**WARNING** DTS Masters bitstreamed to Yamaha, Onkyo or Integra can damage speakers!! - Page 19 - AVS Forum
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post #541 of 2238 Old 03-25-2008, 12:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ronny_k_at_DTS View Post

I cannot help you with the list but I believe the group here has come up with the few titles.

You'll note that it's an extremely rare occurrence in a few select BD discs.

BTW - in the short term, when playing one of these titles with the specific AVRs - you can switch the player to output as PCM (decode DTS internally) and you should be able to avoid it all together.


Ronny while your on that subject about having the player internally decode, can you ride Sony's ass a little to release a firmware update to allow the PS3 to finally decode DTS-MA, thanks.
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post #542 of 2238 Old 03-25-2008, 04:53 AM
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Ronny,

What brand and model is the DTS decoder on the Yamaha and Onkyo receivers?

What brand and model is the DTS decoder on, e.g., the Denon 3808?

TIA

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post #543 of 2238 Old 03-25-2008, 05:13 AM
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All receivers had and some still have problems with DTS HD.

*Denon 3808 and 4308 had problems with flagging-display, it displayed 5.1 while the movie was 7.1 with DTS HD Master
This has been fixed with a firmware.
*Yamaha has a problem like that too, it display 7.1 active speakers with 5.1 DTS HD Master.
*Loud Bang on Yamaha and Onkyo(And who know that maybe Denon had the same problem too but fixed it with a firmware)

Something did go wrong with the QC of the DTS HD software/hardware I think

And its weird that Yamaha USA is being lazy and not accepting there is a problem.
I live in Europe, and there is a firmware out for the Yamaha RX-V1800/3800 that fixes the loud bang on DTS HD Master tracks.

I can't test the firmware because I can't bitstream DTS HD yet.
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post #544 of 2238 Old 03-25-2008, 06:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jacob305 View Post

how do we find out what firmware we have? on the onkyo? I have the 605.

Jacob

While holding down the "display" button push the "standby" button and you'll see the firmware release show up in the dispay while doing this.
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post #545 of 2238 Old 03-25-2008, 06:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jacob305 View Post

I have written an e-mail to bill hunt about this matter. he runs thedigitalbits.com site.. hopefully he will post the info on his site about it.. to help consumers be able to call onkyo and other companies to report the problem.

Jacob

If Bill Hunt post any information regarding this at all that will actually help all of us as thousands of people will quickly learn about the "Bitstream Bomb". Plus one user posted that there aren't enough users that have filed a complaint of having this issue yet but those complaints will start to pile up real quick as more users purchase a player that can bitstream DTS HD MA.
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post #546 of 2238 Old 03-25-2008, 06:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kinglerxt View Post

Before they can fix it they have to replicate it in their test areas, then determine the root cause/source, then decide how many units are affected, then determine if its a firmware or hardware fix
If a firmware, then they have to allocate programmers to get working on it and then test the update and make sure it works and then post it on the website

If its hardware, they need to manufacture thousands of new chips and find a vendor that can do it for cheap and fast and then get those drawn up and PO's cut and then ordered and received and then tested and then shipped out to service centers and then installed on our units

All this takes a LOT of time and $$$

And of course dont forget they are busy on 1st priority - making money designing new and better AVRs so this is not their top priority unless it was a safety recall issue where someone could hurt/killed (i.e. fire, etc)
Right now Im sure only a small handfull (under 50) people in the whole USA have reported this
Not everyone has bitstreaming players hooked up to Hidef decoding receivers and selecting the DTSHD track when they play the disc
SDef DVDs are still the majority
I want my Onk 705 fixed just as badly as you all do but this will not happen in a weeks time or even a months time

Well the good news is we can gaurantee that they'll be able to reproduce this in their test labs. It won't be one of those "We could not replicate the sympton/problem" that we've all dreaded hearing from the mechanic or repair person. All they have to do is puchase several of the posted movie/disc offenders and play them at very LOUD volume levels I say loud as that has more effect in putting the "blown speakers" possibity front and center of their thinking.

If someone's speakers did get damaged due to this the reciever company is the one who is liable to us period!!! It would then be on the receiver company's back to go recoup funds from whoever else may be at fault for the piece part they purchased.
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post #547 of 2238 Old 03-25-2008, 06:24 AM
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Watched I, Robot last night with the DTS-MA audio track bitstreamed to my Onkyo 605 from a Panny BD30. Not a single bad noise was evident throughout the film. I have yet to experience this problem with any DTS-MA track.
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post #548 of 2238 Old 03-25-2008, 07:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jsmiddleton4 View Post

"If Bill Hunt post any information regarding this...."

