**WARNING** DTS Masters bitstreamed to Yamaha, Onkyo or Integra can damage speakers!! - Page 10 - AVS Forum
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post #271 of 2238 Old 03-21-2008, 05:20 PM
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Originally Posted by bunkaroo View Post

Can the BD30 decode DTS-HD? I thought it could only bitstream it. Do you get 5.1 PCM at the receiver?

No it can't decode DTS-HD MA, but it decodes the 1.5mbit DTS Core into a 5.1 PCM signal.
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post #272 of 2238 Old 03-21-2008, 05:27 PM
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I went to BB and pick up FF and did the test and no popping sound from my onkyo sr805.
I'm using the PAN BD30 set to bitstream and played the same scene about 4x's.

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post #273 of 2238 Old 03-21-2008, 05:41 PM
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Originally Posted by jsil View Post

I went to BB and pick up FF and did the test and no popping sound from my onkyo sr805.
I'm using the PAN BD30 set to bitstream and played the same scene about 4x's.

Fantastic Four (The first one) is the only one I believe that some users are reporting that they did NOT get the pop. This must mean there were differences within the batches of the Fantastic Four (the first one) movies released for sale.
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post #274 of 2238 Old 03-21-2008, 05:46 PM
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I got the first FF and tester it at 4.22.

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post #275 of 2238 Old 03-21-2008, 05:58 PM
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Originally Posted by jsil View Post

I got the first FF and tester it at 4.22.

If you really want to test your equipment go and get "The Fly" as every single user has had the POP with that movie unless they have a Denon or Marantz receiver. Also make sure the display on the receiver says "DTS HD MSTR" which will confirm that the receiver is getting the DTS HD MA track via bitstream.
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post #276 of 2238 Old 03-21-2008, 06:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Midwest User1 View Post

If you really want to test your equipment go and get "The Fly" as every single user has had the POP with that movie unless they have a Denon or Marantz receiver. Also make sure the display on the receiver says "DTS HD MSTR" which will confirm that the receiver is getting the DTS HD MA track via bitstream.

what time stamp does the pop occur in The Fly? Or does it happen thru out the movie?

"It's time to nut up or shut up."
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post #277 of 2238 Old 03-21-2008, 06:29 PM
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Originally Posted by den110 View Post

what time stamp does the pop occur in The Fly? Or does it happen thru out the movie?

I never documented the exact time stamp but it is Chapter 5 at this spot

"At the beginning of the movie when Jeff Goldblum goes to the magazines office, the main editor greets him and then walks out of his office door leaving Jeff Goldblum and Gina Davis in the office. Right when the door closes the audio goes ballastic."
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post #278 of 2238 Old 03-21-2008, 06:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jsmiddleton4 View Post

DTS has a made a fix/update to their Encoding software which will address the problem by taking the faulty DTS Decoder Chip into consideration, thus avoiding the issue on future Blu-Ray releases. It is however unknown at this time, if the Recievers with the faulty DTS Decoder chips can be fixed to work with the current DTS-MA discs by firmware update."

This sounds like they're saying "it's not our fault but we're fixing it anyway." I wouldn't take that entirely at face value.

Jack

BD30 > SR-705 (haven't played any of the suspect movies)
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post #279 of 2238 Old 03-21-2008, 06:38 PM
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Originally Posted by jsmiddleton4 View Post

I'm speculating from the German article but it appears DTS had some changes implemented across the board, players and disk encoding. So if you get a later batch, may not have the symptom.

Clearly something is not right. How far the thing goes, or how deep, what all is impacted, what will be necessary to address it, still anyone's guess. My problem is the way the article is worded the firmware "fix" is not a fix but eliminates the issue of the defective/impaired chip. Not exactly what I paid for regarding the 1800. I didn't pay the extra cost for the 1800 to have a chip with known problems.

Makes one wonder about this whole hd market.

Here's what I mean:

"DTS Global Product manager Ronny Katz confirms that the problem is caused by a faulty DTS Decoder Chip (IC) in the Receivers of the companies of Onkyo and Yamaha. Recievers from Denon, Pioneer and Sony, which uses a different DTS Decoder Chip are unaffected and has no difficulties bit-streaming the DTS-HD MA tracks from the titles concerned. DTS has a made a fix/update to their Encoding software which will address the problem by taking the faulty DTS Decoder Chip into consideration, thus avoiding the issue on future Blu-Ray releases. It is however unknown at this time, if the Recievers with the faulty DTS Decoder chips can be fixed to work with the current DTS-MA discs by firmware update."

