New List of HDTV's supporting True 120Hz from PC! (no interpolation) - AVS Forum
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Old 09-24-2013, 01:41 PM - Thread Starter
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For people who want to do HTPC Gaming at true 120fps at 120Hz, no interpolation.
-- Use a home theater display as a true 120Hz computer monitor.
-- HTPC only. Graphics card manufactured in the last 2 years.
-- Won't work with consoles
-- Won't work with settop boxes

(NOTE: This is more widely known in some forums such as HardForum and OCN, but I'm cross-posting this here, too, to raise awareness in this audience.)

Background information:
The 3D fad trojan-horsed undocumented ability to do 120Hz 2D native input into many displays. Frame sequential 3D @ 60Hz is electronically identical to 120Hz 2D mode, even though that is undocumented. Not side-by-side 3D, not checkerboard 3D, but frame-sequential 3D which is just simply the refresh rate being doubled to 120Hz in order to pass both left/right eye one after the other. (Every 1/120th second, left eye image, right eye image, left eye image, right eye image, and so on, in sync with shutter glasses). All refreshes evenly spaced apart 1/120sec apart. The Timings & Resolution are the same; the same numbers in ToastyX/PowerStrip/Linux modeline/etc. Instead of 3D, you're doing 2D, and you simply put down the glasses. Many success reports of much smoother gameplay. It is not often part of the EDID, but it often works when the EDID is ignored and 120Hz is sent anyway.

Step by Step:
  1. Display Requirement -- Success rate of 2D 120Hz is generally higher if your TV already supports 3D. 720p more likely over 1080p.
  2. Direct cable needed -- Directly from HDMI output of a recent graphics card (e.g. Geforce 600 series and Radeon 7000 series) directly into the HDMI input of HDTV. Best to avoid using an adaptor. Usually must bypass receiver (though some 3D receivers will pass 720p/120, and some 4K receivers will pass 1080p/120). It is noteworthy HDMI 4K 30Hz is the same dotclock as HDMI 1080p 120Hz, even though HDMI does not list 120Hz as an official rate.
  3. Instructions -- HDTV Refresh Rate HOWTO: 120Hz from PC to TV -- VERY Important Added Note: Must force Windows ignore EDID to make 120Hz appear in Control Panel. A new utility, ToastyX Custom Resolution Utility, makes it easy to force 120Hz to show up in Control Panel, if your graphics card is recent. No drivers or INF files needed.
  4. Verify Success. Do frame skipping tests: Either www.testufo.com/frameskipping (use Google Chrome for VSYNC 120Hz ability) or shurcooL's Refresh Rate Multitool. You can also use a 120fps camera to confirm (e.g. GoPro, iPhone 5S/5C, Casio EX-FC200S, EX-ZR200, certain Galaxy phones, etc) that all 120 refreshes are genuine and unique.

List of Plasmas, DLP, LCD that does 120fps @ 120Hz without frameskipping
Quote:
Successful:
Plasmas 120hz@720p,91hz@1440x1080,71hz@1920x1080, Full RGB, frame sequential 3D, 8bit color per channel
Panasonic 42PF50U
Panasonic 50PF50U
Panasonic 60PF50U
Panasonic 65PF50U

Plasmas 120hz@1080p, Full RGB, frame sequential 3D, 10bit per channel, scaler optional
Panasonic 42BT300U
Panasonic 50BT300U
Panasonic 65VX300U


Resolution: 1280x720 at 120Hz
Source: One of the success reports http://hardforum.com/showpost.php?p=1040143031&postcount=22
Plasmas models in same line: http://hardforum.com/showthread.php?p=1040149236&postcount=35
Quote:
Successful: Vizio e3d420vx
Resolution: 1920×1080 at 120 Hz
Source: http://120hz.net/showthread.php?852-Managed-to-force-120Hz-on-a-Vizio-e3d420vx
Quote:
Quote:
Confirmed: Seiki 4K HDTV
Resolution: 1920×1080 at 120 Hz
The brand new SEIKI 50″ HDTV with 4K resolution supports 1080p @ 120Hz natively (Multitool confirmed).
seiki4k_720p@133Hz-300x224.jpg
Quote:
Originally Posted by deadman5k 
Successful: Vizio M420SL not a 3d TV
Resolution: 1920×1080 at 120 Hz

Using a Asus 3D tv driver I was able to force a 120hz output with windows 7 and my Vizio M420SL system info screen displays 120hz vertical frequency as well as my Catalyst control center. This TV is not a 3D but does have a native LCD refresh rate of 120hz.