That is what we need. More publicity. That is precisely the leverage that will move companies like Yamaha to act. Sad isn't it. But true.

Or if anyone has friends in the "News reporter" business have them over for a bitstream bomb surprise
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post #549 of 2238 Old 03-25-2008, 07:07 AM
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There's two questions that ultimately add to the "We can't be certain what is actually causing this" feeling:

1) Why are there DTS HD MA titles that DO NOT exhibit the "Bitstream Bomb" for anyone?

2) Why are some receivers capable of playing the "Offending bitstream bomb" movies and not exhibiting the anamoloy? I.e. Denons, Marantz, Pioneer, Sony etc.

Those two questions indicate that the root cause may be a combination of certain disk played on certain HDMI chipsets.
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post #550 of 2238 Old 03-25-2008, 07:24 AM
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I actually linked my Integra dealer to this and he forwarded it on to Integra. So we're definately pushing.
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post #551 of 2238 Old 03-25-2008, 07:32 AM
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Any chance the very first yamaha 1800 releases don't have it? I bought mine in september. Guess I need to order The Fly to test it. Using headphones of course.
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post #552 of 2238 Old 03-25-2008, 07:33 AM
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I sent this today via email and snail mail to Onkyo support:
Dear Sir or Madam,

First of all, thank you for your great product. I am very proud of my decision to purchase an Onkyo A/V receiver and Onkyo speakers.

However, I do have a concern. I enjoy a great number of blu-ray discs featuring DTS HD MA audio, and I am writing because of concern about the performance of my tx-sr 705 A/V receiver.

As you may be aware, there are issues with these receivers' ability to decode DTS HD MA when bitstreamed to the receiver. Specifically, there are problems with some titles in that a VERY LOUD BOOM occurs at a specific time stamp in the movie. I have experienced this when viewing "Fly Boys" and it is my opinion that the boom is certainly capable of damaging the receiver and/or speakers. In fact, I will not view any blu-ray disc using DTS-HD MA until there is clarity with this issue.

This issue is discussed extensively on the AVS forum. (See this link: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...1#post13460565) . You should be able to gather some sense of the issue by reading through some of those posts. It even includes comments from a representative of DTS.

Thank you for your time,
In addition I did a little Googling and found out the name of the president of Onkyo USA. His name is Ken Araki. If Onkyo USA uses any sort of standardized email address convention, (I guessed his email address) he will be getting the email directly.
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post #553 of 2238 Old 03-25-2008, 07:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jsmiddleton4 View Post

I'm excited for you Onkyo/Integra guys. And hopefully if they get going, that movement will help me get Yamaha going. I still don't understand this being a known issue in the European market and then companies acting "surprised" when it shows up in the U.S. market.

How refreshing it would have been if they had taking the lead and based on what they found out in Europe, checked their other stock to see if the problem existed. Gotta wonder if they already did.

One thing to take into account is usually companies are not quick to discuss any problems publicly and this is especially more true if they have not found a resolution yet. It's the old "why on gods green earth would we state their is a problem with our product if we don't know that with absolute certainty". What you need is more of the Yamaha dealers contacting Yamaha Tech support to report that this is a real issue and it's not being made up or caused by user error.
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post #554 of 2238 Old 03-25-2008, 08:05 AM
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When using headphone you will hear the bang only in headphone?
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post #555 of 2238 Old 03-25-2008, 08:15 AM
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I ordered the Fly. Will test with my 1800, and if the problem occurs will talk with Yamaha.
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post #556 of 2238 Old 03-25-2008, 08:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jsmiddleton4 View Post

Yamaha is insisting I take my receiver in to "confirm" the issue. So much for quality customer service.

They flat out refused to do a test setup in their own customer service area and see for themselves. IF I want any chance of getting this resolved I HAVE to send my unit in to Los Angeles service center. Since there is little to no chance they'll have The Fly, I am sending it with the receiver.

This is NOT ok. It is however my ONLY choice.

So off it goes. They are reimbursing the shipping cost however.

Sucks.

Do you have the ability to take it to the dealer you bought it from with your Blu-ray player, The Fly and any other offending disk? That way once you can convince them that something is wrong maybe they'll hound Tech support without you having to depart with your receiver.
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post #557 of 2238 Old 03-25-2008, 08:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jsmiddleton4 View Post

Yamaha is insisting I take my receiver in to "confirm" the issue. So much for quality customer service.

