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Old 06-10-2014, 10:56 AM - Thread Starter
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First off, I'd like to apologize for this post, because I know that this info could be found out from a few google searches, but sometimes you'll accidentally get led in the wrong direction if you read the wrong thing first, and I know you guys are experts on everything, that it's just so much easier to ask you guys.


I got a 3D plasma TV a number of years back, and I knew everything about how to run PC games in 3D, but all the info has seemed to completely vanish from my brain. Normally not a big deal, because the 3D thing turned out to mostly be a crappy gimmick, but I just ended up getting a brand new projector that happens to do 3D. I figure I might as well test out some PC games in 3D.

For example, I have Batman Arkham Asylum on PC that I think has a special 3D mode or something. Or, it's supposed to look really nice in 3D. I'm using a BenQ W1070 projector, and I have two pairs of the 144hz DLP Link glasses. I know I need to pay like some $40 fee, or $50 fee for some drivers to use on various games... right ? Basically, could somebody give me the skinny on what I should do if I want to play some PC games in 3D on my BengQ W1070. Isn't there some free 3D drivers out there called Tri Def or something ? Or maybe you have to pay for that as well. I guess I'd be willing to pay a bit, cause I have a bunch of older PC games I need to play through, and I could try running some of them in 3D and might be kinda cool.
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Old 06-10-2014, 11:05 AM
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Depends on the game and the GPU. Some games have built-in support.

With Nvidia GPUs, you just need the 3DTV Play package to enable support in the main driver package.

With AMD, you need Tridef.

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Old 06-10-2014, 12:33 PM
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What jhoff said, assuming you are using Windows Vista or newer, it's really very simple. I'd like to add that there are trial versions for both Tridef and 3DTV Play so you'll have a couple of weeks to find out which you prefer.
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Old 06-10-2014, 08:44 PM - Thread Starter
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My primary gaming PC is Windows 7 and it's a Nvidia 560 Ti from mid 2010.

I'm pretty sure I did the 3DTV trial back when I first got my 3D Plasma.

I guess I just need to drop $40 on it and deal with it.
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Old 06-10-2014, 08:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anthony1 View Post

My primary gaming PC is Windows 7 and it's a Nvidia 560 Ti from mid 2010.

I'm pretty sure I did the 3DTV trial back when I first got my 3D Plasma.

I guess I just need to drop $40 on it and deal with it.

 

Just warning you....3D support is basically dead for games since 2011-2012 or so. Don't bother unless you have a large backlog to work through.

 

Even then, the vast majority of games require hacks (google helix mod). There have been some attempts at fixing 3D for newer games, but it's getting so difficult for them to do in DX11 that it's probably going to dry up soon.


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Old 06-11-2014, 12:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anthony1 View Post

My primary gaming PC is Windows 7 and it's a Nvidia 560 Ti from mid 2010.

I'm pretty sure I did the 3DTV trial back when I first got my 3D Plasma.

I guess I just need to drop $40 on it and deal with it.



Some of the best 3D gaming out there has to be Trine 2, that game requires a decent rig to run full on let alone 3D (it pushes my gtx780oc in 3D... all settings max).

See if you can run the games you want to play in 3D at 720p 120 fps (using fraps with no v-sync), most modern games are not likely to hit 120 fps via a 560ti unless the settings are turned fairly low.

Even the stronger 750ti cannot do 3D all that well, I tried it. wink.gif

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Old 06-12-2014, 03:06 PM - Thread Starter
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I could play Trine 2 on the PS4. It's only the only 3D game currently on the PS4 (that I know of)
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Old 06-12-2014, 03:18 PM
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Originally Posted by DaGamePimp View Post
Quote:Originally Posted by Anthony1 

My primary gaming PC is Windows 7 and it's a Nvidia 560 Ti from mid 2010.

I'm pretty sure I did the 3DTV trial back when I first got my 3D Plasma.

I guess I just need to drop $40 on it and deal with it.




Some of the best 3D gaming out there has to be Trine 2, that game requires a decent rig to run full on let alone 3D (it pushes my gtx780oc in 3D... all settings max).

See if you can run the games you want to play in 3D at 720p 120 fps (using fraps with no v-sync), most modern games are not likely to hit 120 fps via a 560ti unless the settings are turned fairly low.

Even the stronger 750ti cannot do 3D all that well, I tried it.

Jason
Max settings on trine 2 are a little insane though....I think the highest setting uses 4xSSAA.
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Old 06-12-2014, 06:05 PM
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I also play games in 3D on my W1070 and 560 Ti. Generally performance is fine in 720p 3D. Be sure to set your games to run in 720p 60hz for 3DTV Play to work. I select 720p 3D in the Nvidia control panel before I load up a game. By the way, any 120hz compatible DLP-link glasses will work for 720p PC games on the W1070.

Note that a few games have problems running in 720p 60hz due to a bug with the W1070. It ends up running in 1280x800 120hz, which isn't 3DTV Play compatible. I know Arkham City is a problem, not sure about Arkham Asylum. There's a solution though, you just need to do an EDID override. Read this thread for how to do it, if you require it: https://forums.geforce.com/default/topic/573000/3d-vision/benq-w-1080st-3dtv-play-help/2/

Remember to unlock convergence in the Nvidia control panel. You'll want to turn that up to get games looking their best in 3D.

While it's true that DX11 games tend to be problems in 3D, there are still plenty of new games that work well in 3D. Recently I've been playing Dark Souls 2 in 3D, for example. Helixmod has tons of fixes for games that need them, and some DX11 fixes have been done recently (ACIII and IV). About 75% of my gaming has been in 3D the past year, and I'm not too worried about the future.
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Old 06-26-2014, 11:06 PM
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Since just about every game in DX9 has been fixed (afaik), 3D gaming has been alive and well, at least on the PC. Just load it up with 3DTV Play enabled and have your resolution set at 1280x720 and it should do the rest. Make sure to enable the hidden convergence hotkeys and others in the options menu, which are hidden for some super strange reason (all things considered).

I like the holodeck, totally realistic look to enhance the game, others like the miniaturization because of the greater 3D perception between more objects (i assume). To set for realistic, i'd measure your IPD first with a ruler and a mirror. Then set the depth, F3 and F4 such that objects in the distance, further than say 300 virtual ft are apart by your IPD measurement, then adjust convergence, F5 and F6, so that things in front of you look correctly sized and distanced. Human 3D perception is VERY complicated and sensitive to changes some variation in the above may fit you better. Antialiasing helps a lot. Post Process AA hurts a lot, at least on my LCD, which is scaled. Maybe try the EYE: Divine Cybermancy demo on steam, that doesn't require much horsepower. Strange, but sometimes super interesting game.

Also, you might try some screenshots at least to see what your in for 3D wise. This user uses a projector and might look perfect on your screen, although probably not and it will require a little separating or bringing together. http://photos.3dvisionlive.com/eqzitara/page/5/

or mine, which will require you to use the projector's setting to shrink the amount of separation a little, but are made with the realistic 3D.
http://photos.3dvisionlive.com/libertine


Trine 2 on PC had custom depth convergence sliders right in the menu, not sure if the PS4 version does or not, but if not i hear console users can at least get more depth by i believe telling the game you have a smaller screen or something. Anyway, you should be able to push those little characters and/or the whole scene right in front of you, like reach out and touch everything front.

Last edited by tory40; 06-27-2014 at 01:07 AM.
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Old 07-09-2014, 01:12 PM
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I also have a w1070 (just showed up yesterday) and would like to game with it, 3D

If I buy a geForce 750 am I good?

I know the newer games don't really work, but I'm very happy with older games like Skyrim, Mass Effect(s), Mirror's Edge, Portal/Team Fortress 2, etc.

It's hard to love Martin Logans and 2.35:1 CIH at the same time...
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Old 07-09-2014, 01:52 PM
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I also have a w1070 (just showed up yesterday) and would like to game with it, 3D

If I buy a geForce 750 am I good?

I know the newer games don't really work, but I'm very happy with older games like Skyrim, Mass Effect(s), Mirror's Edge, Portal/Team Fortress 2, etc.

As long as you're not dead set on a solid 60fps and you've got a good enough CPU, a 750 should be adequate for 3d in older games.

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Old 07-09-2014, 09:50 PM
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Originally Posted by akm3 View Post
I also have a w1070 (just showed up yesterday) and would like to game with it, 3D

If I buy a geForce 750 am I good?

I know the newer games don't really work, but I'm very happy with older games like Skyrim, Mass Effect(s), Mirror's Edge, Portal/Team Fortress 2, etc.


Honestly a standard 750 is not going to deliver a solid 3D gaming experience at 720p 120 (60 per).


Now if you are only asking if you can do 3D simply for the '3D' experience then technically yes it should do 3D with those games on their lower settings, playability will vary by game.


For the record I also have a w1070, a 750ti sc and a GTX 780oc.


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Old 07-09-2014, 09:58 PM
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So should I go for the (very expensive) 780 or will a 760 have me covered? Currently gaming on a mobile 5750 in an iMac very happily.

It's hard to love Martin Logans and 2.35:1 CIH at the same time...
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Old 07-09-2014, 11:53 PM
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The 760 is very capable and would obviously offer a better 3D gaming experience (vs 750).


If you want to be able to play in 3D at higher settings with most games a 770 would be the way to go, it's the current 'sweet spot' gpu.


A 780 or two for the most demanding games @ max settings + 3D (like Crysis 3, Trine 2, Metro).


For me I want the game looking its best while in 3D because I am not into 3D as much as I am into graphic quality. I know others that will play in 3D with the game on low settings in order to maintain a smooth 3D experience.


It depends on how high you want your in game graphic settings, do you want to see the game looking its best while in 3D or are you more interested in simply experiencing 3D gaming...?


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Old 07-25-2014, 06:58 PM
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http://helixmod.blogspot.com/2014/07...3d-vision.html

Well, that pretty much ends 3D support on PC. It was a good run.

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Old 07-25-2014, 07:13 PM
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Originally Posted by bd2003 View Post
http://helixmod.blogspot.com/2014/07...3d-vision.html

Well, that pretty much ends 3D support on PC. It was a good run.
Wow, that is truly sad. Helix and the rest made 3D gaming bearable using 3D Vision and help support /fix games after NVIDIA pretty much stopped their support. I'm glad they helped the community for as long as they did.
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Old 07-25-2014, 09:06 PM
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Wow, that is truly sad. Helix and the rest made 3D gaming bearable using 3D Vision and help support /fix games after NVIDIA pretty much stopped their support. I'm glad they helped the community for as long as they did.
Yep. But you might as well stick a fork in it now, those guys were the only thing keeping real 3D gaming alive on any platform. Now it's officially dead, and it's probably never coming back outside of VR.

It's too bad a lot of people will never know how awesome it was, but the industry did everything in their power to ensure it wasn't a success.

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Old 07-25-2014, 10:18 PM
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Wow, that truly sucks. I was kind of hoping HDMI 2.0 would resolve a lot of 3D issues, but I should have known better.
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Old 07-27-2014, 07:06 PM
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It's too early to declare the end of 3D Vision. Those two guys are moving on, but the tools to fix games still exist. People come and people go (Helix himself has been inactive for a long time). It's just a question of whether or not other people will/can come in to fill the void.
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Old 07-28-2014, 08:02 AM
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It's too early to declare the end of 3D Vision. Those two guys are moving on, but the tools to fix games still exist. People come and people go (Helix himself has been inactive for a long time). It's just a question of whether or not other people will/can come in to fill the void.

From the sounds of it, he only gave up because nvidia did. If they're not going to at least provide the community the support they need to fix this stuff themselves, it's a lost cause.

I was just listening to a podcast where a bunch of nvidia reps basically flat out admitted 3d vision was a failure, and they're looking to at least salvage some of the tech adapt it to VR/oculus. Maybe some of that will filter back down to traditional displays, but it'll be years before 3D is back in full swing.

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Old 07-28-2014, 05:28 PM
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From the sounds of it, he only gave up because nvidia did. If they're not going to at least provide the community the support they need to fix this stuff themselves, it's a lost cause.
He said elsewhere that it's not the main reason he's quitting, but my guess is that they took the opportunity of announcing retirement to highlight Nvidia's failures and put what pressure they can on the company to do more. Nvidia doesn't try to get in the way of the community, but sometimes with driver updates bugs happen and specific games don't work with Helixmod anymore. Yes, I think Nvidia should fix this, but on the other hand Helixmod is not their software. They might not know how to fix the problem, and again because it's not their software they might not be able to give it much of a priority vs other bugs. It's only a handful of games anyway, and ultimately the user can choose to just install an older driver to play them in 3D.