Thank you blurbusters for your very helpful information. It took all day to find the right question to ask the great google search engine but when I finally asked “force 120hz pc” I found this page and now I am in 120hz, 42 inch, goodness. Next trick is getting passive 3d working. Thanks again.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sadbuttrue 
Successful: Panasonic 50ST30 plasma
Resolution: 1280×720 @ 120hz.
Source: HardForum post (by sadbuttrue)

The OSD reports 60hz and 3D mode detected. Colours are slightly different but there is no 3D being applied. I have verified that it does show 120 unique frames. So, when you try outputting 120hz to your TV don’t assume the OSD is giving an accurate report. It may say 60hz yet actually be showing 120hz.
Quote:
Originally Posted by maarten12100 
Successful: Skyworth 39E780U UHD tv (china market model)
Resolution: 1080p @ 140Hz without frame skipping
Source: Overclock.net review by maarten12100

The overclock results:
UHD 3840×2160 was 30Hz max now 38Hz (up to 40Hz by reducing the extra pixels/blanking in the stream but with minor artifacting)
QFHD 2560×1440 was not there now 82Hz
HD 1920×1080 was 60Hz max now 140Hz (I checked with RRMT Refresh Rate Multi Tool and it actually did it without dropping)
QHD 1280×720 was 60Hz max now 254Hz (checked again with RRMT but it was too fast for my eyes then I took pictures and video)
(NOTE: Cost only $600 in China! Not available outside of China yet at this time.)
Quote:
Originally Posted by bobbitybob 
Successful:
- Sony KDL-50R550A 50″
- Sony KDL-60R550A 60″
- Sony KDL-70R550A 70″
Resolution: 720p @ 120Hz
Source: AVSFORUM post by bobbitybob
Quote:
Successful: Optoma GT270 DLP projector
Resolution: 1280x720 at 120 Hz
Source: http://hardforum.com/showthread.php?t=1780668
Note: Extra bonus: Enabling 3D mode also activates undocumented black frame insertion (original purpose is to 3D crosstalk, but black frames also increases motion resolution), even though you're using the projector in 2D mode only.
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Old 10-02-2013, 06:00 PM
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Mark, I see this as a sticky in the Flat Panel General and OLED Technology subforum.  It's a little bit lost out here.

 

It might be primarily a gaming thing, but it's still a fundamental "leap" forward in TV technology that will draw an enormous crowd in the general forum.


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Old 10-02-2013, 11:43 PM
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what PC games are people playing at 120 fps ?
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Old 10-02-2013, 11:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anthony1 View Post

what PC games are people playing at 120 fps ?

 

Any number of the first-person-shooters would greatly bennefit from that.  Most games have no upper limit other than the natural bottleneck of the hardware (cpu & graphics card & HDMI & display).


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Old 10-03-2013, 05:00 AM
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Ha! And all those peeps who laughed when we bought active 3D panels! lol
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Old 10-03-2013, 09:23 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anthony1 View Post

what PC games are people playing at 120 fps ?
FPS games, racing games, and games that outputs fast panning motion.

GPU requirements varies quite a bit. Many source engine games easily do 120fps@120Hz on a lowly 600-series Geforce, such as a Geforce 660 (costs less than $250), while newer games such as Crysis 3 requires a Titan (costs ~$1000) to run at 120fps@120Hz. Even a SLI is recommendable, the gaming equivalent of videophiles, have spent >$2000 on just their graphics cards alone, in order to coinsistently maintain 1080p @ 120fps @ 120Hz at maximum detail levels in recent video games. But if you don't mind older games, you can get by with just a $200 graphics card to maintain 120fps (e.g. Counter Strike, Team Fortress 2, Quake Live Online, Portal 2, etc).

There's also another alternative if you want 60Hz but with less motion blur: Sony's interpolation-free Motionflow Impulse strobe backlight. It is a Game Mode setting, and low-latency. Adds less than one extra frame of input lag. It reduces motion blur in Game Mode by about 75%, making it "look" equivalent to 240Hz, but without interpolation.
Related AVSFORUM Thread: New CRT-Quality LCD's. Zero Motion Blur
Then you can get by with the GPU horsepower needed for 60fps @ 60Hz, and works with consoles (ideal for next-gen 60fps console games).

