**WARNING** DTS Masters bitstreamed to Yamaha, Onkyo or Integra can damage speakers!! - Page 22 - AVS Forum
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post #631 of 2238 Old 03-25-2008, 11:13 PM
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shamus
can you find the post and put it in the 1st post that shows all the combinations of player/receiver that had this issue
I think it was by js? just recently in the past week or so in a summary?
cant remember

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post #632 of 2238 Old 03-26-2008, 01:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by goldear View Post

I just got my UK HD-DVD (DTS HD/MA) version of Rambo: First Blood last week and it too has the Bitstream Bomb at the 57:32-33 mark. In fact, I first mentioned this in the software section because I thought it may be a disc defect only to find this thread today.

Having also ordered the UK HD-DVD versions of Terminator 2 and Total Recall I was wondering if anyone has had any problems with these discs (and were the bomb may lie) before I take a chance at blowing my speakers. I have the 885/A-35 combo.


Same problem here.

Onkyo 705
Toshiba HD EX1

Rambo 2 and 3 worked fine. No Bombs.
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post #633 of 2238 Old 03-26-2008, 03:47 AM
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Originally Posted by ddgtr View Post

Damn it, it sounded like a 40 caliber Glock!!!

Holy s**t! It does! I should know because I carry a 40 caliber Glock at work!

"It's time to nut up or shut up."
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post #634 of 2238 Old 03-26-2008, 06:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kinglerxt View Post

ANother one to update the 1st post with:
Flight of the Phoenix - 51:xx


"I was able to confirm a loud "pop" with Flight of the Phoenix at 51 minutes into the movie. I have a Panny BD30 and Integra DTC-9.8."

Posted on bluray.com site by coolmilo:
http://forum.blu-ray.com/showpost.ph...06&postcount=4
in this thread:
http://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread.php?t=43286

I have been using DTS MA bitstream in combination with several Blu Ray disks, and have NOT experienced this issue. However, none of the referenced titles is in my library, until now, as I see that Flight Of The Phoenix is now a suspect, at the 51 min. mark. I just got that one as a freebie, so I'll give it a try, AT LOW VOLUME. It's a $1,500 repair if you blow the 802D tweeters.

Onkyo 805 as pre/pro
Krell Amplifiers
B&W 802 Diamond L/R front
B&W HTM center
Kef107 rear surrounds
Velodyne Digital Drive subs(2)
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post #635 of 2238 Old 03-26-2008, 06:28 AM
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^ Low volume doesn't seem to matter. SNAP still comes through extremely LOUD. Don't take a chance w/your $1,500. tweeters! Test w/ an old set of speakers you have lying around ...or borrow a friends set of speakers
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post #636 of 2238 Old 03-26-2008, 06:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Ballentine View Post

^ Low volume doesn't seem to matter. SNAP still comes through extremely LOUD. Don't take a chance w/your $1,500. tweeters! Test w/ an old set of speakers you have lying around ...or borrow a friends set of speakers

I just played the FOP disk, and confirm the loud pop at 51'26" into the disk.
The POP is louder than the listening volume. I did not turn up the 805 volume to see if the POP rises proportionally with overall volume. I can see where this is a potentially frightening problem.

That said, thanks for reporting, and I am quite perplexed about the fact that many other DTS MA disks do not exhibit this potentially damaging problem. That would lead me to think it is in the disk mastering for some movies.

My other observation re FOP movie is that the overall volume is big time elevated, relative to any other DTS tracks played at same volume. Anyone else notice this? Geez I played it at - 31 db on the the 805 display, and the track was still quite loud.
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post #637 of 2238 Old 03-26-2008, 06:36 AM
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Hi guys, I know as of now there have been no reports of the loud "boom" with the V663 model but I still posed the question to my sales rep at ABT. I have an appointment to have it installed this Sat along with the BD30. He emailed back and said that his Yamaha rep "hasn't heard of any problems with the new model". I also emailed customer support at Yamaha but no word back from them yet. Has anyone tried the problem dics with the V663 yet?

Thanks!
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post #638 of 2238 Old 03-26-2008, 06:57 AM
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Originally Posted by usermark8088 View Post

Hi guys, I know as of now there have been no reports of the loud "boom" with the V663 model but I still posed the question to my sales rep at ABT. I have an appointment to have it installed this Sat along with the BD30. He emailed back and said that his Yamaha rep "hasn't heard of any problems with the new model". I also emailed customer support at Yamaha but no word back from them yet. Has anyone tried the problem dics with the V663 yet?

Thanks!

Here's my advice. Is the installer part of ABT who sold you the receiver? If yes then purchase "The Fly" and while this person is there play the "bitstream bomb scene" so he can hear it your receiver exhibits the problem. If you hear it then return it immediately. I know you'll want to have your new system up and running in full but you're better off not taking ownership of a reciever that exhibits the bitstream bomb. You can then either look at a model that does NOT have this issue or wait until Yamaha releases a fix and the fix covers all receivers on the market.
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post #639 of 2238 Old 03-26-2008, 07:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Midwest User1 View Post

Here's my advice. Is the installer part of ABT who sold you the receiver? If yes then purchase "The Fly" and while this person is there play the "bitstream bomb scene" so he can hear it your receiver exhibits the problem. If you hear it then return it immediately. I know you'll want to have your new system up and running in full but you're better off not taking ownership of a reciever that exhibits the bitstream bomb. You can then either look at a model that does NOT have this issue or wait until Yamaha releases a fix and the fix covers all receivers on the market.

Are we really sure that this is a Yamaha & Onkyo problem? If it is, how do we explain the fact that many other DTS MA tracks do NOT exhibit this problem? Just wondering...
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post #640 of 2238 Old 03-26-2008, 07:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChickD1 View Post

Are we really sure that this is a Yamaha & