Denon DVD3800BDCI Owner's Thread - Page 26 - AVS Forum
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post #751 of 6651 Old 03-20-2008, 09:00 AM
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Originally Posted by RUR View Post

and I get the same results i.e. it works on SM3 and does not work on Fifth Element. Are we sure the test patterns are on the FE disc?


7669 works on Dogma, as well.
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post #752 of 6651 Old 03-20-2008, 09:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RUR View Post

and I get the same results i.e. it works on SM3 and does not work on Fifth Element. Are we sure the test patterns are on the FE disc?

Yep, I have accessed them with my Pioneer Elite BDP-HD1. I don't have SM3. I will have to look to see what other Sony / BMG discs I might have.

Interesting...thanks.

Mark
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post #753 of 6651 Old 03-20-2008, 09:02 AM
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Originally Posted by bferr1 View Post

Make sure you are truly at the main menu and not on a set up or special features tab. 7669 only works from the true main menu, not a sub-menu.

Pretty sure I am...the disc "boots" to that menu.

Mark
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post #754 of 6651 Old 03-20-2008, 09:48 AM
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Originally Posted by Anthony A. View Post

do you own both and have you actually done a true side by side comparison?

yes i own both...i chose these titles because they both have alot of film grain...it is distracting on the xa-2 but much smoother on the 3800 to the point where its really not distracting at all
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post #755 of 6651 Old 03-20-2008, 09:55 AM
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Originally Posted by FilmMixer View Post

Don't forget that AVS is also a Denon dealer

i got mine from AVS...good price and fast service...
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post #756 of 6651 Old 03-20-2008, 09:57 AM
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Originally Posted by John Ballentine View Post

You had to decrease brightness a ton because Denon defaults to 7.5 IRE instead of "0 IRE" If you like you can change this in the Realta menu "setup level" and put your brightness back to normal.

how do you get to the realta set up menu?
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post #757 of 6651 Old 03-20-2008, 10:26 AM
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Originally Posted by banjofan View Post

how do you get to the realta set up menu?

While playing a disc hit "Mode" then "Enter" (Unforntunately it does not come up when paused )
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post #758 of 6651 Old 03-20-2008, 10:41 AM
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Originally Posted by eulogytool View Post

I'm talking about when I have the 3800 decode the 7.1 DTS-MA soundtrack on Pans Labyrinth, and send the PCM to my 9.8 The 3800 shows DTS-Master but my 9.8 only shows 5.1 PCM. I have the 3800 set to 'HD-Audio' and the output set to 'LPCM'.

I forgot I have X-Men The Last Stand, which is DTS-MA 6.1. So I tested that, the 3800 decoded it, and it shows 7.1 PCM on my 9.8, which I assume is normal, even though it's a 6.1 soundtrack. Anyway, at least I get the back channels that way. Either way, it's no biggie to me, since I can just bitstream.

So, just to let folks know that there may be something wrong with the decoding of 7.1 DTS-MA on Pans Labyrinth, and sending the PCM over HDMI. Since the 3800 is the first and only player that can actually decode DTS-MA, there's really no way to tell, but I am betting that it's just something with Pans Labyrinth, since other 7.1 discs seem to be decoded fine.

Pan's Labrynth is definitely coming out 7.1 on my 3800bd. I'm running analog 7.1, though. If your 3800bd is saying DTS-MSTR and you checked the settings on it so that it is not suppressing the back 2 channels, then it must be some setting in your receiver. Otherwise, why would it work on analog and not HDMI?

"Shoot Em Up" is another (and not so subtle) 7.1 DTS-MA disc to test. You'll definitely be able to hear if the back 2 speakers are working properly...
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post #759 of 6651 Old 03-20-2008, 10:55 AM
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Originally Posted by banjofan View Post

i got mine from AVS...good price and fast service...

Forgive the ignorant question, but how did you buy one from AVS? What was their price? PM me if you want. Thanks!
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post #760 of 6651 Old 03-20-2008, 10:58 AM
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If your 3800bd is saying DTS-MSTR and you checked the settings on it so that it is not suppressing the back 2 channels, then it must be some setting in your receiver. Otherwise, why would it work on analog and not HDMI?

I don't know, it worked fine with X-Men. Regarding analog, doesn't the 3800 decode DTS-HD fine over anolog, but not HDMI? So apparantly, there are some differences. I'll keep playing around with it..
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post #761 of 6651 Old 03-20-2008, 11:00 AM
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Originally Posted by giomania View Post

Pretty sure I am...the disc "boots" to that menu.