They flat out refused to do a test setup in their own customer service area and see for themselves. IF I want any chance of getting this resolved I HAVE to send my unit in to Los Angeles service center. Since there is little to no chance they'll have The Fly, I am sending it with the receiver.

This is NOT ok. It is however my ONLY choice.

So off it goes. They are reimbursing the shipping cost however.

Sucks.

That does suck. Too bad they are not being pro-active about the matter - it may come back to haunt them.

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post #558 of 2238 Old 03-25-2008, 08:43 AM
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Well hopefully users will read this and see the process that they will have to go through if they have a problem with any of their products. Make sure they have exact instructions of what to test with so that they don't try and come back with "Not able to duplicate the problem" which makes anyone even more Irate.
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post #559 of 2238 Old 03-25-2008, 08:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jsmiddleton4 View Post

Mr. Hank....

You are being awfully hard on DTS. We want to get this thing fixed. Hardly going to happen if folks are telling DTS that they should go away or are irrelevant.

The best chance we have of getting this thing addressed now and for the future is if all players at the table act as allies for the benefit of consumers. I don't get any warm and fuzzies from what you are saying toward DTS at all. Pretty harsh.

I completely agree, that all parties involved should be working together. If DTS does not care to be an involved party, THEN I suggest that maybe going away is more fitting. Do you see what I am saying? Somewhere along the line, the high standards of audio quality of DTS did not make it to the end user. If it were my name on the product, I would be all over the situation to find out exactly what happened and how to avoid that situation in the future. If it is true that they have no control over or clue about how their audio spec gets implemented on actual hardware, that is a deeply disconcerting, imo.

The reasoning behind the angle I am taking is specifically because it looks like they could take the "back door out" and wash their hands of it, entirely. I'm simply advising that people should still keep the pressure on, so that they do not adopt that course of action. Maybe it is just me, but it just feels like they shouldn't be allowed to "skate" just because they don't manufacture hardware directly. At the very least, they should be just a bit concerned that their spec gets implemented appropriately, and when it appears not to be, they should feel some motivation to ensure things get worked out for the better.

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post #560 of 2238 Old 03-25-2008, 09:03 AM
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FYI, just to let you know, just got an email back from the person I contacted at the mfg of the Chronos disc (RB Films) and he did work hard to bring this issue to the attention of DTS and even spoke to the President personally so that really helped get this higher priority and spotlight to get a faster resolution.

Please be assured DTS is working on this with others even if they arent saying anything right now

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post #561 of 2238 Old 03-25-2008, 09:21 AM
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Can someone start a new thread to list and track of DTS-MA movies that exhibit the issue (or post a link if there already is one)? That way people can check without looking through all these posts and can set their player to PCM and prevent damage until a fix is found for those specific movies. The list can also contain "safe" movies that people can use and not have to PCM. Also, luckily for me, if a fix by Onkyo is required, the service center here that is working on my Sony A3000 also just said they are a authorized Onkyo service outlet, so I wouldn't have to ship my unit to the end of the Earth and back.
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post #562 of 2238 Old 03-25-2008, 09:26 AM
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JS, did you talked to someone from Yamaha or just a authorized repairshop of Yamaha.

Because I had the same problem here in Belgium. Contact page was on Yamaha page but they were just a authorized repair shop of Yamaha.
And they told me the same thing, "send your receiver here, and we will look whats wrong, and update it with a firmware to fix the microprocessor??!"

While In Germany, I just sended an email to them, and i got an email from Yamaha-Germany the same day and game me a pdf with instruction how to and the firmware itself. Top service!
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post #563 of 2238 Old 03-25-2008, 10:39 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mikeynavy1 View Post

Can someone start a new thread to list and track of DTS-MA movies that exhibit the issue (or post a link if there already is one)? That way people can check without looking through all these posts and can set their player to PCM and prevent damage until a fix is found for those specific movies. The list can also contain "safe" movies that people can use and not have to PCM. Also, luckily for me, if a fix by Onkyo is required, the service center here that is working on my Sony A3000 also just said they are a authorized Onkyo service outlet, so I wouldn't have to ship my unit to the end of the Earth and back.

At this point, I wouldn't listen to any DTS ma tracks until this is resolved.
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post #564 of 2238 Old 03-25-2008, 10:44 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jsmiddleton4 View Post

I spoke directly to Yamaha and up the chain to second level tech support/csr type.

They flat out refused to do internal testing. I can't explain it. All I know is that IF I want this matter looked into, Yamaha is making me send the unit in. That is the only option they presented me. Or ignoring it and not addressing it. I HAVE to send it in according the Yamaha csr.

