Denon DVD3800BDCI Owner's Thread - Page 21 - AVS Forum
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post #601 of 6651 Old 03-17-2008, 03:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lrstevens421 View Post

Personally I think we're being a little too hard on Denon, after all it's only been a couple of days. Their 3808 & 4308 receivers have seen multiple firmware updates. I have a feeling we'll here something soon, although it's just a feeling.

Has anyone reached out to Denons tech support department about these issues, if so, what was their response?

I would agree with you but read some of his posts. He came at a time when customers had many questions about Denon since it has the Panasonic chip. Example, in question LFE bug, read what he says about the 3800. I think he was just PR.
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post #602 of 6651 Old 03-17-2008, 03:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian-HD View Post

I would agree with you but read some of his posts. He came at a time when customers had many questions about Denon since it has the Panasonic chip. Example, in question LFE bug, read what he says about the 3800. I think he was just PR.

Well I do admit that I respectfully disagreed with him regarding the 2500 and the LFE bug. As a 2500 owner I remain optimistic. Give it a little time.

Making the most out of what I got.
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post #603 of 6651 Old 03-17-2008, 03:54 PM
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It doesn't matter if he has a dedicated thread to himself, he is not showing up there either.

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post #604 of 6651 Old 03-17-2008, 04:59 PM
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Has anyone confirmed or mentioned any issues with uncompressed PCM 5.1 or 7.1 through analog or HDMI (such as with 3:10 to Yuma or Casino Royale)? DTS-HD and DD True HD as well as uncompressed seem to be the predominant blu-ray audio codecs (at least the forty or so I own). DTS-MA and DD True-HD reportedly have no issues with this player. I want this player to replace my Panny 10A which does all I want except DTS-MA over both analog and HDMI. I feed the signal to a Denon 4306 with a Denon 3930 for SACD & SD DVD.
Thanks
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post #605 of 6651 Old 03-17-2008, 05:17 PM
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Quickster2,
We think this player has the low LFE bug for HDMI PCM output -- which, if confirmed, would likely also affect HDMI PCM output of raw PCM tracks.

So far, it does NOT appear it has that bug for Analog output.

However, there have not been any posts that I've spotted specifically reporting on playback of raw PCM tracks one way or the other.

Another thing that still has to be tried is to find out what happens to raw PCM track playback if "Mix Audio" is turned on to enable mixing in of "secondary" or "interactive" audio. It is known the player reduces TrueHD and DTS-HD MA primary audio tracks to the lower quality "core" or "associated" (max 5.1) track when "Mix Audio" is turned on, but I don't believe we've had a report yet testing this with raw PCM primary tracks.
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post #606 of 6651 Old 03-17-2008, 05:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Pariseau View Post

Another thing that still has to be tried is to find out what happens to raw PCM track playback if "Mix Audio" is turned on to enable mixing in of "secondary" or "interactive" audio. It is known the player reduces TrueHD and DTS-HD MA primary audio tracks to the lower quality "core" or "associated" (max 5.1) track when "Mix Audio" is turned on, but I don't believe we've had a report yet testing this with raw PCM primary tracks.
--Bob

Interesting, indeed!

I could not resist.

Using 3:10 to Yuma 7.1 PCM track, while in HD Audio, I get full 7.1 channel sound, according to my AVR panel and speakers. On Mix Audio, my AVR panel shows 7.1 channels, but I get output from only 5.1 speakers.



For Quickster, if you are using HDMI, you can work around the LFE bug. In the player, you can set all speakers to large and reduce all channels except the sub -5dB, then let your AVR handle surround sound as normal.
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post #607 of 6651 Old 03-17-2008, 05:35 PM
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I contacted both Jeff and Denon engineering today. Jeff is out of the office and will return on March 25th but is responding to e-mails, so I await his response to mine. Engineering at Denon have heard NOTHING about this P24 issue and claimed that my call was the first time they had heard about it. They have promised to e-mail Japan today and will get back to me as soon as they get a response.

I need you all to contact Denon support on 201-762-6665 and let them know that you are all seeing this P24 issue. They were rather skeptical that the player was outputting the wrong frame rate. If you call do so as soon after 9.00am EST as you can as the line gets very busy. I had to wait 50 minutes to get through so PLEASE do not give up.
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post #608 of 6651 Old 03-17-2008, 05:55 PM
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I called them late Friday afternoon and was told they would send my query over to Japan. He was laid back and told me I was the first to report this issue...

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post #609 of 6651 Old 03-17-2008, 06:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jsteinhauer View Post

Using 3:10 to Yuma 7.1 PCM track, while in HD Audio, I get full 7.1 channel sound, according to my AVR panel and speakers. On Mix Audio, my AVR panel shows 7.1 channels, but I get output from only 5.1 speakers.

Can you get the bit rate? I wonder whether the raw PCM is downsampled to lower bandwidth as well as being cut back to max 5.1 channels when "Mix Audio" is turned on?