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Old 10-03-2013, 12:24 PM
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The 800 lb gorilla in the room is bandwidth, and with HDMI 2.0 around the bend, a lot more options will be available soon. It's a much safer alternative, and an upgrade I've been waiting for some time. A linky for those who haven't been following it.

http://reviews.cnet.com/8301-33199_7-57603018-221/hdmi-2.0-what-you-need-to-know/
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Old 10-03-2013, 04:36 PM
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I tried and failed to get my ST30 to display 120hz, and it gave me nothing but headaches trying to get it back to normal.  Might have been cause I'm using multi-monitor or 3D, dunno...but it really messed things up, I couldnt even get back to 1080p@60hz at one point.


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Old 10-03-2013, 04:45 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bd2003 View Post

I tried and failed to get my ST30 to display 120hz, and it gave me nothing but headaches trying to get it back to normal.  Might have been cause I'm using multi-monitor or 3D, dunno...but it really messed things up, I couldnt even get back to 1080p@60hz at one point.
Would you be interested in telling more details of what you tried to do? Which graphics card? I assume you tested only 1280x720? And if you have 1080p@60Hz back, how did you get it back? I'd like to make sure that future users have an easier time, if they encounter your situation.

Thanks,
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Old 10-03-2013, 04:55 PM
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I tried the CRU, followed the instructions exactly.  120hz just never showed up, and I lost 1080p/60hz/32bit, had to reinstall drivers completely to get it back. Using an nvidia gtx 760, with 3d vision enabled, connected to both an st30 and a asus vg248. 3D also stopped working after that IIRC. I didn't try 720p, because I'd never use that mode anyway, and what happened at 1080p scared me off from messing with it further.

 

Is there any reason it can't be done simply with the nvidia control panel's custom resolutions?


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Old 10-03-2013, 07:37 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bd2003 View Post

I didn't try 720p
This is the primary problem. The ST30 only supports 120Hz only during 720p.
Also, an easier fix: The "reset-all.exe" included with ToastyX CRU, allows you to delete all custom resolutions and recover your original modes.
(Will add that to the instructions now)
Quote:
Is there any reason it can't be done simply with the nvidia control panel's custom resolutions?
Sometimes it can be, but sometimes the EDID overrides prevents you from being able to do so.

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Old 10-03-2013, 07:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Rejhon View Post

This is the primary problem. The ST30 only supports 120Hz only during 720p.
Also, an easier fix: The "reset-all.exe" included with ToastyX CRU, allows you to delete all custom resolutions and recover your original modes.
(Will add that to the instructions now)
Sometimes it can be, but sometimes the EDID overrides prevents you from being able to do so.

I tried the reset all thing, it didn't work.

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Old 10-03-2013, 08:46 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bd2003 View Post

I tried the reset all thing, it didn't work.
Hmm. And you also did a reboot in between?
I'm just trying to figure out your failure condition, so I can warn others against it.

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Old 10-03-2013, 08:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Rejhon View Post


Hmm. And you also did a reboot in between?
I'm just trying to figure out your failure condition, so I can warn others against it.

 

Yeah, definitely. If you're saying that the ST30 cant handle 1080p/120....that probably explains it entirely.


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Old 10-04-2013, 12:29 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bd2003 View Post

Yeah, definitely. If you're saying that the ST30 cant handle 1080p/120....that probably explains it entirely.
It explains part of it, but it doesn't explain the disappearance of 60Hz. That's where I'd like to understand the matter better, so I can add an extra note to the page in this regards.

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Old 10-09-2013, 07:23 PM
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I was curious so decided to try my Sharp 70 inch LC-70C745OU. Made a custom resolution with nvidia control panel for 1920x1080 progressive @ 120hz. Upper corner of tv is showing at at 121 hz, but it passes all the UFO tests at 120fps in chrome. Supposedly this is a 240hz TV but increasing further didnt change. It is sad to think I've been using this set as one of my monitors for quite a while now and had not tried this until now. HDMI cable from my Nvidia 670 card.