What's interesting is when I was still waiting for my 9.8 to come in, back in October 2007, I was following the Integra 9.8 thread daily. It was rumored back then that some of the early Integra 9.8's/Onkyo's had faulty HDMI receiver chips that were not properly decoding DTS HD MA. However there were not any players on the market yet that could actually bitstream the DTS HD MA track to the receiver until the Pioneer BDP-95FD came out. The fly happened to be the only movie I had of the list that has been compiled on this thread therefore I had not experienced it. Now it seems many users are experiencing it and the list of movies is slowing growing.

The makers of the affetced receivers will have to bring a fix (not a bandaid) to all existing users or they will experience the dealth of that platform as bad news travels very fast.
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post #280 of 2238 Old 03-21-2008, 06:39 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Midwest User1 View Post

If you really want to test your equipment go and get "The Fly" as every single user has had the POP with that movie unless they have a Denon or Marantz receiver. Also make sure the display on the receiver says "DTS HD MSTR" which will confirm that the receiver is getting the DTS HD MA track via bitstream.

How do we know every Fly is affected?
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post #281 of 2238 Old 03-21-2008, 06:42 PM
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I will try the FLY and see what happens. When I tested FF it did show DTS HD MSTR on the display. I will be on vacation when I get back I'll do the test.

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post #282 of 2238 Old 03-21-2008, 06:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shamus View Post

How do we know every Fly is affected?

Just going by the fact that every user that has posted with the Fly movie and tested it with a NON Denon or Marantz has heard the POP. It just seems like all of the versions of the Fly thus far have this anomoly on the disk.
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post #283 of 2238 Old 03-21-2008, 06:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NMJack View Post

This sounds like they're saying "it's not our fault but we're fixing it anyway." I wouldn't take that entirely at face value.

Jack

BD30 > SR-705 (haven't played any of the suspect movies)

It does make some sense though because in the test I conducted with my dealer alone a Marantz SR8002 did NOT have the Pop with the Fly movie. Again in the test everything identical was used other than the receiver being switched. Two Integra units had the pop and the Marantz did NOT.

I guess it's possible that the DTS HD MA code had some "anomoly's" and they tried to get the HDMI chip makers to make changes to account for it.
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post #284 of 2238 Old 03-21-2008, 07:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jsmiddleton4 View Post

The way the article reads is disk pressed after the defective chipset was discovered don't demonstrate the problem. This is probably why some disk don't demonstrate it, some still do. And there is no promise that older disk even with a firmware update will work correctly.

We still seem to end up at Yamaha/Onkyo/Pioneer/anyone with the defective-impaired chipset need to replace the hardware in the receivers.

I am just not going to sit here and play back a disk with dts hd ma everytime wondering if my tweeter cones are going to fly past my head. Totally unacceptable.

However I want to be 100 percent sure the Denon's don't do this. I've already talked to the salesman I work with on a regular basis and I can take The Fly in tomorrow and run it through a BD30 and a Denon 3808. They already have that combo setup.

IF this is a receiver issue as far as I'm concerned I expect Yamaha to fix the hardware, not patch the issue with a firmware work around.

Not for what I paid for the 1800......

I believe Shamus did that exact scenario already with the Fly and had NO pop. I think he has the BD30 and that Denon model but hey it doesn't hurt for you to comfirm yet another Denon/Marantz model that does not exhibit the POP.
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post #285 of 2238 Old 03-21-2008, 07:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jsmiddleton4 View Post

The way the article reads is disk pressed after the defective chipset was discovered don't demonstrate the problem. This is probably why some disk don't demonstrate it, some still do. And there is no promise that older disk even with a firmware update will work correctly.

We still seem to end up at Yamaha/Onkyo/Pioneer/anyone with the defective-impaired chipset need to replace the hardware in the receivers.

I am just not going to sit here and play back a disk with dts hd ma everytime wondering if my tweeter cones are going to fly past my head. Totally unacceptable.

However I want to be 100 percent sure the Denon's don't do this. I've already talked to the salesman I work with on a regular basis and I can take The Fly in tomorrow and run it through a BD30 and a Denon 3808. They already have that combo setup.

