**WARNING** DTS Masters bitstreamed to Yamaha, Onkyo or Integra can damage speakers!! - Page 16 - AVS Forum
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post #451 of 2238 Old 03-24-2008, 12:55 PM
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I sent off an e-mail to Onkyo with a link to this thread (since there's too much stuff in here to distill) last week......not a peep. Even from their automated "we'll try to answer you in 24-48 hrs" response. Unless it's not automated and we're led to believe that it is
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post #452 of 2238 Old 03-24-2008, 01:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mpsan View Post

Yup...but I'd rather have a Pre/Pro. I am not going to spend $7K on a Denon either, etc, but had hoped that when the newer Pre/Pro's come out at the $2500-$3500 range they at least would be great!

Marantz is coming out with a pre/pro AV8003 around May/June and it's MSRP'd at $2,599. There's already a thread for it right here: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...=969706&page=4
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post #453 of 2238 Old 03-24-2008, 01:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ajdornier View Post

I sent off an e-mail to Onkyo with a link to this thread (since there's too much stuff in here to distill) last week......not a peep. Even from their automated "we'll try to answer you in 24-48 hrs" response. Unless it's not automated and we're led to believe that it is

They do not have a resolution yet so they would not respond to most people anyways. It would be nice however if they'd at least acknowledge that they received it and are looking into it. My dealer contacted the Head of Onkyo tech support for North America and according to him they are looking into it.

Keep in mind if someone from the Manufacturers were to jump on this forum they know that they'd get swamped with answering inquiries which would ditract from working on an actual resolution.
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post #454 of 2238 Old 03-24-2008, 01:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shamus View Post

At this point its safe to say that any dts ma track will do this.
If it wasn't for Golden Compass we could assume that DTS did fix this issue, but apparently thats not the case.

DTS updated their encoding software. Wether the Studios uses the last version of the DTS encoding software in their Authouring process is really up to the various Authoring houses creating/encoding the Blu-Ray movies for them. DTS cannot force anyone to use their latest versions or download their latest patches, but they can surely recommend it.
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post #455 of 2238 Old 03-24-2008, 01:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mpsan View Post

Well, as I said before, perhaps it is time for me to wait for some of the new stuff out within 6 months. However, how do I know that a new Pre/Pro like the Cary 11a will not come out with a bad chip?

Unless this does turn out to be a bad chip issue involving the lower-end lossless receivers (Onkyo, Yamaha, etc.) and they admit to it, you might not know and it might not ever get fixed. For example the Onkyo 605 is one of the biggest selling receivers right now because of it's price point. This forum only represents a very small fraction of the owners, and not even everyone here has experienced the issue...yet. I sincerely hope it isn't a hardware issue, and that if it is ALL future discs will be encoded around it. Unless conclusive evidence comes out that there is a problem, and the manufacturer works it out with the chipmaker, possibly nothing will happen. Look at Samsung and their BD-UP5000. It is suspiscious that the player came out before Christmas advertising DTSHD/MA and TrueHD playback. They have advertised a May firmware update that those owners are hoping will fix that issue...but even that is a little suspiscious why it is taking so long. It might not be possible.
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post #456 of 2238 Old 03-24-2008, 01:38 PM
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This is why I alluded to earlier, that it is really DTS's neck that is out on this (despite there potentially being multiple contributors to the problem), if any customer gets left w/o remediation. Leaving such an issue unaddressed simply encourages people to avoid DTS soundtracks and equipment, if they don't wish to bother with the risk any further. If Onkyo/Yamaha doesn't do anything, they will go on selling new/different receivers in the future w or w/o DTS, and there will still be people to buy them. If people give up on trying out DTS soundtracks (for fear of encountering a bitstream bomb) and buying DTS equipment (for fear of getting the "bad" model), that is a sure way to bang the final nails in their coffin, imo.

