, much more motion blur) and the Sony HDTV's (with strobe backlight) generally has better color quality than LightBoost LCD's, but it's noteworthy that certain LCD panels suddenly leapfrogged plasma in motion resolution.

For movie quality, I still recommend plasma, IPS or VA. But if computer gaming motion resolution is your kind of thing, and more important than color, nothing currently beats a LightBoost LCD (a whopping 12x more motion resolution than a 60Hz LCD monitor, and 6x more motion resolution than non-strobed LCD 120Hz -- the rave reviews linked above say it has less motion blur than Sony FW900 CRT computer monitors!)

Awesome information! Much appreciated!
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post #7 of 24 Old 09-23-2013, 10:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Rejhon View Post

False, as of Year 2013. What you said was formerly true, but isn't true anymore. So please stop spreading myths.




Yeah...great. Okay. With hacks and other stuff. I'm sure the 99.99999999999% rest of the world isn't visiting BlurBusters.com on a regular basis. rolleyes.giftongue.gif

But thanks for the interesting info.

But basically the important part here for those of you still reading is that what I said up above about hdtv's it still 100% correct. biggrin.gif

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post #8 of 24 Old 09-23-2013, 09:40 PM
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Granted, the information is not yet currently widespread, except in certain forums like HardForum and OCN. There's also small amounts of media coverage (AnandTech, ArsTechnica, TFTCentral, Valve Software, etc.) so gradually, all the Blur Busters discoveries is becoming less and less BlurBusters specific. (BTW -- Michael Abrash of Valve even complimented me by email)

This forum title is "HTPC Gaming" which also has a concentration of people interested in 120Hz.
This forum site isn't "99.99999999999%". This forum SHOULD know. And you'd agree too. smile.gif

[Edit: Post #8000 FTW! Though, it took about ten years to go from 7000 to 8000. More than 7,000 of my posts was made in 1999-2002 when I was a moderator here at AVSFORUM.]
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post #9 of 24 Old 09-23-2013, 10:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Simonian View Post



Yeah...great. Okay. With hacks and other stuff. I'm sure the 99.99999999999% rest of the world isn't visiting BlurBusters.com on a regular basis. rolleyes.giftongue.gif

But thanks for the interesting info.

But basically the important part here for those of you still reading is that what I said up above about hdtv's it still 100% correct. biggrin.gif

OK so apparently it's important to you for us to think you are 100% correct.
You said:
"There are no consumer level hdtv's that accept a signal higher than 60hz regardless of what ever moniker of "capability" they want to advertise."

There was no mention on whether or not "hacks and other stuff" were needed, you did not stipulate that condition in your original comment. Mark Rejhon stated info and links that show there ARE consumer level hdtv's that very much do accept signals higher than 60hz.

Who is right and who is wrong? Seriously, I am trying to understand how your statement is still 100% correct when Rejhon shows evidence to the contrary. What did I miss?
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post #10 of 24 Old 09-24-2013, 12:42 AM
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The plasma seems to be the obvious choice to me. 120fps sounds nice but I don't think I'd want to trade it for the basics: picture quality and size. (That said, I have no experience with 120fps 2D, so I'd be happy to hear opinions otherwise as long as it's not in the form of an attack.) The exception would be if your plasma is set up such that you can't sit close to it. 54" isn't big if you're sitting far away from it. Personally, I use my gaming PC on a projector exclusively and I wouldn't want it any other way.

Do you have any interest in 3D?
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post #11 of 24 Old 09-24-2013, 06:23 AM - Thread Starter
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I went to bestbuy and looked at 1080p and 1400p apple monitors because that's all they had hooked up to a PC. 1400p did look better. Then I made the mistake of looking at the samsung 4k TV. If you haven't seen one then don't even look at it. It will make you sick how good it looks. But anywho,I've read 100s of pages about monitors and most gamers like the 120hz or144hz lightboost. Also what most of these guys say is that there is a huge difference from any HDTV compared to a monitor(though I don't know about an overclocked TV). It would be waisted power and money to buy a high end gaming rig for a 1080p plasma.

The only option for real 1400p 120hz gaming is the Qnix or X star monitors. Which is sad for 2013 tech and I can see why. You have to choose one with a sacrifice of resolution or smoothness. Then in a few years they actually make a monitor that does 1400p at 120hz and make a lot of $$$! For shits sake it's almost 2014 and this should have been done 5 years ago.