Mark

It doesn't work on the 2500 either!
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post #762 of 6651 Old 03-20-2008, 11:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EWL5 View Post

I'm using the normal DVE and not "Pro."

I will give the "SOURCE DIRECT" a try. This is my understanding of SOURCE DIRECT: with "SOURCE DIRECT" on, I will get the unadulterated soundtrack straight to my receiver. With it off, the speaker sizes chosen will dictate how the LFE is redirected to the subwoofer based on crossover in the 3800. Is this correct?

If you are using a 1.3 receiver that can can handle the decoding bitstream, or an older HDMI receiver that can do the bass management when sent PCM, than source direct should be set to on.
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post #763 of 6651 Old 03-20-2008, 11:04 AM
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So are studios mixing 7.1 discrete tracks as a new trend? I assume that the old trend of just using the commercial theater mix is no longer done and that home theater is such a large market that studios re-mix for a home theater soundtrack? This is great news, but it means I'm going to have to go from 5.1 to 7.1 sometime in the near future... which is expensive considering I use (5) B&W N802 and (5) Bryston 7BST per channel... nonetheless, if the mixes are going 7.1, I'll have to upgrade to 7.1 as well.....

I imagine I'll have to put the side channels at 170-180 degrees (directly to the side or slightly forward), and the surround channels at 190 degrees or greater (typical surround position as in the current 5.1)
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post #764 of 6651 Old 03-20-2008, 11:22 AM
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Originally Posted by shamus View Post

If you are using a 1.3 receiver that can can handle the decoding bitstream, or an older HDMI receiver that can do the bass management when sent PCM, than source direct should be set to on.

Is it safe to assume that since the Source Direct is OFF by default that this machine is catering to the analog crowd?

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post #765 of 6651 Old 03-20-2008, 11:36 AM
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Originally Posted by EWL5 View Post

Is it safe to assume that since the Source Direct is OFF by default that this machine is catering to the analog crowd?

Probably just a decision to not hide that feature to people who don't read manuals.
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post #766 of 6651 Old 03-20-2008, 12:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Health Nut View Post

So are studios mixing 7.1 discrete tracks as a new trend? I assume that the old trend of just using the commercial theater mix is no longer done and that home theater is such a large market that studios re-mix for a home theater soundtrack?

The prep that is going into home video releases hasn't really changed over the last 5 years, i.e. studios that have been putting time and effort (i.e. Disney, Sony, New Line, Lions Gate, MGM, etc.) into doing it still are, and those that were not haven't made any huge strides towards doing anything differently.

In regards to 7.1, New Line and Lions Gate are very pro active about it. Most other studios that I have spoken with aren't running to jump on that bandwagon as of yet... there are some interesting developments coming, but it isn't going to be the norm anytime soon.

And I know this gets into a long discussion, but even when we do make home theater masters, it is rarely much different from the theatrical mix... we mainly compensate for the differnt reference levels, bass management and the like that exist between the theatrical and home environments.
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post #767 of 6651 Old 03-20-2008, 12:38 PM
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Thank-you... I love any development that will improve home theater... I just love D-Box, discrete tactile, etc...
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post #768 of 6651 Old 03-20-2008, 12:46 PM
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Hello,

I just received my 3800 this week. When I hooked it up to my Panasonic plasma TV, I noticed the brightness of the picture was too bright. It is much brighter than any of my other Blu-Ray and DVD players. I have to reduce the brightness control on the TV to -5 (it was 0 originally). The 3800 video controls appear to be all set to standard levels. The technician at Crutchfield was not able find a solution. I am only using the HDMI connection. Can anyone help?

Thanks!
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post #769 of 6651 Old 03-20-2008, 01:02 PM
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Originally Posted by bferr1 View Post

Forgive the ignorant question, but how did you buy one from AVS? What was their price? PM me if you want. Thanks!

you can get their number from www.avscience.com and they can give you details...i also got my sony vw60 from them last fall...
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post #770 of 6651 Old 03-20-2008, 01:15 PM
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Originally Posted by vdibona View Post

Hello,

I just received my 3800 this week. When I hooked it up to my Panasonic plasma TV, I noticed the brightness of the picture was too bright. It is much brighter than any of my other Blu-Ray and DVD players. I have to reduce the brightness control on the TV to -5 (it was 0 originally). The 3800 video controls appear to be all set to standard levels. The technician at Crutchfield was not able find a solution. I am only using the HDMI connection. Can anyone help?