EDIT-- bah, I was looking at the test incorrectly, seems it is frame skipping. So it isnt truly taking the 120hz input
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Old 10-10-2013, 01:34 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kralthan View Post

EDIT-- bah, I was looking at the test incorrectly, seems it is frame skipping. So it isnt truly taking the 120hz input
Try out 720p@120Hz. That one is usually far more reliable at not frameskipping.

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Old 12-28-2013, 06:08 PM
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I tried 120Hz on my TH-P42UT30A panasonic plasma many times and could not get it to work until I tried using a official modeline I found on another post. Once I tried those settings with CRU the TV recognised it as 720 "3D" mode but the colours were more dull than usual, but it was still playable! =)

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Old 12-28-2013, 06:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NiGMa View Post

I tried 120Hz on my TH-P42UT30A panasonic plasma many times and could not get it to work until I tried using a official modeline I found on another post. Once I tried those settings with CRU the TV recognised it as 720 "3D" mode but the colours were more dull than usual, but it was still playable! =)

 

Did you test it for frame-dropping (AKA frame skipping, frame discarding)?


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Old 12-28-2013, 07:06 PM
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Not precisly, I think it is 120Hz since I could tell a difference. What is the easiest way to test?
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Old 12-29-2013, 09:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NiGMa View Post

Not precisly, I think it is 120Hz since I could tell a difference. What is the easiest way to test?

 

Mark Rejhon has detailed a few ways, and if you have a good enough system & browser, you can even run a custom test of his.

 

No, you can't trust your own eyes.  Not for something like this.  I've seen people be fooled over and over by such things: when you're looking for something you tend to notice things differently.  If you were comparing two 120Hz monitors side by side you can trust your eyes.  But changing FR within one monitor and seeing a change isn't a great test....you might see a difference, but it might not be delivering 120Hz to your eyes.


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Old 01-18-2014, 09:16 PM
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Mark, I have a question for ya. You know when you make a custom rez in AMD drivers, and you begin with either 1080p or 720p as your base res, then you make a sub-res that's lower. Does that in fact merely just put out a 720p or 1080p (or 1080i) signal, using the exact same bandwidth and number of pixels, but with some of them blacked out? Like if I make a 2.35 : 1 res like 810 x 1920, is it using the same exact carrier signal in every way as a native 1080p signal of the same refresh rate? Because if it isn't, then that opens up the possibility, in theory, of getting 72hz down the pipe at 900p, or some other Hz at some 2.35 : 1 aspect ratio. I suspect it's still just black pixels in those other regions, unlike old VGA signals, but now after trying to OC my BenQ w1070 to accept 120hz down to 72hz at 1080p, I realize it just can't handle it. 72hz showed some weird image for a split second before giving out, but I'd love to find some other res where I could get better refresh rate, if only for 3D games which I play occasionally and you really need a decent refresh rate, though dropping down to 720p just to get 60hz per eye, is a little extreme. Maybe something intermediary would be better.
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Old 01-20-2014, 05:16 PM
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With the new 4k 10 bit panels at 120 hz is Nivida and ATI going to release 10 bit drivers?
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Old 01-22-2014, 10:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 6athome View Post

With the new 4k 10 bit panels at 120 hz is Nivida and ATI going to release 10 bit drivers?

Individual programs can do full-screen 10-bit color using DirectX or OpenGL rendering as the GPUs can do it easily, but the Windows interface has no support for it and must be retooled to allow it across the board. Apple, for all their smug talk, hasn't bothered to implement it at all either despite overwhelming demand for it from photographers. Linux just requires a setting or two to be enabled, depending on your software configuration and whatnot but 10-bit color has been there for a while now.
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Old 02-15-2014, 07:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LexInVA View Post

Individual programs can do full-screen 10-bit color using DirectX or OpenGL rendering as the GPUs can do it easily, but the Windows interface has no support for it and must be retooled to allow it across the board. Apple, for all their smug talk, hasn't bothered to implement it at all either despite overwhelming demand for it from photographers. Linux just requires a setting or two to be enabled, depending on your software configuration and whatnot but 10-bit color has been there for a while now.

I am confused with the enabling of 10 bit HTPC and windows. The article I read stated that NVidia did not enable drivers for 10 bit.
the new Vizio P series is using a Sharp 70 inch panel and they are 10 bit 4K.
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