I have not thought about 3d and have not even looked into a projector yet.
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post #12 of 24 Old 09-24-2013, 06:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hummada View Post

It would be waisted power and money to buy a high end gaming rig for a 1080p plasma.

1080p plasmas are very high quality. With a high end gaming rig, I would think the goal is to pair it with a display that is the highest quality possible. In fact I think few gamers use 120hz or 144hz 2D lightboost. Naturally, if you're viewing 2D lightboost fan forums, they're all going to recommend 2D lightboost. They may be right, but we should get a second & third opinion.
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I have not thought about 3d and have not even looked into a projector yet.

Honestly, you should look into both of these.
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post #13 of 24 Old 09-24-2013, 07:06 AM - Thread Starter
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I agree about plasma. My G25 is awesome! I do need a monitor though because I'm getting off of this 10 year old Compaq windows XP PC with a ginormous monitor!!! lol!!!! I can't wait to actually have a good PC. Well,I can at least wait a few months. My final purchases will be the GPU and monitor and that will be end Dec.-Jan. So I'm very open minded to any changes with the whole rig. The only thing I've bought so far is the case.
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post #14 of 24 Old 09-24-2013, 10:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hawkwing View Post

Seriously, I am trying to understand how your statement is still 100% correct when Rejhon shows evidence to the contrary. What did I miss?

Simple. You cannot go ANYWHERE to get an hdtv that will accept a 120hz input.

That's it.

Oh and I don't care about being "100% correct and you must all believe me". I'm not that much of an a**hole. Gimme a break. I was being a smart ass. Yeesh.

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post #15 of 24 Old 09-24-2013, 01:04 PM
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Anyway, moving forward, let's ignore the past.

Whatever the past was, (mostly) un-marketed 120Hz 2D capability is is here today in several models in Best Buy and other stores.
This list also includes plasmas. Even though the NeoPDP is discontinued, several other 120Hz-capable TV's *ARE* currently in stores right now.

As a rule of thumb, frame sequential 3D @ 60Hz is electronically identical to 120Hz 2D mode, even though that is undocumented. The 3D fad trojan-horsed undocumented ability to do 120Hz 2D native input into many displays. Same Timings & Resolution; same numbers in ToastyX/PowerStrip/Linux modline/etc. It is not often part of the EDID, but it often works when the EDID is ignored and 120Hz is sent anyway. The majority of high-end computer users (e.g. HardForum and Overclock.net people) who have tried this said things are much smoother in 120Hz than 60Hz. The timings numbers (vertical/horizontal/porches/sync/dotclock) is actually the same in ToastyX CRU / PowerStrip / nVidia / Linux modeline / other custom resolution utilities. Thus, this results in a lot of 3D HDTV's at least do 120Hz during 720p, and a very few capable of 120Hz during 1080p.

Not side-by-side 3D, not checkerboard 3D, but frame-sequential 3D which is just simply the refresh rate being doubled to 120Hz in order to pass both left/right eye one after the other. (Every 1/120th second, left eye image, right eye image, left eye image, right eye image, and so on, in sync with shutter glasses). All refreshes evenly spaced apart 1/120sec apart. For displays supporting frame-sequential, several of them do it at full framerate (60Hz+60Hz = 120Hz), mainly at 720p, and sometimes at 1080p. The ToastyX/PowerStrip/Linux modelines numbers are EXACTLY the same for frame-sequential 3D 60+60, and for 2D 120. You simply put down the shutter glasses and run 2D 120Hz, and everything is quite noticeably smoother for HTPC Gaming (again, the title of this forum). Thus, the interchangeability means we've got more 120Hz-capable 2D displays out in the field than people realize. At this point, some audiences (e.g. HardForum people) are far more interested in gaming with 120Hz 2D than in 60Hz 3D, and a recent scientific blind test showed an overwhelming preference for 120Hz (86% of gamers).
Quote:
List of Plasmas, DLP, LCD that does 120fps @ 120Hz without frameskipping
(shurCool and TestUFO frameskipping tests)
Quote:
Successful:
Plasmas 120hz@720p,91hz@1440x1080,71hz@1920x1080, Full RGB, frame sequential 3D, 8bit color per channel
Panasonic 42PF50U
Panasonic 50PF50U
Panasonic 60PF50U
Panasonic 65PF50U