While it's clear that 3D Vision isn't Nvidia's priority, they this year have introduced Compatibility Mode for specific DX11 games. It's reprojection 3D. (For those that don't know, it builds a 3D image off of a single 2D image. This provides a lesser 3D effect with certain artifacts such as halos around characters, but without any broken effects.) Naturally it's received mixed reviews: some can't stand it, some find it a great option vs 2D. It at least shows that while 3D Vision is troubled, it has not been abandoned.

This discussion also ignores the other option for 3D, Tridef. If you don't need SLI support or have an ATI card, and have a display that can do SBS, it's great and it is actively supported. Often the 3D Vision fixes are just catching up to what Tridef has done long ago. I agree though that 3D on the PC is largely just biding time until VR hits.
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Old 07-28-2014, 05:41 PM - Thread Starter
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I might as well just wait for HDMI 2.0 cards. When do Nvidia cards start to arrive with hdmi 2.0 ? I normally try to get the best card I can get for under $300, but I know sometimes you have to bump that up another hundred. At that point though, I'd be more interested in waiting and hoping to play PS4 XB1 level games in legit 4K. Yeah, might need to wait till Spring 2016, which is a long wait, but I can do it. I'll just game on console till then, and play older games that run great on my 560 Ti via my current PC.

If Fallout 4 looks super amazing on a super high end PC, before Spring 2016, I might cave, but other than that I think I can hold out.
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Old 07-28-2014, 08:42 PM
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He said elsewhere that it's not the main reason he's quitting, but my guess is that they took the opportunity of announcing retirement to highlight Nvidia's failures and put what pressure they can on the company to do more. Nvidia doesn't try to get in the way of the community, but sometimes with driver updates bugs happen and specific games don't work with Helixmod anymore. Yes, I think Nvidia should fix this, but on the other hand Helixmod is not their software. They might not know how to fix the problem, and again because it's not their software they might not be able to give it much of a priority vs other bugs. It's only a handful of games anyway, and ultimately the user can choose to just install an older driver to play them in 3D.

While it's clear that 3D Vision isn't Nvidia's priority, they this year have introduced Compatibility Mode for specific DX11 games. It's reprojection 3D. (For those that don't know, it builds a 3D image off of a single 2D image. This provides a lesser 3D effect with certain artifacts such as halos around characters, but without any broken effects.) Naturally it's received mixed reviews: some can't stand it, some find it a great option vs 2D. It at least shows that while 3D Vision is troubled, it has not been abandoned.

This discussion also ignores the other option for 3D, Tridef. If you don't need SLI support or have an ATI card, and have a display that can do SBS, it's great and it is actively supported. Often the 3D Vision fixes are just catching up to what Tridef has done long ago. I agree though that 3D on the PC is largely just biding time until VR hits.
Helixmod is technically still using 3D vision...all it did was allow people to rewrite troublesome shaders that didn't appear properly in 3D. It was something that the game dev should have done, or if not them, then nvidia themselves. They go out of their way to optimize the performance of shaders in their drivers, but they couldn't be bothered to fix the 3D. The fact that a single guy on the internet was able to fix literally hundreds of 3d vision games on his own while the multi-billion dollar company that created the tech didn't bother to support it speaks to nvidia's ongoing interest in it.

In my experience, reprojection, even nvidias new version is so terrible it's not worth it, and tridef isn't much better.

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Old 07-28-2014, 09:08 PM
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Helixmod is technically still using 3D vision...all it did was allow people to rewrite troublesome shaders that didn't appear properly in 3D.
Sure, but it requires the Helixmod wrapper/injector, which is not Nvidia's software.

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It was something that the game dev should have done, or if not them, then nvidia themselves. They go out of their way to optimize the performance of shaders in their drivers, but they couldn't be bothered to fix the 3D. The fact that a single guy on the internet was able to fix literally hundreds of 3d vision games on his own while the multi-billion dollar company that created the tech didn't bother to support it speaks to nvidia's ongoing interest in it.
I agree, it's something the devs should take care of. Ideally Nvidia could do it as well, and they've never given a clear answer why not, but reading between the lines from posts by Nvidia reps on their forums, it appears they can't for legal reasons. I think that makes sense, that shaders are not their property to modify. But for modders, it's fine.

