Denon DVD3800BDCI Owner's Thread - Page 19 - AVS Forum
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post #541 of 6651 Old 03-16-2008, 01:40 PM
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Originally Posted by wmccain View Post

You are right, Bob, that is compelling evidence that it is decoding the "core" and not the full DTS-HD HR. But you need to be very careful, here. You need to be sure that the test track really has 7.1 channels. Movies with a 7.1-channel mix are actually quite rare users in other threads and other forums have been known to report that a title had 7.1 channels when, in fact, the player or their receiver was generating the two rear channels (a la EX/ES, PLIIx, Logic 7, etc.).

Also, the number of channels produced by the Denon 3800 could be affected by the speaker settings in the Denon 3800 itself or the speaker settings in the receiver (since the EDID exchange over HDMI with the receiver could tell the 3800 to limit itself to 5.1 channels).

Assuming that all this has been checked carefully, and the footnotes in the Denon 3800 manual are, in fact, accurate, it is still a very strange design decision on Denon's part. The only reason that I can think of for them to not decode DTS-HD HR and DD Plus in a player of this quality is that they "ran out of time". That is, they first implemented the firmware for DTS-HD MA (the only Blu-ray player to do so, to date) and for DD TrueHD, then had to "meet a release schedule" and thus left the support for the intermediate-quality audio formats in the state it was for the 2500 (where "core only" is understandable). If so, hopefully there will be a firmware update at some time in the future that will address this omission.

Bill

I agree that there are lots of pitfalls here which is why we need to get more owners confirming or refuting these results.

The particular track that JSTEINHAUER used for the DTS-HD HR track was confirmed as a "real" 7.1 track by SHAMUS using his Denon 2500. And JSTEINHAUER also confirmed that he had turned on the "Source Direct" setting which is supposed to disable all Speaker Configuration processing in the 3800. Finally JSTEINHAUER confirmed that he WAS able to get 7.1 from a DTS-HD MA track in his setup.

Still room for tester error of course, but not looking good.

The thing that I find most puzzling is that DenonJeff was adamant that the 3800 would properly decode DTS-HD HR and DD+ (i.e., that the entries in that table in the manual were not correct).

I'm sure this will all be sorted out as more owners start reporting.

I can imagine that they may also have left out DTS-HD HR and DD+ decoding either because there wasn't time to get the results certified, or that there was a mistake that caused them to fail certification (and so they pulled those 2 until they could fix that), or that they ran up against some resource limit in the player such as space to store the necessary programming for those 2.

But this is all speculation. The important thing at this point is to get other testers working to confirm or refute these first reports.
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post #542 of 6651 Old 03-16-2008, 01:49 PM
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Originally Posted by shamus View Post

The problem is, these fixes come at the expense of analog users if I recall correctly... Maybe Filmixer can chime in, as he has a better understanding of this issue.

My understanding is that the Panasonic BD30 fix for this is "complete": All outputs (including Analog) can now get the correct LFE result for all tracks.

The only gotcha that I know of is a potential for user setup error. If you are using HDMI for audio output then you MUST set the speakers to Large in the BD30. This is the intended and normal setting for HDMI audio output anyway (i.e., speaker management is handled in the AVR for HDMI output), but if the user screws up and sets Small here the LFE will be wrong for HDMI output, and the BD30's Setup menus will not prevent the user from making this mistake.

---------------------------------------

I don't know where Denon is in the process of getting a fix out for the 2500. But I do know that DenonJeff stated the audio signal path in the 3800 is quite different -- which is why he was so confident this bug would not be found in the 3800. And that could mean that a fix for the 2500 does not translate into a rapid fix for the 3800.
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post #543 of 6651 Old 03-16-2008, 02:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Bob Pariseau View Post

But if a known 7.1 DTS-HD HR track is decoded as 5.1 by the 3800, then you know it is not decoding DTS-HD HR properly. The natural assumption is that the manual is, in fact, correct and only the "core" DTS track is being heard. This is what the testers are reporting here.--Bob

I just recieved this unit on Friday using 7.1 analog outs into a Rotel 1098 Pre/Pro and tried "Stargate" last night and can confirm "NO" back channel information. Where "Shoot Um Up" with DTA-MA 7.1 the backs come alive!