Plasmas 120hz@1080p, Full RGB, frame sequential 3D, 10bit per channel, scaler optional
Panasonic 42BT300U
Panasonic 50BT300U
Panasonic 65VX300U


Resolution: 1280x720 at 120Hz
Source: One of the success reports http://hardforum.com/showpost.php?p=1040143031&postcount=22
Plasmas models in same line: http://hardforum.com/showthread.php?p=1040149236&postcount=35
Quote:
Successful: Vizio e3d420vx
Resolution: 1920×1080 at 120 Hz
Source: http://120hz.net/showthread.php?852-Managed-to-force-120Hz-on-a-Vizio-e3d420vx
Quote:
Quote:
Confirmed: Seiki 4K HDTV
Resolution: 1920×1080 at 120 Hz
The brand new SEIKI 50″ HDTV with 4K resolution supports 1080p @ 120Hz natively (Multitool confirmed).
seiki4k_720p@133Hz-300x224.jpg
Quote:
Originally Posted by deadman5k 
Successful: Vizio M420SL not a 3d TV
Resolution: 1920×1080 at 120 Hz

Using a Asus 3D tv driver I was able to force a 120hz output with windows 7 and my Vizio M420SL system info screen displays 120hz vertical frequency as well as my Catalyst control center. This TV is not a 3D but does have a native LCD refresh rate of 120hz.

Thank you blurbusters for your very helpful information. It took all day to find the right question to ask the great google search engine but when I finally asked “force 120hz pc” I found this page and now I am in 120hz, 42 inch, goodness. Next trick is getting passive 3d working. Thanks again.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sadbuttrue 
Successful: Panasonic 50ST30 plasma
Resolution: 1280×720 @ 120hz.
Source: HardForum post (by sadbuttrue)

The OSD reports 60hz and 3D mode detected. Colours are slightly different but there is no 3D being applied. I have verified that it does show 120 unique frames. So, when you try outputting 120hz to your TV don’t assume the OSD is giving an accurate report. It may say 60hz yet actually be showing 120hz.
Quote:
Originally Posted by maarten12100 
Successful: Skyworth 39E780U UHD tv (china market model)
Resolution: 1080p @ 140Hz without frame skipping
Source: Overclock.net review by maarten12100

The overclock results:
UHD 3840×2160 was 30Hz max now 38Hz (up to 40Hz by reducing the extra pixels/blanking in the stream but with minor artifacting)
QFHD 2560×1440 was not there now 82Hz
HD 1920×1080 was 60Hz max now 140Hz (I checked with RRMT Refresh Rate Multi Tool and it actually did it without dropping)
QHD 1280×720 was 60Hz max now 254Hz (checked again with RRMT but it was too fast for my eyes then I took pictures and video)
(NOTE: Cost only $600 in China! Not available outside of China yet at this time.)
Quote:
Originally Posted by bobbitybob 
Successful:
- Sony KDL-50R550A 50″
- Sony KDL-60R550A 60″
- Sony KDL-70R550A 70″
Resolution: 720p @ 120Hz
Source: AVSFORUM post by bobbitybob
Quote:
Successful: Optoma GT270 DLP projector
Resolution: 1280x720 at 120 Hz
Source: http://hardforum.com/showthread.php?t=1780668
Note: Extra bonus: Enabling 3D mode also activates undocumented black frame insertion (original purpose is to 3D crosstalk, but black frames also increases motion resolution), even though you're using the projector in 2D mode only.
This is only a small list (there are dozens of other models that manage to do 120Hz, not listed in this list)
Granted, many manufacturers do not officially advertise 120Hz, but hundreds of people on the Internet are posting success reports as evidenced by the above small sampling, and definitively confirmed by subjective & objective tests, frame skipping tests, and high-speed camera tests.

Again, moving forward.

(EDIT: Created a new, separate thread, as this isn't plasma-specific.)

Thanks,
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post #16 of 24 Old 09-24-2013, 03:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Rejhon View Post

a recent scientific blind test showed an overwhelming preference for 120Hz (86% of gamers).

Source please?
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post #17 of 24 Old 09-24-2013, 07:13 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Airion View Post

Source please?

I don't know from experience, but what he is talking about is science proof and you can see it. For example-when I was checking out monitors at bestbuy,there was a sales guy asking me if i needed assistance. I said i was looking at the 1080p vs 1400p. He told me that once you go past a high resolution(1080p) you can't see the differince(everyone knows that if your monitor/TV is a certain distance away). I laughed at him and walked away. Until there is absolute no difference from what you see in reality,then there is no resolution high enough unless you are looking through something that trains the eye-kind of like 3D. When i saw that 4k TV it put my g25 into a shithouse TV.
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post #18 of 24 Old 09-24-2013, 08:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Airion View Post

Source please?
Here you go:
Blind Test Suggest Gamers Overwhelming Prefer 120Hz Refresh Rates, and here's the TechReport article on this too. Most of the 120Hz benefits manifests itself as reduced motion blur.

Another way to reduce motion blur is to use flicker (CRT, plasma, or high-efficiency strobe backlight on LCD) since the large black periods between flickers reduces motion blur without needing a higher refresh rate. (Most motion blur on modern displays is caused by the sample-and-hold effect, rather than pixel transition speed. See TestUFO Animation: Sample-And-Hold Motion Blur as well as TestUFO Animation: Motion Blur Reduction Via Flicker).

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BlurBusters Blog -- Eliminating Motion Blur by 90%+ on LCD for games and computers

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post #19 of 24 Old 09-24-2013, 08:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Rejhon View Post

Here you go:
Blind Test Suggest Gamers Overwhelming Prefer 120Hz Refresh Rates

Thanks for this! As you worded it above, I thought you meant 86% preferred 120fps 2D over 60fps 3D, but of course this is 120fps 2D vs 60fps 2D.

I would have thought many people would not be able to notice a difference above 60fps, but clearly that's not the case!
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post #20 of 24 Old 09-24-2013, 10:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Scott Simonian View Post

Simple. You cannot go ANYWHERE to get an hdtv that will accept a 120hz input.

That's it.

Oh and I don't care about being "100% correct and you must all believe me". I'm not that much of an a**hole. Gimme a break. I was being a smart ass. Yeesh.

My bad man. When you bolded "important" I thought you were being serious. Sometimes I have a hard time telling the difference between ***hole and smartass.

Also I am still not clear with the above statement : "you cannot go ANYWHERE to get an hdtv that will accept a 120hz input". Are you still being a smart ass? You are really helpful on this forum and I am trying to make sense of your statements as opposed to Mark Rejhon's. There is a major contradiction there.
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post #21 of 24 Old 09-24-2013, 11:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Hawkwing View Post

My bad man. When you bolded "important" I thought you were being serious. Sometimes I have a hard time telling the difference between ***hole and smartass.

Also I am still not clear with the above statement : "you cannot go ANYWHERE to get an hdtv that will accept a 120hz input". Are you still being a smart ass? You are really helpful on this forum and I am trying to make sense of your statements as opposed to Mark Rejhon's. There is a major contradiction there.

Hey, it's cool.

Well I'm going to say what I'm going to say knowing it will bring upon some back and forth.... but what I am saying is fairly darn accurate.

So what I mean is if you go to a store, online, wherever you will not be able to just buy a tv and get a 120hz input. Now, you can buy yourself a 3Dtv of sorts and do what Mark is saying just up above. This is all technically accurate but there IS NO TURNKEY solution for 120hz input from a consumer level hdtv, anywhere. That being said, like Mark has proven, the capability IS there. You just have to unlock it.

So as I said, there is NO tv you can just buy and BAMO have 120hz computer monitor. You gotta like.... do stuff. biggrin.gif

Marketing for such hdtv's may make some to believe that they have the capability to input and display 120hz, 240hz etc but that it just not the case. At least not with out SOME hacking.

It's a really lame and arbitrary limitation that drives me nuts.

My Dual 18" LLT subs 120dB down to 10hz

 

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post #22 of 24 Old 09-24-2013, 11:49 PM
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Semantics. 'Nuff said.

Thanks,
Mark Rejhon

www.BlurBusters.com

BlurBusters Blog -- Eliminating Motion Blur by 90%+ on LCD for games and computers

Rooting for upcoming low-persistence rolling-scan OLEDs too!

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post #23 of 24 Old 09-25-2013, 10:44 AM
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Very helpful.

My Dual 18" LLT subs 120dB down to 10hz

 

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post #24 of 24 Old 01-13-2014, 01:13 PM
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Got to be 4K. Dell's new 30" 4K monitor looks interesting. Either that or hook it up to a 4K TV
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