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post #457 of 2238 Old 03-24-2008, 01:40 PM
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Has anyone tried the european firmware fix on their american model to see if it worked?
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post #458 of 2238 Old 03-24-2008, 01:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Midwest User1 View Post

Marantz is coming out with a pre/pro AV8003 around May/June and it's MSRP'd at $2,599. There's already a thread for it right here: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...=969706&page=4


I will look. Wasn't there some talk that Marantz was just the same as Denon now?
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post #459 of 2238 Old 03-24-2008, 01:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kishiro View Post

DTS updated their encoding software. Wether the Studios uses the last version of the DTS encoding software in their Authouring process is really up to the various Authoring houses creating/encoding the Blu-Ray movies for them. DTS cannot force anyone to use their latest versions or download their latest patches, but they can surely recommend it.

DTS and the studios have a vested interest in solving this issue even if not at fault. There a BUNCH of HT systems out there affected by this. Until I know this issue is not going to happen again, it will impact my buying choices. Sure, there are titles that I will buy anyway (and use an alternative audio track), but I buy a couple of "blind" discs a month, none of those will be DTS-HD MA until they get to the bottom of this.

Again, if DTS could just post a list of good and (possibly) bad titles it would go a long way to ease my mind.
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post #460 of 2238 Old 03-24-2008, 01:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by un4gvn94538 View Post

i just want some clarification. i have a 705 and a ps3. but i planned on getting a stand alone for bit streaming. is this an issue with ALL receviers of the same line or just some? like a bad batch of chips?


my 705 is 3 weeks old now, and I have the PS3 (which I do not get the DTS MA) also have the XA2 which does exhibit the popping noise on DTS MA discs passed thru bitstream to the Onk 705

Not all brand AV recievers are haveing issues, from my understanding, the Dennon and Pioneers are not haveing issues
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post #461 of 2238 Old 03-24-2008, 01:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mpsan View Post

I will look. Wasn't there some talk that Marantz was just the same as Denon now?

Do you mean Denon? Marantz and Denon are owned by the same outfit "D&M Holdings" so there units are probably similar however Marantz is considered the higher end of the two company's.

I had asked my dealer why he only carries the Marantz model and not the Denon and they stated that in their 20+ years of experience the Marantz's only cost slightly more than the "Denon equivalent so to say" but there a better unit. Again this is there experience which is far more involved than mine.
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post #462 of 2238 Old 03-24-2008, 01:50 PM
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I called onkyo this morning.. I talked with a very nice lady.. she said that they were looking into it. they don't have a solution to the problem yet.. they are suppose to get the discs this week to test it out.

she stressed that people should call in and tell them the problem. onkyousa.com has a support page.. it has an 800 number to call.
when making the call.. press 4 and then 2. then you can talk with someone.. they will transfer you to the correct person.
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post #463 of 2238 Old 03-24-2008, 02:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Midwest User1 View Post

Do you mean Denon? Marantz and Denon are owned by the same outfit "D&M Holdings" so there units are probably similar however Marantz is considered the higher end of the two company's.

I had asked my dealer why he only carries the Marantz model and not the Denon and they stated that in their 20+ years of experience the Marantz's only cost slightly more than the "Denon equivalent so to say" but there a better unit. Again this is there experience which is far more involved than mine.

If you factor in the price of current US products alone, then Denon is usually considered the higher-end of the two companies.

Jeff Talmadge of Denon mentioned that although the two are under the same parent company, Denon and Marantz hold different audio/video philosophies. Their top-tier Blu-ray players share the same parts, but more established components, like their AVRs and DVD players, tend to use different hardware in many aspects. For instance, Denon has been partial towards Burr-Brown/TI for their audio DACs, while Marantz tends to incorporate Cirrus Logic DACs.

That said, I wouldn't be surprised if the two companies use the same decoding logic for the latest lossless audio codecs.
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post #464 of 2238 Old 03-24-2008, 02:16 PM
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Is it confirmed that the DTS-HD MA decoding in the banging receivers is actually faulty, as in "does not pass DTS certification", and that the discs were authored in a way that SHOULD HAVE worked if the AVRs had only been correctly engineered?