A couple of side issues, The picture adjustments will NOT work when the unit is paused (very inconvienient for test discs/patterns). I also just noticed an "Audio Delay" setting ine the setup menu that is NOT addressed in the manual (Analog, PCM, Bitstream ???) I have not played with it yet.
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post #544 of 6651 Old 03-16-2008, 02:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Bob Pariseau View Post

... or that they ran up against some resource limit in the player such as space to store the necessary programming for those 2.

Gee, I sure hope that is not the case. I really want for this player to be complete it is clearly the best Blu-ray player anybody has shipped to date, by far.

The other strange omission from the 3800 that puzzles me is the lack of an Ethernet port. This means the player can never be upgraded to Profile 2.0 (and no firmware updates via network, although presumably the firmware can be updated by burning a CD or possibly even via the RS232 serial port or the SD card slot).

Of course, nobody has yet shipped a Profile 2.0 player, though Sony and Panasonic have announced them for later this year. But someday, Profile 2.0 will be "standard" so I guess we can expect a "Denon 3900", eventually. (The "master list" at http://www.idoblu.co.uk/page2%20Blu-ray%20Players.html shows the Marantz BD8002 as having Profile 2.0 support. But the BD8002 just "has to be" a re-badged Denon 3800, and Marantz's own press release for the BD8002 says that it is Profile 1.1.)

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post #545 of 6651 Old 03-16-2008, 02:35 PM
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I hope we hear or read something from Denon early this week. I still can't believe they could release a player in March of 08 that would make the same mistake of players released at the launch. And yes I am meaning the 1080p/24 direct signal... Before I make my ultimate decision on keeping the 3800 in my set up I want to know if they are going to "fix" it. Maybe by Tuesday they will let us know they at least acknowledge the 1080p/24 issue...

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post #546 of 6651 Old 03-16-2008, 02:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joerod View Post

Maybe by Tuesday they will let us know they at least acknowledge the 1080p/24 issue...

hard to believe Denon would get this detail wrong, seems like this would be a "hard-coated" universal requirement for BD development. Leads me to believe there's some other "adjacent" issue or reason for the DVD-3800BDCI situation.
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post #547 of 6651 Old 03-16-2008, 03:04 PM
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this audio is very confusing'watching 2001 a space odysssy bd
which audio should i be using lpcm multichannel thru analogs or dd 5.1 thru optical on a lexicon mc-8
thanks barry
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post #548 of 6651 Old 03-16-2008, 03:47 PM
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Barry,
When watching 2001 on br you should used the 5.1 input on the lexicon and pick 5.1 LPCM in the audio selection of the blu Ray.
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post #549 of 6651 Old 03-16-2008, 03:52 PM
 
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Originally Posted by joerod View Post

I hope we hear or read something from Denon early this week. I still can't believe they could release a player in March of 08 that would make the same mistake of players released at the launch. And yes I am meaning the 1080p/24 direct signal... Before I make my ultimate decision on keeping the 3800 in my set up I want to know if they are going to "fix" it. Maybe by Tuesday they will let us know they at least acknowledge the 1080p/24 issue...

Given Jeff's disappearance, I highly doubt you are going to have an answer anytime soon. You will probably have to return your unit. I'm so glad I decided to wait for the next generation with SACD support. Hopefully by then, Denon will have worked out the /24 problem and the HR and DD+ support.
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post #550 of 6651 Old 03-16-2008, 04:16 PM
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Originally Posted by townofturley View Post