IF this is a receiver issue as far as I'm concerned I expect Yamaha to fix the hardware, not patch the issue with a firmware work around.

Not for what I paid for the 1800......

Also why are you hogging all of the nice weather down there? We just got blasted with 10-12 inches of snow today in the Milwaukee, WI. area
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post #286 of 2238 Old 03-21-2008, 07:27 PM
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Hey Everyone

Does anyone know where to get a Yamaha 3800 firmware fix?

I tried the link earlier in the thread but it seems to go to the bike department.

On the german site all I can find is manuals. (i'd post the link but it wont let me till i have other posts here!)

And unless i'm missing something its not there, and there is even less on the Australian (my home) site.

So has anyone found or tried a firmware update on the 3800?
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post #287 of 2238 Old 03-21-2008, 07:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jsmiddleton4 View Post

The problem will be what to do with the 1800. Will wait for a fix to be determined, fix it, then sell it. Quite the pain......

I would like to hear from Yamaha before I lay out the money for a new avr though.

On my side I can't already aford a new A/V receiver, I just bought mine 4 months ago and it's the compagnies (Yamaha, DTS) problem!

I will go with a firmware update as long as it correct the problem and that I will not blow my speakers on new DTS-HD MA releases.
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post #288 of 2238 Old 03-21-2008, 07:51 PM
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Use LPCM instead of bitstream..

There are more than a handful of [op amps] that sound so good that most designers want to be using them as opposed to discreet transistors. Dave Reich, Theta 2009
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post #289 of 2238 Old 03-21-2008, 08:57 PM
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Originally Posted by thebland View Post

Use LPCM instead of bitstream..

On analog or HDMI?
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post #290 of 2238 Old 03-21-2008, 10:41 PM
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Wow. A receiver problem Hopefully Onkyo & Yamaha come up with a firmware fix quick smart for their customers. If it is a hardware fix what pain it would be for everyone to return their units to service center


Quote:
DTS Global Product manager Ronny Katz confirms that the problem is caused by a faulty DTS Decoder Chip (IC) in the Receivers of the companies of Onkyo and Yamaha. Recievers from Denon, Pioneer and Sony, which uses a different DTS Decoder Chip are unaffected and has no difficulties bit-streaming the DTS-HD MA tracks from the titles concerned. DTS has a made a fix/update to their Encoding software which will address the problem by taking the faulty DTS Decoder Chip into consideration, thus avoiding the issue on future Blu-Ray releases. It is however unknown at this time, if the Recievers with the faulty DTS Decoder chips can be fixed to work with the current DTS-MA discs by firmware update.

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post #291 of 2238 Old 03-22-2008, 01:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spizz View Post

Wow. A receiver problem Hopefully Onkyo & Yamaha come up with a firmware fix quick smart for their customers. If it is a hardware fix what pain it would be for everyone to return their units to service center

The Fix for Yamaha 1800 & 3800 is allready out in Germany. You have to contact them through their web page and they will send you the update file.

http://www.yamaha-service.de/index.p...od=1415&lang=g

Installation for 1800 ist with optical out from a CD or DVD Player with a burned CD .

Installation for 3800 is easy with a USB stick.

HD-EP35 & PS3 & (soon to be) Regionfree Oppo BD-93. 148 : 481
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post #292 of 2238 Old 03-22-2008, 02:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kinglerxt View Post

Just read this:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...0#post13436800


Possibly ANOTHER movie to add to the list
Defintely points to being not a movie issue but the chip/decoder issue

That's not a Yuma issue, I get that noise randomly too, while the HDMI handshake occurs.[BD30, Integra 9.8] One thing to do when you load a disc into any player is to turn the master volume down until you get a solid HDMI handshake. I've been doing this from day one, saved me from these random noises quiet often.

The Hun
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post #293 of 2238 Old 03-22-2008, 03:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jsmiddleton4 View Post

Clearly something is not right. How far the thing goes, or how deep, what all is impacted, what will be necessary to address it, still anyone's guess. My problem is the way the article is worded the firmware "fix" is not a fix but eliminates the issue of the defective/impaired chip. Not exactly what I paid for regarding the 1800. I didn't pay the extra cost for the 1800 to have a chip with known problems.

Makes one wonder about this whole hd market.