If the full bit rate is preserved, it may be that the BEST audio you can get with "Mix Audio" is the 5.1 subset of a raw PCM track.
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post #610 of 6651 Old 03-17-2008, 06:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joerod View Post

I called them late Friday afternoon and was told they would send my query over to Japan. He was laid back and told me I was the first to report this issue...

Lets hope one of us gets a reply.
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post #611 of 6651 Old 03-17-2008, 06:13 PM
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I plan to call back in the morning and let them know more possible customers are concerned. I will also offer more assistance to them in case they need more troubleshooting...

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post #612 of 6651 Old 03-17-2008, 06:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Digione View Post

Engineering at Denon have heard NOTHING about this P24 issue and claimed that my call was the first time they had heard about it. They were rather skeptical that the player was outputting the wrong frame rate

does'nt surpise me one bit. This is the same type of behavior/response I experienced with a brand-new DVD-3930CI that failed within two months. I talked to two different technical service reps and I got two different responses- ie. "never heard anything like what you're explaining", etc.,...This after waiting for nearly an hour on-hold. I figured since it was a newly released product they would give me more attention, however it did'nt seem to matter.
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post #613 of 6651 Old 03-17-2008, 06:18 PM
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Well, Jon just closed the DenonJeff thread (I 100% agree with him) since he has abandoned it. Out of town or not I still check and read email everyday... Even if he knows nothing he could at least make a phone call... Or better yet have someone else there keep an eye on things while he was gone... Just a quick thought...

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post #614 of 6651 Old 03-17-2008, 06:20 PM
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Let's see, we've got one poster claiming a legal liability, another one doubting his credentials, another saying he's just a PR flack, another who can't understand that he's paid do something other than respond to every single item as soon as it's up...

This is why almost no manufacturers of hardware or producers of software are willing to participate in these forums - it's an un-ending stream of abuse! Grow up, children or you will never have professional relationships of any type.
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post #615 of 6651 Old 03-17-2008, 06:20 PM
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I can only smile knowingly as I read the last few pages of this thread. I've been there. I've been a first mover on new products too often. With all due respect, the hype comes from the way we feed off of each other like this:

The realta is the best ever!
Best Blu-Ray picture ever!
Better than the Panny!
I drove 150 miles to get the only 3800 in (pick a state)!
My dealer says four 3800's just got off the boat and Sam the customs agent is checking them in as I type!
I got one, I got one!
It's the best BD player ever!!!

See what I mean? I've fallen prey to that type of members hype too often. Most recently with the Onkyo 805 so I'm not sitting in judgment. Hopefully I've learned to sit still and wait for the bugs to be found...because there will be bugs.

By the way, how many people posting on this thread actually own the player? Three, four? How many on this thread are really thinking about buying the player? Ten, eleven? I don't know the exact numbers but not too many.
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post #616 of 6651 Old 03-17-2008, 06:25 PM
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Amazing how quickly the tide has changed on this player. I was reading Joerod's very favorable review one minute, and afterwards was leaning towards purchasing one. Then I decided to read ahead and was just floored with the change of opinion. Mostly due to Denon's lack of response to owner's concerns. I'm really quite shocked at Denon's lack of concern over this. Not much class being exhibted by Denon to keep people in the dark. Especially with them representing the more "high end" product line.

With service like I've witnessed so far I'm now definitely looking elsewhere. It's a shame too as it sounded like this thing did a hell of a job on SD dvds. Which would have been ideal for me as I still have a large library of those. Oh well on the bright side I suppose I just saved a bunch of dough.
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post #617 of 6651 Old 03-17-2008, 06:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joerod View Post

Well, Jon just closed the DenonJeff thread (I 100% agree with him) since he has abandoned it. Out of town or not I still check and read email everyday... Even if he knows nothing he could at least make a phone call... Or better yet have someone else there keep an eye on things while he was gone... Just a quick thought...

I thought you and one other member contacted Tech support. I'm going to go out on a limb and guess they haven't rushed to call anyone back?
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post #618 of 6651 Old 03-17-2008, 06:30 PM
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^^ To be fair, Denon's "lack of response" has only been a couple of days. It's safe to say that we have not heard the last from them. The 3800 is still a fantastic player that will be made even better after a few updates .

Making the most out of what I got.
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post #619 of 6651 Old 03-17-2008, 06:33 PM
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So, is it safe to say..

1. There is a LFE bug on LPCM over HDMI? I saw one person seemed to think so per the FAQ, but has this been corroborated?

2. Do you have to physically hit a button on the player to force 1080P24? Or can you set it and forget it if you only play Blu Ray discs @ 1080P24?

