Denon DVD3800BDCI Owner's Thread - Page 22 - AVS Forum
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post #631 of 6654 Old 03-18-2008, 06:49 AM
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I had two specific requirements for this player in my setup.

The first requirement I had for this player was the ability to "force" YCbCr color space to be sent to my video processor. The DVI-based VP has the ability to modify the EDID settings, but the 3800 apparently looks down the chain to the DVI display and only sends RGB. It does not allow me to select YCbCr in the menu, so the 3800 does not have this capability.

This is not really that big of a deal, but coupled with the fact that the RGB settings for Enhanced and Normal do not have any effect is disconcerting. Another user reported those settings were measured and were not according to specifications, but I cannot find that post.

The second requirement I had for this player was the ability to simultaneously send out a decoded Dolby True HD / DTS-HD M.A. signal via the Multi-Channel Analog connections along with a companion DD / DTS core bitstream via SPDIF connections. The 3800 has this capability, so here is my question:

Do you think other profile 1.1 or 2.0 Blu-ray players will have this capability? In the 3800 discussion thread, some members were of the opinion that this "trick" would not be possible. That makes me wonder if the Denon is special in this regard.

Thanks for any input.

Mark
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post #632 of 6654 Old 03-18-2008, 06:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Digione View Post

Does anybody know if the 2500 has the same P24 issue as the 3800? If it doesn't what is the difference in the video processing or is this truly just a firmware bug in the 3800?

The 2500 does not suffer from this.

Making the most out of what I got.
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post #633 of 6654 Old 03-18-2008, 11:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by giomania View Post

Despite the additional A/D and D/A conversions, the Burr-Brown DAC's in the Lexicon are really transparent. I just cannot live without the Lexicon's bass management, since I am using both LFE and L/R subs. This is the best scenario for me, given my equipment limitations.

Mark

Quote:
Originally Posted by Geof View Post

IIRC source direct bypasses the 3800's "speaker management" (levels, and distances) which means you have to do that in the MC12 and you are. L7 can then re-expand the audio back to 7 channels. This is the way I had mine setup (until the 3800 analogs dropped out).

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Originally Posted by Geof View Post

Err, actually I take this back. I had setup the speaker configuration for 5.1 (eliminating the rear channels) in the 3800. I left distances and levels unchanged (I was going by the assumption that the 3800 would feed the rear info into the side channels when the rear channels were set to none in the configuration setup).

I initialized the player to see if it would help with the squiggly horizontal line issue I am having when the disc is stopped and in 1080p/24 mode.

It did not help, but when I re-set up everything, I noticed that the speaker settings are not accessible when in source direct mode. Basically, if I run source direct, I cannot tell the 3800 that only have a 5.1 input in the Lexicon by turning off the rear speakers.

I know this is an issue with 7.1 soundtracks, but also think this may cause steering issues with 5.1 soundtracks. I'm thinking it is better if I turn off source direct, set all the speaker distances and levels the same, and set them to full range and/or the highest crossover setting.

Thanks for any input.

Mark
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post #634 of 6654 Old 03-18-2008, 11:20 AM
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Originally Posted by Bob Pariseau View Post

We have had ONE report that the low LFE bug exists over HDMI PCM. The report is straightforward, but it has not yet been confirmed. We are seeking confirmation from other owners posting here. Surely by now there is another owner with an HDMI PCM setup who can do this simple test.

I can confirm the low LFE bug assuming I did the test correctly. Using DVE-DVD player set to HDMI Multi(Normal) measured using SPL meter front channel and LFE. Switched player to HDMI Multi (LPCM) measured front channel adjusted volume to match previous measurement and the LFE channel was 5-7 db low.

As mentioned earlier...setting speakers to large and reducing all channel levels other than sub by -5db is a work-around that measured correctly.

I also will add that the drop in LFE was not observed when switching between bitstream and LPCM using analog.
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post #635 of 6654 Old 03-18-2008, 11:30 AM
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Originally Posted by joerod View Post

I still think it is a great player that just needs to be tweaked with a firmware. The 1080p/24 issue is BIG to me. I need to go back and EDIT my review. Now if only I knew which page it was on...

Yes, you can set it to do 1080p/24 then forget about it. ONly problem is with my VP i always end up adjusting the signal since it is wrong. It is funny that the BD30 and rest of the units do it right just not the 1999.99 msrp unit...

I will report back after I talk to them again tomorrow...

i set to hdmi auto and it selects the best possible. however, this ends up 24p on blu-ray and 60p on sd. have you found a way to force 24p for sd-dvd? (btw, using the front panel button makes no difference for me...and i run direct from 3800 to vw60).
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post #636 of 6654 Old 03-18-2008, 11:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by twodown View Post

I can confirm the low LFE bug assuming I did the test correctly. Using DVE-DVD player set to HDMI Multi(Normal) measured using SPL meter front channel and LFE. Switched player to HDMI Multi (LPCM) measured front channel adjusted volume to match previous measurement and the LFE channel was 5-7 db low.