I don't like it. Totally destroys my opinion of U.S. Yamaha customer support. They didn't seem to care about that either. This is the way Yamaha does it. I can choose to follow their rules in hopes it gets addressed or I can live with it.

I will do what they are making me do. I do not want to sit here wondering if the next dts hd ma sound track I listen to is going to blow up my speakers.

I'd even send them my copy of The Fly for their own internal testing if they would have considered it.

Will be hard pressed to buy or recommend Yamaha again however.


I wouldn't send it in.

As Ronny has said, he knows what the problem is, and chances are, so does Yamaha. I just don't think a second level tech would know and he's just following protocol.

Once it starts hitting more internet sites, they won't be able to hide it and will than release some kind of statement.
Your receiver will just be sitting around in limbo...
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post #565 of 2238 Old 03-25-2008, 10:47 AM
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Just received The Fly and can confirm the loud SINGLE pop occurs when bitstreaming DTS MA from a Samsung BDP1400 to an Onkyo 805. This is the only disc that I have that's on the list but I have other DTS MA discs that bitstream without issue.
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post #566 of 2238 Old 03-25-2008, 10:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jsmiddleton4 View Post

Heading for UPS.....

Maybe they will replace the chip and send it back to you.
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post #567 of 2238 Old 03-25-2008, 11:01 AM
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Originally Posted by mjmbond View Post

You must have balls the size of cantaloupes I listen at very loud levels and am scared to death I'm going to end up with a driver flying at my head if the "bomb" hits my system...

Actually the reason I watched it is the more movie titles we discover the better off because the more volume there is of culprits the more likely the parties to blame will be forced to deal with it. Plus the more movie titles that are discovered the more this will scare users into NOT watching/purchasing DTS HD MA titles and from wanting the recievers with the audio anomoly. Thus leading to more and more reports to the manufacturers, hence we have a fix at some point. We have to keep the pressure on up until they release a fix!!!!
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post #568 of 2238 Old 03-25-2008, 11:18 AM
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I am more worried about latent/residual damage to the speakers/tweeters where there is slight damage but they still work but are degraded slightly and over time will produce lesser quality sound

If they are blown its obvious and a claim could be made against the mfg but if there is residual damage to a lesser extent it cant be known and cant be proven

Quote:
Originally Posted by Midwest User1 View Post

If someone's speakers did get damaged due to this the reciever company is the one who is liable to us period!!! It would then be on the receiver company's back to go recoup funds from whoever else may be at fault for the piece part they purchased.


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post #569 of 2238 Old 03-25-2008, 11:19 AM
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Originally Posted by Mr. Hanky View Post

. . . At the very least, they should be just a bit concerned that their spec gets implemented appropriately, and when it appears not to be, they should feel some motivation to ensure things get worked out for the better.

I would speculate that they are concerned. But, what leverage do they have really?

Forgive my long-winded analogy, but consider this:

I work in the media industry, specifically the advertising business. So, imagine that Joe Retailer wants to advertise a big blu-ray disc sale and orders an advertisement in a variety of our mediums:

"This week only, all blu-ray discs: $14.99."

So, the ad comes out:

"This week only, all blu-ray discs: $4.99".

This sort of thing happens all the time, and depending on the advertiser, there are any number of places this blunder could have occurred. His original copy, creative, production, who knows. But, the ad is out for the public to consume, and it is the absolute discretion of Joe Retailer to decide how to deal with the public.

If it is our blunder, we have to make good, but we make good to Joe Retailer, not the public.

We get calls almost everyday from the public complaining about how they were treated by an advertiser, claims of false advertising, etc. We have no recourse to offer. If an advertiser is highly suspect, we have the option of discontinuing to offer our services. But, it should be obvious that the advertiser's total spend with us impacts that decision.


DTS is not going to hang Onkyo and Yamaha out to dry on this one. They are worth too much money. I expect that they will work closely with them to solve the issue. Didn't Mr. Kratz state in one of his post to this thread that they know what is going on? But, Onkyo and Yamaha are in the driver's seat, and Onkyo and Yamaha will decide what is communicated and when along with what course of action is taken.
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post #570 of 2238 Old 03-25-2008, 11:30 AM
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Does anybody have specific info about where on the Blu-Ray Close Encounters disc this anomoly happens?

I watched the entire original theatrical version last night in DTS-HD MA and no pop. (Denon 2500 via Monoprice HDMI 1.3a cable to Integra 9.8)

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