Or is it the disc authoring that is faulty and it just so happens that some correctly implemented DTS-HD MA decoders are less sensitive to it than other correctly implemented DTS-HD MA decoders?

If the banging receivers are doing what they are SUPPOSED to be doing -- i.e., when fed PROPERLY authored tracks -- then it is really the movie studios that carry the liability here. They'll need to recall and replace their DTS-bomb discs.

-------------------------------

The same sort of thing happened in the early days of standard DVD -- albeit more with players than with receivers. Some players proved to be faulty and got fixes or were withdrawn from the market. Some discs proved to be improperly/strangely authored and were recalled/replaced by the studios. And some discs which were improperly/strangely authored failed on only a handful of players (due to the vagaries of DVD player design) and those players got fixes to work around those discs even though it was really the disc that was at fault.

At the time, there was a whole web site devoted to the cross-matrix of discs and players with notes on the status of getting a fix from somebody -- anybody.

The "improperly/strangely" words above are due to the fact that the rules for CORRECT authoring of standard DVDs were never all that tight to begin with. Which meant the DE FACTO results as produced by the most popular authoring tools eventually became the thing that ACTUALLY defined the "standard". So before that happened, some discs failed simply because the studios started to try to take advantage of the various DVD authoring features that had not been widely exploited -- only to discover that players couldn't actually play that stuff.

Remind anyone of anything? I think we can expect some of the same as studios start experimenting more with the "features" of Blu-Ray -- particularly in Profile 2.0.
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post #465 of 2238 Old 03-24-2008, 02:33 PM
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I cant as I bought my Onkyo receiver from Amazon and I got my BluRay player for free as part of my Panasonic Plasma TV deal at Ken Crane's.
Ken Cranes dont sell Onlyo's (they only do Pioneer AVRs I think) but do sell the BD30 player but that still doesnt help

Quote:
Originally Posted by Midwest User1 View Post

I think the fastest way to make a quick impact is if someone is willing to take the time, and you purchased your receiver from a larger outfit, take your Blu-Ray or HD DVD player, the offending movie, and your receiver into the store. Have them hook it up to their speakers and let them listen to it. Once the store Manager hears it they'll be on the horn to the manufacturer as those calls seem to get attention quicker than the calls from the end users like us. (Make sure the store is really crowded to so all of those customers get the luxury of experiencing the Bitstream Bomb).

It still doesn't hurt to call/email them directly as the more the marrier


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post #466 of 2238 Old 03-24-2008, 02:36 PM
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I just got my UK HD-DVD (DTS HD/MA) version of Rambo: First Blood last week and it too has the Bitstream Bomb at the 57:32-33 mark. In fact, I first mentioned this in the software section because I thought it may be a disc defect only to find this thread today.

Having also ordered the UK HD-DVD versions of Terminator 2 and Total Recall I was wondering if anyone has had any problems with these discs (and were the bomb may lie) before I take a chance at blowing my speakers. I have the 885/A-35 combo.

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post #467 of 2238 Old 03-24-2008, 03:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jsmiddleton4 View Post

sha....

If its less than 30 days old have you thought about taking it back?

I did think about it, but after a couple price adjustments my final price is $535.00 for the Onk 705.

What other reciver could I get for that kind of money that will have the same features?

I am currently holding on to the faith that Onkyo will provide a fix.... but I still have appx. 10 days before the 30 days are up.

Believe me, I realy am going back and forth on the topic.
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post #468 of 2238 Old 03-24-2008, 03:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Midwest User1 View Post

Do you mean Denon? Marantz and Denon are owned by the same outfit "D&M Holdings" so there units are probably similar however Marantz is considered the higher end of the two company's.

I had asked my dealer why he only carries the Marantz model and not the Denon and they stated that in their 20+ years of experience the Marantz's only cost slightly more than the "Denon equivalent so to say" but there a better unit. Again this is there experience which is far more involved than mine.

Yes, and I guess there will be a Denon/Marantz war. Some say the Denon is higher quality but their Pre/Pro is $7k!