I decided to wait for the next generation with SACD support

I would shy away from a "universal" player, especially from Denon, just more added complexity and more potential hang-ups, failures, etc.,...(just go have a look at the DVD-3930CI thread, wonderful player but full of failures out-of-the-box). I'm learning it's better to have multiple players (at least two), if you can, to divide to "duties". I'm using, both, an Oppo DV-980H and a Denon DVD-3930CI, I play multi-channel audio (SACD and DVD-A) on the Oppo (HDMI-PCM) and CD's/stereo SACD's on the Denon, while I use both players for SD DVD-Movies. I would use the DVD-3800BDCI for BluRay only (if Denon can get this latest issue fixed soon).
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post #551 of 6651 Old 03-16-2008, 04:18 PM
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I do find it rather odd Denon Jeff shows up then quickly disappears again. If he does not show up soon and address the issues I guess I will go back into hiatus mode again with Denon (like the past 3 or 4 years)... I still would think they would fix it soon. If not I guess I will go back to my BD30 or Pioneer 95 unit as my starter. It is to bad because the 3800 has so much potential...

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post #552 of 6651 Old 03-16-2008, 04:30 PM
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Originally Posted by joerod View Post

I do find it rather odd Denon Jeff shows up then quickly disappears again...

I truly believe his recent re-appearance was to get a "feel" of their (Denon's) current market stance from a good pool of users, partly, because of recent product quality issues, seriously.
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post #553 of 6651 Old 03-16-2008, 06:23 PM
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I have had 5 PMs from people asking me if they should get the unit (in the last 24 to 48 hours) and I tell them I can't honestly say YES at this time. I need to read or hear that they are going to remedy the situation and quickly. I realize the 1080p/24 direct signal did not hit until Friday and it has been a weekend since so hopefully they will get on it early this week. I have faith.

Of course that may change in the next 48 to 72 hours...

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post #554 of 6651 Old 03-16-2008, 06:39 PM
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How many folks here are running 1080P24? I thought this would be more than 1 man's realization (Joe)...

I am still eyeballing this unit. Did anyone ever figure out of DTS HD and DD+ are decoded to LPCM?

There are more than a handful of [op amps] that sound so good that most designers want to be using them as opposed to discreet transistors. Dave Reich, Theta 2009
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post #555 of 6651 Old 03-16-2008, 06:54 PM
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giomania
Quote:


Despite the additional A/D and D/A conversions, the Burr-Brown DAC's in the Lexicon are really transparent.

I know the use of Burr-Brown DAC's is pretty incredible, and the bass management of the Lexicon is also incredible, but I thought that despite the transparency of the DACS, the final output is no longer uncompressed HD audio going that route. I may be wrong, but I thought thats what I have read. I am also not that familiar with the Source Direct option, and how that works in this mix.
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post #556 of 6651 Old 03-16-2008, 07:18 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by thebland View Post

How many folks here are running 1080P24? I thought this would be more than 1 man's realization (Joe)...

I am still eyeballing this unit. Did anyone ever figure out of DTS HD and DD+ are decoded to LPCM?

I'm using 1080p/24 without issue now. No problems with Pioneer Elite plasma. Truthfully, I don't notice any effects attributed to the 24/23.97 situation.

Since I'm using analog outs, I don't have any information regarding HDMI transfer of legacy or advanced codecs.

Lee
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post #557 of 6651 Old 03-16-2008, 07:22 PM
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Thanks!

Are there layer change issues with this player for Blu Ray discs??

I'd like to see firmware updates for the

1. 1080P24 issue
2. DTS HR decoding and DD+ decoding..
3. Enable composite video output when 24P HDMI is in use

That said, are there any DTS HD or DD+ Blu Ray discs?

There are more than a handful of [op amps] that sound so good that most designers want to be using them as opposed to discreet transistors. Dave Reich, Theta 2009
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post #558 of 6651 Old 03-16-2008, 07:27 PM
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Originally Posted by thebland View Post

That said, are there any DTS HD or DD+ Blu Ray discs?

There are numerous BDs with a DTS-HD HR encode. Most of them are released by Lionsgate.