Since you are quoting my paraphrasing/translation I feel I should clarify the software/firmware issues discussed in the article. DTS has made changes to their Encoding Software Suite, thus avoiding the problem on future authored discs. This is as you claim, not a fix, but a workaround, i.e the problematic current discs as "The Fly" will still cause problems on the Onkyo/Yamaha recievers. Now, the Firmware fix that Yahama has released to it's customers should in theory fix the problem/erronous code in their hardware, thus eradicating the problem alltogether ensuring that all current and future discs will be handled properly. At least we should stay positive and assume it does until we hear otherwise. (worst case scenario would be that the firmware is just a smokescreen created by Yamaha and the eprom code in the decoder chips cannot be changed by conventional fw flashing means, thusly the decoder chips must be replaced physically on all the recievers affected. but that would just be pure speculation at this point So let's not... yet... )
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post #294 of 2238 Old 03-22-2008, 03:32 AM
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well, I'm willing to share the firmware I got to someone with a European RX-V3800 and that has this problem and test it.
But I dont want responsabily if it will mess your receiver.

Because I can't try the firmware till I don't have the BD30

Can someone test the DTS HD Track on Master and Commander
There should be that noise at 17:24 min
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post #295 of 2238 Old 03-22-2008, 07:04 AM
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Hi - Just tested it this morning with the Onkyo 705 and LG BH200 player - The Fly gives the "pop" sound consistently in one spot (i.e. skipping back and re-watching the same spot several times). With Fantastic Four, it did it once, but I could not get it do pop again even after skipping/rewinding backward.......by the way, the BH200 was updated with the "latest" March firmware.
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post #296 of 2238 Old 03-22-2008, 07:05 AM
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A-35 with firmware 1.4 and Onkyo 805 very loud pop random with Eagles Farewell tour using HBR audio via bitstream. Also had this happen with DTS track on Sky Captain WOT. After this I disable bitstream and use PCM with the A-35 to be safe. As far as speaker damage, none that I know of, but it sure made me jump, it's one heck of a POP!

Bill
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post #297 of 2238 Old 03-22-2008, 07:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kinglerxt View Post

I just sent off an email to Onkyo with my specific details of hardware, timestamps, etc

I also embedded the links to the info we posted here with the testing done by Mr. Hankey

I also mentioned that they have already been informed of this issue by others here and dropped the Onkyo rep's name mentioned in the email posted here from them

We will see what they send back to me

I included my full contact info for them to reach me

Stay tuned

The testing was done by myself "Midwest User1". Mr. Hanky listed his theory of what might be the root cause.
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post #298 of 2238 Old 03-22-2008, 08:00 AM
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I thought I'd start a little fun thread to gets some smiles and reduce the stress us early adopters incur.

YOUR'RE AN EALRY ADOPTER IF:

1) You've asked weekly or daily when are they going to get more units in?

2) What is the full list of features on this thing?

3) You've called/emailed more than 3 places to aquire such device

4) You spend much of your free time in these forums

5) You're stress level is higher after purchases of new gear.

6) You've spent just as much time trouble shooting as you have using the product

7) You're constantly viewing variuous threads for the next best thing/feature/capability

8) You contemplated returning the device for something better within 6 months of your purchase (due to hot wallet sindrome or upgradeiteous)

9) You're the first poster of owning the product

10) You're posting in a thread about problems you've discovered which also leads to, YES, more trouble shooting

11) You've either created or read in a thread of a product that is not even released yet


Please feel free to add to this list if you'd like to have some fun with it!!!!!
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post #299 of 2238 Old 03-22-2008, 08:46 AM
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I had the same issue with Flight of the Phoenix (don't remember time stamp). Running a Panny BD-30 to an Onkyo 705. I'll be installing my new Pioneer Elite 91 this weekend and see if I have the same problem. Regardless of how low the volume is set, it still sounds like a gunshot at max volume.
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post #300 of 2238 Old 03-22-2008, 09:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by billymerritt View Post

A-35 with firmware 1.4 and Onkyo 805 very loud pop random with Eagles Farewell tour using HBR audio via bitstream. Also had this happen with DTS track on Sky Captain WOT. After this I disable bitstream and use PCM with the A-35 to be safe. As far as speaker damage, none that I know of, but it sure made me jump, it's one heck of a POP!


I have the Eagles HD DVD disc and use DTS HD MA bitstream (XA2 to Integra 9.8). There is one spot (track 3 or 4) where there is a very loud pop. It definitely isn't random for me. You can't hear it on the DTS core track.
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