Thanks!

I would guess you have some sort of default setting on with your 3800 that is not a default in your other sources...... That said, post calibration, all should look the same if you can save each source into its own memory.

There are more than a handful of [op amps] that sound so good that most designers want to be using them as opposed to discreet transistors. Dave Reich, Theta 2009
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post #771 of 6651 Old 03-20-2008, 02:02 PM
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for anyone using a lexicon 12hd and this unit. Are you using hdmi and can you get DTSMAHD and which settings do you use?

I know it sounds great and looks great.....but can we communicate with it? If not it is useless:)
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post #772 of 6651 Old 03-20-2008, 02:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EWL5 View Post

This is my understanding of SOURCE DIRECT: with "SOURCE DIRECT" on, I will get the unadulterated soundtrack straight to my receiver?

sort of how I understand it, the track is sent "full-range" (or "raw") for the processor to "tweak".
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post #773 of 6651 Old 03-20-2008, 02:37 PM
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Originally Posted by vdibona View Post

Hello,

I just received my 3800 this week. When I hooked it up to my Panasonic plasma TV, I noticed the brightness of the picture was too bright. It is much brighter than any of my other Blu-Ray and DVD players. I have to reduce the brightness control on the TV to -5 (it was 0 originally). The 3800 video controls appear to be all set to standard levels. The technician at Crutchfield was not able find a solution. I am only using the HDMI connection. Can anyone help?

Thanks!

Somehow, the IRE setting "issue" should be at the forefront of this thread. It keeps cropping up. vdibona, set the IRE to zero, instead of 7.5, and you will likely be fine.
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post #774 of 6651 Old 03-20-2008, 03:00 PM
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Originally Posted by thebland View Post

I would guess you have some sort of default setting on with your 3800 that is not a default in your other sources...... That said, post calibration, all should look the same if you can save each source into its own memory.

Not exactly. I changed my IRE to 0 and tried recalibrating but the BTB bar disappeared on me on DVE no matter how high the brightness setting goes. Changed back IRE to 7.5 and the BTB bar reappears. I've seen this happen on other devices but letting others know sometimes you don't have a "choice."

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post #775 of 6651 Old 03-20-2008, 03:27 PM
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Originally Posted by EWL5 View Post

Not exactly. I changed my IRE to 0 and tried recalibrating but the BTB bar disappeared on me on DVE no matter how high the brightness setting goes. Changed back IRE to 7.5 and the BTB bar reappears. I've seen this happen on other devices but letting others know sometimes you don't have a "choice."

That's correct. Some devices will clip Blacker Than Black or Peak White data with one setting and not the other, and it could be EITHER setting that has the problem. Obviously to test that you need to know that your DISPLAY (or intervening AVR) doesn't have its own problem clipping this stuff.

I'm not sure we've actually confirmed whether or not the 3800 has this problem with either of those settings (independent of which setting might be best for working with any given display).

The above is for Component (ANALOG) video output.

--------------------------------------------------------

For DIGITAL video output (HDMI or DVI) the "correct" choice for RGB data format output for home theater use is "Studio RGB" -- i.e., "black" is encoded as digital 16 instead of digital 0. Blacker Than Black data goes in the range from 1-15 if it hasn't been mistakenly clipped. [NOTE: Technically there is no such thing as "IRE" setup level for Digital video. IRE setup level is a concept that only makes sense for Analog video. This hasn't kept some clever product marketing types from confusing these concepts in menu entries and manuals -- see below.]

Using "Extended or PC RGB" (black encoded as 0) means you HAVE TO lose Blacker Than Black data because there is no such thing as pixel values less than 0 -- i.e., there's no data range to hold that stuff.

Using YCbCr output for HDMI should automatically get you "black"=16 for home theater devices, so the choice here for digital video output usually only rears its head when using RGB output data format. Note that YCbCr (and in particular YCbCr 4:4:4) is the normal default data format for HDMI connections and RGB (either Studio or Extended) is the normal default for DVI connections.

Some devices have a screwy user interface where they make this choice for DIGITAL video using the IRE 0 or IRE 7.5 setting that actually only makes semantic sense for ANALOG video. And some devices have two separate controls -- an IRE setup level for Analog and a Blacks setting for Digital where the Blacks setting has two choices -- which could be labeled just about anything. The weirdest situation however is when even devices with two separate menu items like that STILL alter the Digital video output if you change the IRE setup menu item (or the Analog output if you alter the digital Blacks setup item).