It will be great to see how this works out when shipped. I had a marantz Amp/Preamp, and Tuner with the scope in it 40 years ago! Our son still has the Tuner!
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post #469 of 2238 Old 03-24-2008, 03:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Midwest User1 View Post

Well the good news is some of the Manufacturers must have become aware of those bad chips because Marantz, Denon, Sony, and Pioneer models have not been having this problem. So either they are just really lucky with the chips they chose or they new the chips that Onkyo & Yamaha used had issues.

It just seems awfully unlucky that Onkyo and Yamaha would be the only ones effected. Does Onkyo or Yamaha offer a blu-ray player? I don't think so.

Marantz, Denon, Sony, and Pioneer happen to all make their own Blu-ray players. I wonder if that has anything to do with it. I believe their newest 1.3a players coming to market coincide with their also offering new 1.3a recievers. Perhaps they were in a better position to avoid this issue mainly because of that -- they're running gear on both sides of the wire through QA at the same time.

Just guessing.
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post #470 of 2238 Old 03-24-2008, 04:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mommacux View Post

Unless you have some sort of special edition,that disc has 5.1 pcm uncompressed.

Well, I'll grant you that I have not actually played the disc yet for the reason I stated, but the back of my copy of The Last Waltz reads: Specifications - Audio - English - DTS HD 5.1 Master Lossless Audio. Also, the dts HD Master logo is shown beneath the credit information on the back.

Far from a SE, this dics is actually one of my 5 free BDs from my Panny BD30 purchase. FWIW, the packaging shows catalog #M100134, and the factory seal tape reads The Last Waltz #15024. Maybe it's a reissue, or maybe they simply fu'd the packaging...
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post #471 of 2238 Old 03-24-2008, 04:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Pariseau View Post

Is it confirmed that the DTS-HD MA decoding in the banging receivers is actually faulty, as in "does not pass DTS certification", and that the discs were authored in a way that SHOULD HAVE worked if the AVRs had only been correctly engineered?

Or is it the disc authoring that is faulty and it just so happens that some correctly implemented DTS-HD MA decoders are less sensitive to it than other correctly implemented DTS-HD MA decoders?

If the banging receivers are doing what they are SUPPOSED to be doing -- i.e., when fed PROPERLY authored tracks -- then it is really the movie studios that carry the liability here. They'll need to recall and replace their DTS-bomb discs.

That's a good question. Were Yamaha and Onkyo the first receivers available with DTS-HD MA decoding? Maybe DTS found a bug in the authoring code that causes the earthshattering boom and they gave the newer decoders the ability to handle it and changed the authoring software. Otherwise you'd think every DTS-HD MA track would cause problems. It's doubtful that anyone is going to tell us what anomaly causes the boom.

As for myself, I'm not going to ship my 50 pound 805 off to the service center if it needs a chip replaced. I'll just get a player that decodes internally and let the little light on my receiver stay off. What sucks is that I got rid of my older Sony ES receiver because it couldn't handle the 1.5 mbps DTS tracks and voices were garbled. I guess the warbling voices were better than a sound that will ruin my speakers.
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post #472 of 2238 Old 03-24-2008, 04:04 PM
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The real losers here would appear to be DTS who with this screwup, along with the incredible delays getting complete DTS-HD MA solutions to market in the first place, really do look like the gang who couldn't shoot straight. When reports start to roll in of speaker damage due to this (whether justified/real or not), and that hits the popular technology press, it's going to be a PR fiasco for DTS.

It will be interesting to see if Dolby Labs ends up making any substantial new inroads in Blu-Ray due to this.

And of course the remaining HD-DVD die-hards are probably pissed this didn't come out before Warner's decision...



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post #473 of 2238 Old 03-24-2008, 04:27 PM
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Do any of the past/current HD-DVD players do internal decoding for DTS-HD/MA; are there any firmware upgrades available to enable this if not? Thanks

Chris B
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post #474 of 2238 Old 03-24-2008, 04:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Pariseau View Post

The real losers here would appear to be DTS who with this screwup, along with the incredible delays getting complete DTS-HD MA solutions to market in the first place, really do look like the gang who couldn't shoot straight. When reports start to roll in of speaker damage due to this (whether justified/real or not), and that hits the popular technology press, it's going to be a PR fiasco for DTS.