There are more than a handful of [op amps] that sound so good that most designers want to be using them as opposed to discreet transistors. Dave Reich, Theta 2009
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post #620 of 6651 Old 03-17-2008, 06:36 PM
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I'm sure it is still a great player (when working correctly). My concern is with how they've been just kind of lead on a wild goose chase. I mean certainly they could've had some sort of update by now. Even if it was just another dose of "you're the first complaint" we've gotten on it. I suppose it would comforting to get at least that much. At least it would be something other then just being ignored.
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post #621 of 6651 Old 03-17-2008, 06:51 PM
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I still think it is a great player that just needs to be tweaked with a firmware. The 1080p/24 issue is BIG to me. I need to go back and EDIT my review. Now if only I knew which page it was on...

Yes, you can set it to do 1080p/24 then forget about it. ONly problem is with my VP i always end up adjusting the signal since it is wrong. It is funny that the BD30 and rest of the units do it right just not the 1999.99 msrp unit...

I will report back after I talk to them again tomorrow...

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post #622 of 6651 Old 03-17-2008, 06:52 PM
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But do you have to actively select 1080P24 when you use the player? And is there and LFE over LPCm bug?

There are more than a handful of [op amps] that sound so good that most designers want to be using them as opposed to discreet transistors. Dave Reich, Theta 2009
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post #623 of 6651 Old 03-17-2008, 07:02 PM
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I don't have to actively select it once it has been selected in the set up menu. I do have to select my VP to send out an exact 1080p/24 (like what the 3800 is sending) so my VW200 does not freak out. If I don't then it will send it the normal 1080p/23.98 or 23.97 signal. Which happens to be the same signal I get from all my other players instead of a direct 1080p/24. As for the low LFE issue I have not noticed it yet and I do not own the DVE dvd to test it. I will get it on Blu ray next week but may not have this unit when I do end up getting it... That all depends on what I read and hear from Denon... So far, not looking good.

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post #624 of 6651 Old 03-17-2008, 07:07 PM
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Joe, I had this player side by side with a 2500 and the PQ looked indentical at 1080p24. Is this your preception as well? I wanted to get the opinion of someone with a larger screen.

Making the most out of what I got.
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post #625 of 6651 Old 03-17-2008, 07:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thebland View Post

So, is it safe to say..

1. There is a LFE bug on LPCM over HDMI? I saw one person seemed to think so per the FAQ, but has this been corroborated?

2. Do you have to physically hit a button on the player to force 1080P24? Or can you set it and forget it if you only play Blu Ray discs @ 1080P24?

We have had ONE report that the low LFE bug exists over HDMI PCM. The report is straightforward, but it has not yet been confirmed. We are seeking confirmation from other owners posting here. Surely by now there is another owner with an HDMI PCM setup who can do this simple test.

The report on 1080p/24 "forcing" is that you have to hit the button on the front panel to set it initially. We have two conflicting reports on whether it will STAY set after that for BD playback, even in the face of playing an SD DVD in between or just Stopping and restarting the player. Again, further reports would be welcome.
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post #626 of 6651 Old 03-17-2008, 08:25 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joerod View Post

I don't have to actively select it once it has been selected in the set up menu. I do have to select my VP to send out an exact 1080p/24 (like what the 3800 is sending) so my VW200 does not freak out. If I don't then it will send it the normal 1080p/23.98 or 23.97 signal. Which happens to be the same signal I get from all my other players instead of a direct 1080p/24. As for the low LFE issue I have not noticed it yet and I do not own the DVE dvd to test it. I will get it on Blu ray next week but may not have this unit when I do end up getting it... That all depends on what I read and hear from Denon... So far, not looking good.

Joerod...trust me, I had this unit for a week...Sorry to say, I got rid of it...Back in love with my trusty ole BD30...
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post #627 of 6651 Old 03-18-2008, 04:57 AM
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joe,

Thanks for your comments on the 3800 and how it compares to other players.

What size and type of display are you using?

One point that I think is worth mentioning is when you choose to be an early adopter, be sure to buy the product from a place that will give you a 100% refund. As you can see, for a $2000 player to not do 1080p24 correctly and not be able to get in touch with the Denon rep., the clear choice for many is to send it back.

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post #628 of 6651 Old 03-18-2008, 05:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joerod View Post

I would say that at 1080p/24 all the players are nearly identical. It is being able to make adjustments on some that set them apart. After being able to tweak the 3800 with its vast settings I was able to get a better picture than the 2500. Not by much and of course your mileage may vary. Of course with the 3800 not doing 1080p/24 correctly the 2500 is definitely the better choice at this point. I would even venture to say the BD30 is the better choice or even the A30 (which does 1080p/23.98 right)...

Joe, I would be curious to know what settings you found produced the best picture.
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post #629 of 6651 Old 03-18-2008, 05:28 AM
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^^^I can't speak for Joe but I would probably guess the Realta NR has something to do with it. The 2500 has a few tweaks as well but I don't think it's Noise Reduction feature works on hi-def sources like the Realta does.

Making the most out of what I got.
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post #630 of 6651 Old 03-18-2008, 05:47 AM
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Does anybody know if the 2500 has the same P24 issue as the 3800? If it doesn't what is the difference in the video processing or is this truly just a firmware bug in the 3800?
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