Again, I don't know that we've had enough reports here to know if the 3800 runs afoul of any of these mistakes. We've had a couple reports here that the 3800 may not be sending out the correct DIGITAL video according to these settings, and I'm wondering whether there might be a setting conflict between the Analog and Digital video sides of the setup stuff that might be causing this.

This is just background for folks testing the 3800 and for folks trying to get its video levels properly calibrated using controls in the 3800 and in their display.

----------------------------------------------------

And the last gotcha here is that far too many devices treat 480i video specially -- either Component 480i or HDMI 480i. That means testing this stuff needs to be done BOTH for 480i and for whatever other output resolution you commonly use. And again, to test it, you need to know you are using a display (or AVR) that doesn't have its OWN problems with 480i.

We haven't had any good reports here yet on how well the 3800 handles 480i output (either Component or HDMI) -- an item of interest to folks who want to use an external scaler for SD-DVD viewing for CIH screen setups for example.
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post #776 of 6651 Old 03-20-2008, 03:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EWL5 View Post

Not exactly. I changed my IRE to 0 and tried recalibrating but the BTB bar disappeared on me on DVE no matter how high the brightness setting goes. Changed back IRE to 7.5 and the BTB bar reappears. I've seen this happen on other devices but letting others know sometimes you don't have a "choice."

Do you already have the BD version of DVE or are you referring to the SD DVD version?

Thanks.

Mark
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post #777 of 6651 Old 03-20-2008, 04:25 PM
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Originally Posted by giomania View Post

Do you already have the BD version of DVE or are you referring to the SD DVD version?

Thanks.

Mark

SD only. BD version comes out next Tue, I think. But the results concerning BTB are still valid.

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post #778 of 6651 Old 03-20-2008, 04:38 PM
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The Gramophone in Birmingham is supposed to have some on order. A previous post indicated that 6ave.com had some. I ordered mine from them on 3/15, and it should be arriving tomorrow. I didn't feel like waiting. I can't wait to try it out. I'll give my impressions on how it performs with my analog setup.

I talked to the Gramophone as well. I ordered mine today from Audio/Video System in Royal Oak. I have bought all my audio equipment from them (Klipsch & Denon). Brian Scott gives me a decent deal. Thanks for your reply.
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post #779 of 6651 Old 03-20-2008, 04:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Bob Pariseau View Post

We haven't had any good reports here yet on how well the 3800 handles 480i output (either Component or HDMI) -- an item of interest to folks who want to use an external scaler for SD-DVD viewing for CIH screen setups for example.
--Bob

Bob, I can try sending 480i from the 3800 using HDMI and then my TV will scale to the native rez. What should I test?

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post #780 of 6651 Old 03-20-2008, 04:57 PM
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Originally Posted by EWL5 View Post

Bob, I can try sending 480i from the 3800 using HDMI and then my TV will scale to the native rez. What should I test?

Use the SD-DVD version of Digital Video Essentials.

Confirm that the video calibration to your display which appears to work best for Blu-Ray discs and upscaled SD-DVD discs ALSO works best for SD-DVD discs when output as HDMI 480i from the player. I.e. that the levels that are correct in your TV for Blu-Ray or upscaled SD-DVD don't have to be changed to view SD-DVD at HDMI 480i.

Then double-check that both the Blacker Than Black and Peak White data are present. For Blacker Than Black you will need to temporarily raise Brightness in the Display as you know. For Peak White check that the region that's whiter than the marker dot in the DVE gray scale ramp is distinguishably brighter than the Reference White point marked by that dot. For this last test to be meaningful, you need to know the calibration levels you are using in your Display actually allow it to render Peak White above Reference White distinguishably. If Peak White seems to be clipped to the same level as Reference White try temporarily lowering the Contrast setting in your Display to see if Peak White becomes distinguishably brighter than Reference White.

Run through the other test patterns on DVE to see if you spot anything unexpected compared to what you already have seen when output from the player at higher resolution.

One thing to look for is whether the 3800 crops pixels around any of the edges when set to HDMI 480i output. Another thing to look for is whether the Color Upsampling Error (CUE) appears to be present for HDMI 480i output.

Finally, if you are also using HDMI for audio, confirm that the traditional DD5.1 and DTS from SD-DVDs transmits as expected over HDMI even when it is set to 480i.

If you are not comfortable with any of these tests, please feel free to do just what you know how to do and report that. Any reports at all would be helpful at this point.

Thanks!
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