Thanks for that. Deep sigh...

RBFC, we now have confirmation for item (9) in the first post as regards HDMI PCM output of decoded DD5.1. The low LFE bug is present for HDMI PCM output.

SHAMUS and others, I'm not sure what the correct procedure is supposed to be to confirm or refute that the low LFE bug exists on the Analog outputs as well. Have you looked at the post reporting that there was *NOT* an LFE problem for Analog output? Does it sound like that poster did the test correctly?

Also, what's the best way to confirm the problem exists even for raw PCM tracks? And is there a good test disc to use to test this as well for TrueHD or DTS-HD MA tracks (presuming the tester also has an AVR that can decode these for comparison)?

It's probably not that important for us to nail down all these loose ends now -- obviously Denon has a problem they need to fix. But when a fix DOES appear it would be good if we understood how to test that they've actually fixed all aspects of the problem.
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post #637 of 6654 Old 03-18-2008, 11:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by banjofan View Post

i set to hdmi auto and it selects the best possible. however, this ends up 24p on blu-ray and 60p on sd. have you found a way to force 24p for sd-dvd? (btw, using the front panel button makes no difference for me...and i run direct from 3800 to vw60).

The reports from testers so far is that the 3800 does not support conversion of standard DVD playback to 1080p/24, even for "film-based" SD-DVD content where that could make sense (depending on the capabilities of your display).
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post #638 of 6654 Old 03-18-2008, 11:37 AM
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Yep. Denon has their work cut out for them. I'm holding off on this player for the time being. However - If Denon comes back (I hope they do) w/ appropriate firmware fixes I'll reconsider.
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post #639 of 6654 Old 03-18-2008, 11:45 AM
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Bob, I edited my earlier post to indicate I did not see the drop in LFE when switching between bitstream and LPCM using analog output.
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post #640 of 6654 Old 03-18-2008, 11:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Pariseau View Post

SHAMUS and others, I'm not sure what the correct procedure is supposed to be to confirm or refute that the low LFE bug exists on the Analog outputs as well. Have you looked at the post reporting that there was *NOT* an LFE problem for Analog output? Does it sound like that poster did the test correctly?

--Bob

Bob.. the HDMI LFE issue ends up existing because the player is attenuating the LFE for the analog output.. this design "choice" should singal that the analog outputs are correct.. if the analog was wrong, there is something terribly wrong.
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post #641 of 6654 Old 03-18-2008, 01:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by giomania View Post


I know this is an issue with 7.1 soundtracks, but also think this may cause steering issues with 5.1 soundtracks. I'm thinking it is better if I turn off source direct, set all the speaker distances and levels the same, and set them to full range and/or the highest crossover setting.

Mark

Yes, that is where I was at before I had to pack it up and ship it back. I think that is the best approach and I've read that L7 does a stellar job of recreating the back 2 (rear) channels (if only I'd had more time to find out). I also hooked up the coax SPDIF connection and assigned that to another MC-12 input. I was going to use that for sDVD's and the analogs for BD DVD's. While I'm not deluding myself with regards to ultimate performance I do think the MC12 would do quite well for the new surround tracks, enough so that I'm waiting for the next generation Lexicon before making any processor changes.

Geof
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post #642 of 6654 Old 03-18-2008, 01:32 PM
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TWODOWN and FILMMIXER,
Thanks for that! I had a faulty memory on whether Analog outputs were also at risk in the Panasonic version of this problem.

So it makes sense that we are seeing the low LFE problem for DD5.1 tracks decoded for output as HDMI PCM, but *NOT* seeing it on the Analog outputs.

And of course the problem wouldn't exist for HDMI Bitstream output for any packed format.

I guess we still need to confirm whether the problem also exists for raw PCM tracks played via HDMI PCM, and for other packed formats, particularly regular DTS, DTS-HD MA and TrueHD tracks decoded for output as HDMI PCM. If we've guessed correctly as to the cause of the bug we SHOULD be seeing the bug for those as well, correct?
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post #643 of 6654 Old 03-18-2008, 01:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joerod View Post

I just received a call from Denon support (actually Engineer Support ) and they told me they will have a firmware fix for the 1080p/24 issue within 2 weeks! He also said it would correct a few minor things as well but did not divulge anymore details. Either way this is terrific news. He also mentioned they are watching this thread to! I am glad I called in there last Friday to report the 1080p/24 issue. And then them calling me back with news about an UPDATE coming soon really impressed me.

EXCELLENT news Joe. We should nickname you Joe "Firmware" Rod, or something like that .

Making the most out of what I got.
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post #644 of 6654 Old 03-18-2008, 02:38 PM
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Thanks Joe,

Snatching victory from the jaws of defeat....
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post #645 of 6654 Old 03-18-2008, 02:43 PM
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Originally Posted by joerod View Post

He also mentioned they are watching this thread too!

praise the lord!
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post #646 of 6654 Old 03-18-2008, 02:48 PM
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post #647 of 6654 Old 03-18-2008, 03:06 PM
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Originally Posted by joerod View Post

He also mentioned they are watching this thread to!