Then the question comes to, how does Tridef do it? I don't think they're modifying shaders either, I think they just work on how the driver handles the shaders as is. Then the question comes to, why doesn't Nvidia do that? Perhaps there's a legal gray area where Tridef is willing to take a more liberal interpretation, while Nvidia wants to play it safe. Or perhaps they just don't want to hire the staff to do it. I "hope" that's the case, because then there's the possibility they could decide to do so, but I suspect it's not that simple.

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In my experience, reprojection, even nvidias new version is so terrible it's not worth it, and tridef isn't much better.
I'm not a fan of it either, but a lot of people speak positively of it, and good for them. My point is if Nvidia didn't care at all about 3D, they wouldn't have bothered to develop it at this late stage.
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Old 07-29-2014, 04:35 AM
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How do you play PC games in 3D ? used to know but forgot about it...

I can't imagine it's a legal issue. What dev is going to sue nvidia for fixing and/or adding features to their game? I think if anything they just didn't want to set the precedent that nvidia would fix 3D for them.

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Old 07-29-2014, 05:26 AM
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I can't imagine it's a legal issue. What dev is going to sue nvidia for fixing and/or adding features to their game?
What company is going to knowingly violate copyright law? Hope that developers won't challenge them on it isn't much assurance. There are many pages, but if you haven't, we should all read up:

Here's the thread that introduced Compatibility Mode. Pay attention to SteveK@NVIDIA's posts in the context of what others are saying: https://forums.geforce.com/default/t...omment=4119587

Here's the current thread about the developments we're discussing: https://forums.geforce.com/default/t...-times-ahead-/
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Old 07-29-2014, 05:47 AM
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One more important one to add: https://forums.geforce.com/default/t...back-thread/7/

Read the whole thread for context, then read SteveK's post at the bottom of page seven along with the post right above his, and it's a strong indication to me that they can't simply modifty shaders as Helixmod does. Another user strongly suggested in previous posts that it would be against copyright law, and I think that's what he's alluding to.
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Old 07-29-2014, 09:20 AM
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How do you play PC games in 3D ? used to know but forgot about it...

What motive could a dev possibly have to sue nvidia for copyright infringement for improving their game? It makes zero sense for anyone to even suggest that, and if that's their excuse, it sounds more to me like a convenient scapegoat than a real objection.

Quote:
SteveK@NVIDIA

No, sorry - what I meant was it's a reflection of the current trends in the 3D market, which is not nearly as "hot" as it was when 3D Vision debuted. It's an installed base/value/time and cost consideration. Look at the overall 3D market and the trends were talking about here more or less reflect those.
This pretty much sums it up - it's not worth their time. And I accept that. I don't like it, but I accept it. I just think people should be aware going forward that they're not getting the real deal.

It's not the first time we've seen tech backpedal....3D audio was a thing for a while. And what happened to that? A single company (creative) cornered the market, ceased to meaningfully develop it, and devs and gamers moved on and just accepted an inferior solution (5.1 and virtual surround downmixing) as good enough, if they even bothered at all.

It was fun while it lasted. Most people will never know how awesome it was.

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Old 07-29-2014, 05:21 PM
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About devs suing for copyright infringement, it just doesn't make sense to me that Nvidia would hand out "sue us for free if you ever feel like it" cards. As a simplistic example, imagine if ATI bought a developer whose shaders were modified by Nvidia. They could use it as an excuse to take a bite out of Nvidia. Not because they actually feel wronged about modified shaders, but because what's bad for Nvidia is good for ATI.

These sorts of things happen all the time. Take the current Halbig v. Burwell case in the US. It's not that the plaintiffs are really bothered that there's a slip in the law's wording. No one is hurt by it. Rather, they don't like Obamacare and they're taking advantage of it to do some damage.

Of course Nvidia is being realistic about the current 3D market, but they also say they're still committed to it. I don't expect much at all from them (3D Vision was already in a state of neglect when I jumped in), but I don't expect them to drop it completely (they always have the option to drop it from future driver releases). As I said before, there are other people out there who can step up to do fixes, it's just a question of if they will. People have been prematurely declaring 3D Vision dead for a long time.
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