The only DD+ encoded BD that I know of is a Dolby demonstration disc. There are some mislabeled Warner BDs that say DD+ on the back cover, but they are actually normal DD encodes. These mistakes are likely a carryover from the HD DVD version of the respective releases. As I've mentioned in another thread, any player that has a DD+ logo on the front should decode the codec. Perhaps Roger Dressler can enter this thread and clarify the situation.
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post #559 of 6651 Old 03-16-2008, 10:29 PM
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I've run a few movies in 1080p/24f thru hdmi without any problems at all in my 2500FYI...

3808ci, 2500BT and pioneer Kuro 6010 plasma with outstanding results. no lag or sync issues at any time.
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post #560 of 6651 Old 03-17-2008, 04:47 AM
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^The 2500 doesn't have the 24hz issue. It plays back 1080p24 perfectly on my RS1. The 2500 has other issues (hopefully soon to be resolved).
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post #561 of 6651 Old 03-17-2008, 08:10 AM
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Originally Posted by MSmith83 View Post

There are numerous BDs with a DTS-HD HR encode. Most of them are released by Lionsgate.

The only DD+ encoded BD that I know of is a Dolby demonstration disc. There are some mislabeled Warner BDs that say DD+ on the back cover, but they are actually normal DD encodes. These mistakes are likely a carryover from the HD DVD version of the respective releases. As I've mentioned in another thread, any player that has a DD+ logo on the front should decode the codec. Perhaps Roger Dressler can enter this thread and clarify the situation.

We've had reports here that DD+ tracks were being rendered as the lower quality "associated" DD track for both Analog and HDMI PCM. I wonder if these are actually some of the mislabeled Warner BDs you mention.

Could the folks here who reported this for DD+ state again which disc they used to test that? And then perhaps we can confirm whether or not that track actually is BD+ via an HDMI Bitstream test to an appropriate receiver.
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post #562 of 6651 Old 03-17-2008, 08:17 AM
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Originally Posted by OzzieP View Post

giomania

I know the use of Burr-Brown DAC's is pretty incredible, and the bass management of the Lexicon is also incredible, but I thought that despite the transparency of the DACS, the final output is no longer uncompressed HD audio going that route. I may be wrong, but I thought thats what I have read. I am also not that familiar with the Source Direct option, and how that works in this mix.

With all Pre/Pros that have the option to perform digital processing on an analog signal (my D1 is the same), it converts it to a PCM format and carries out the processing on this data. This is "lossless" in that a good pre/pro in that it is sampled at a high enough rate to avoid any aliasing or loss of data.

Digital sampling and digital compression are two entirely different things.

Look at digital sampling it like cloning, the point being that no matter how good the sampling is (and still called lossless), if the cycle of analog-digital-analog is repeated often enough data will be lost and the resulting analog signal will not be identical to the original.

Digital compression on the other hand throws data away in order to package it in a smaller space, the efficiency of the digital compression algorithm determines how much information is lost in order to package the material into the available space.


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post #563 of 6651 Old 03-17-2008, 08:19 AM - Thread Starter
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I personally don't know of any commercially released BDs with DD+. I've heard that one of the versions of Planet Earth has DD+, but haven't been able to confirm that.

It was my original testing of The Condemned and House of 1000 Corpses that reported the 5.1 DTS"HR" output via analog instead of the listed 7.1. I'll repeat those tests and see if all impressions remain.

Lee
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post #564 of 6651 Old 03-17-2008, 08:23 AM
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Looking over the ANSWERS post on Page 6, there are still two categories of stuff that haven't been tested/reported: HDMI 480i playback for standard DVDs and Component playback at 1080i/60 and 1080p/60 for Blu-Ray discs that allow it (all BD discs at this point).

For HDMI 480i we need to check that Blacker Than Black and Peak White data is not being clipped -- in addition to any other odd behavior that might be noticed. This is for folks who need to use an external scaler for CIH screen setups or whatever.

We are also looking for any trick anyone might have discovered to get the player to automatically switch down to HDMI 480i or 480p playback when a standard DVD is played.

For Component playback for BD we need to confirm that Component and HDMI playback works simultaneously (except for 1080p/24 playback where I believe it is known Component doesn't work?) -- again in addition to any other odd behavior.