It will be interesting to see if Dolby Labs ends up making any substantial new inroads in Blu-Ray due to this.

And of course the remaining HD-DVD die-hards are probably pissed this didn't come out before Warner's decision...



--Bob

dts stumbled out of the gate with DVD too. Frankly, with lossless Dolby TrueHD & PCM, I don't know why we even need a third lossless format.
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post #475 of 2238 Old 03-24-2008, 04:46 PM
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With some Onkyo users reporting this problem and others saying it does not exist...

Well I happen to know that in ~Sept 2007 there was a hardware revision for all Onkyo products and a simultaneous firmware upgrade (1.04 package). Some people got the MAIN upgrade via Onkyo, but you needed to take it into a service center for the hardware mod, DSP upgrade, and HDMI upgrade.

I am wondering if those who have no problems are those Onkyo owners who got their receivers with 1.04 on it from the factory, and all of the mods, etc, completed already?

Vote with your wallet. Don't buy Cinavia-infected Blu-ray Discs! Why pay a premium for pseudo-lossless audio damaged by an intrusive watermark in the audible spectrum?
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post #476 of 2238 Old 03-24-2008, 04:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruined View Post

With some Onkyo users reporting this problem and others saying it does not exist...

Well I happen to know that in ~Sept 2007 there was a hardware revision for all Onkyo products and a simultaneous firmware upgrade (1.04 package). Some people got the MAIN upgrade via Onkyo, but you needed to take it into a service center for the hardware mod, DSP upgrade, and HDMI upgrade.

I am wondering if those who have no problems are those Onkyo owners who got their receivers with 1.04 on it from the factory, and all of the mods, etc, completed already?

My Integra 9.8 came from the factory at 1.04 and I am having the Bitstream Bomb. Plus we tested an Integra 8.8 at my dealer on Thursday of last week that they had just received and it had the same Bitstream bomb with the same sources as my 9.8. I don't think any of the Onkyo's/Integra units are free of this issue.
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post #477 of 2238 Old 03-24-2008, 04:57 PM
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how do we find out what firmware we have? on the onkyo? I have the 605.

Jacob
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post #478 of 2238 Old 03-24-2008, 05:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruined View Post

With some Onkyo users reporting this problem and others saying it does not exist...

Well I happen to know that in ~Sept 2007 there was a hardware revision for all Onkyo products and a simultaneous firmware upgrade (1.04 package). Some people got the MAIN upgrade via Onkyo, but you needed to take it into a service center for the hardware mod, DSP upgrade, and HDMI upgrade.

I am wondering if those who have no problems are those Onkyo owners who got their receivers with 1.04 on it from the factory, and all of the mods, etc, completed already?


my 705 is 3 weeks old...have the issues
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post #479 of 2238 Old 03-24-2008, 05:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by goldear View Post

Do any of the past/current HD-DVD players do internal decoding for DTS-HD/MA; are there any firmware upgrades available to enable this if not? Thanks


not sure about the decoding, I have the XA2 which sends DTS MA bitstream and the reciever decodes it
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post #480 of 2238 Old 03-24-2008, 05:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Midwest User1 View Post

My Integra 9.8 came from the factory at 1.04 and I am having the Bitstream Bomb. Plus we tested an Integra 8.8 at my dealer on Thursday of last week that they had just received and it had the same Bitstream bomb with the same sources as my 9.8. I don't think any of the Onkyo's/Integra units are free of this issue.

In that case, Onkyo needs to release another firmware ASAP. This has gone on too long for owners of these products.

Vote with your wallet. Don't buy Cinavia-infected Blu-ray Discs! Why pay a premium for pseudo-lossless audio damaged by an intrusive watermark in the audible spectrum?
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Onkyo Tx Sr705 Receiver , Panasonic Blu Ray Disc Player Dmp Bd30k
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