Great News Joe! That was certainly FAST!

How could they not be watching this thread? AVS is made up of the best Beta testers around!
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post #648 of 6654 Old 03-18-2008, 03:08 PM
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If they are watching...where is the similtaneous composite video out with 1080P24 over HDMI? DD+ and DTS HR decoding?

Good news! Good job, Joe.

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post #649 of 6654 Old 03-18-2008, 03:15 PM
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Helloooooooo Denon - if you can find a way to force 1080 24p with regular DVDs I'll buy one. I promise.

Dick Fogg
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post #650 of 6654 Old 03-18-2008, 03:18 PM
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Does any 3800 owner have a BD Video Essentials disc to test the potential low LFE issue that is effecting the 2500?

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There are more than a handful of [op amps] that sound so good that most designers want to be using them as opposed to discreet transistors. Dave Reich, Theta 2009
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post #651 of 6654 Old 03-18-2008, 03:19 PM
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Thanks everyone!

I am excited to. DenonJoe? I think I like JoeFIRMrod better.

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post #652 of 6654 Old 03-18-2008, 03:45 PM
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Hey FIRMrod, can you get them to fix the 2500 too.
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post #653 of 6654 Old 03-18-2008, 03:49 PM
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Joe,
Would you have remote codes for say a Pronto remote for the 3800? I tried to teach my pronto remote using the 3800 remote but no luck!!
Ash
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post #654 of 6654 Old 03-18-2008, 04:39 PM
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Hello Gentlemen,

I am very excited to inform you all that I took the plunge and purchased the DVD-3800BDCI to replace my Sony BDP-S1. So far it is working like a charm. The video and sound from this unit is the best I have seen and heard on my system. My system consists of a Rotel RSP-1098 with 7.1 analog input, and a Rotel RMB-1095 amplifier. I use Vandersteen loud speakers as my main, center and surrounds. For LFE I use a pair of Definitive Super Cube 1. My video display is a Sony-G70 CRT with resolutions of 1080I and 720P. Since I also own a Denon 3910 so set up was fairly easy. I have not had any issues at all with this unit, but then again the resolution I am running is 1080I and 720P I am not using 1880p-24. I am not having any issues with LFE everything seems to be fine. All the correct audio is outputting from the analog 7.1 output including DTS HD Master. It would have been nice if Denon would have included the display to say DTS HD MASTER. So far very happy with the unit lets hope that Denon refines the player from any issues that might be out there.
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post #655 of 6654 Old 03-18-2008, 04:45 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ash Sharma View Post

Joe,
Would you have remote codes for say a Pronto remote for the 3800? I tried to teach my pronto remote using the 3800 remote but no luck!!
Ash

Many of the same codes are used for the 3800 and the 3930 DVD player. I know this because I own both, and both drawers will open, etc. when a command button is pushed on the 3800 remote. The 3930's on/off and some other functions operate the 3800, so I imagine you might have better luck finding remote codes for the more prevalent 3930.

Of course, you'll probably be able to get what you need from Denon sometime soon as well.

Lee

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post #656 of 6654 Old 03-18-2008, 05:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ash Sharma View Post

Joe,
Would you have remote codes for say a Pronto remote for the 3800? I tried to teach my pronto remote using the 3800 remote but no luck!!
Ash

Any Denon DVD player codes will probably work fine. The codes from my replaced Denon 2910 work like a charm. You can probably get these easily in a variety of formats from remotecentral.com
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post #657 of 6654 Old 03-18-2008, 05:16 PM
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i heard Joe can cure acne!
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post #658 of 6654 Old 03-18-2008, 05:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DVD MAN View Post

Hello Gentlemen,

...It would have been nice if Denon would have included the display to say DTS HD MASTER. So far very happy with the unit lets hope that Denon refines the player from any issues that might be out there.

Mine says "DTS HD-MSTR" for those DTS-MA tracks on the 3800 display. Also LPCM and TrueHD are showing up too.
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post #659 of 6654 Old 03-18-2008, 05:27 PM
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Good point. This is my first Denon unit in 4 years so I am not much help in the remote codes department.

We are getting ready to watch I Am Legend tonite. And of course later in the week Enchanted.

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post #660 of 6654 Old 03-18-2008, 05:55 PM
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All right, I apologize if this is a really stupid question. There are a few reasons why I bought this player, and one is that I wanted a very good upconverting DVD player without needing an additional piece of hardware. It otherwise meets my needs. However, I need help objectively convincing myselft that SD DVDs are looking better, and I don't know how to prove this. By eye, with a few random DVD's, I sense a perceptible difference, but it so far has not been striking, and maybe it's not something that is terribly important on a 52" LCD display. You can tell me that. I need to convince myself that I need to keep this player, rather than opting for the 2500, which may fulfill my other needs.
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