---------------------------

For things already reported, we are looking for additional confirmation that 1080p/24 can, indeed, be "forced" reliably using the front panel button (which will require testing with a display that is not sensitive to the 24 fps vs. 23.976 fps bug).

We are also looking for additional confirmation on DTS-HD HR and DD+ decoding (for Analog and HDMI PCM output). Are the early reports correct that only the lower quality "core" or "associated" track is rendered?

We are also looking for confirmation that turning on "Mix Audio" causes TrueHD and DTS-HD MA tracks to be rendered as only the "core" or "associated" track for ANALOG output as has already been reported for HDMI output.

And we are looking for additional confirmation that the 3800 has the low LFE bug for HDMI PCM output -- as well as double checking that it does NOT have the bug for Analog output.
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post #565 of 6651 Old 03-17-2008, 08:30 AM
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Originally Posted by Bob Pariseau View Post

We've had reports here that DD+ tracks were being rendered as the lower quality "associated" DD track for both Analog and HDMI PCM. I wonder if these are actually some of the mislabeled Warner BDs you mention.

Could the folks here who reported this for DD+ state again which disc they used to test that? And then perhaps we can confirm whether or not that track actually is BD+ via an HDMI Bitstream test to an appropriate receiver.
--Bob

Searching through the thread, I see that someone used the Planet Earth release as a test. That release is encoded in normal 5.1 DD at 448 kbps (forum member benes' computer read-outs can attest to this), and I believe the packaging even labels it correctly. Therefore, that test is not valid and in no way indicates that the 3800 cannot decode DD+.
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post #566 of 6651 Old 03-17-2008, 08:34 AM
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Originally Posted by MSmith83 View Post

Searching through the thread, I see that someone used the Planet Earth release as a test. That release is encoded in normal 5.1 DD at 448 kbps (forum member benes' computer read-outs can attest to this), and I believe the packaging even labels it correctly. Therefore, that test is not valid and in no way indicates that the 3800 cannot decode DD+.

Got it. I'm going to retract the DD+ warning from the ANSWERS post on Page 6 until we can confirm that someone is actually testing with a real DD+ track.

By the way, SHAMUS confirmed the DTS-HD HR track that was used for the DTS-HD HR test.
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post #567 of 6651 Old 03-17-2008, 08:35 AM
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Originally Posted by joerod View Post

I have had 5 PMs from people asking me if they should get the unit (in the last 24 to 48 hours) and I tell them I can't honestly say YES at this time. I need to read or hear that they are going to remedy the situation and quickly. I realize the 1080p/24 direct signal did not hit until Friday and it has been a weekend since so hopefully they will get on it early this week. I have faith.

Of course that may change in the next 48 to 72 hours...

I think the LFE PCM HDMI issue is just as serious if not more so

JVC 3D: Been there, done that, bought a DLP
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post #568 of 6651 Old 03-17-2008, 08:36 AM
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Can someone sum up all the potential issues with the 3800 at this point? The theread is so long, it is hard to keep track.

There are more than a handful of [op amps] that sound so good that most designers want to be using them as opposed to discreet transistors. Dave Reich, Theta 2009
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post #569 of 6651 Old 03-17-2008, 08:41 AM
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Originally Posted by thebland View Post

Can someone sum up all the potential issues with the 3800 at this point? The theread is so long, it is hard to keep track.

Been there, done that (grin!). See the ANSWERS post on Page 6 of this thread for a summary of the key positive and negative tests reported so for -- some of which are still awaiting additional confirmation. I'm updating that post as each new report comes in.
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post #570 of 6651 Old 03-17-2008, 09:09 AM
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I also do not have issues going straight into my display at the exact 1080p/24 rate. I do when I go into my VP and it reports it at 24 and not 23.98 or 23.97. Trust me, my VP has never been wrong. It reports the pioneer at 23.98 and HD805 and A35. It reports the BD30 at 23.97 and I think the sammy at 23.97. Anyway, it reports the 3800 at 24.00 and then has a stutter every 60 seconds or so. Some may not have an issue but many will.

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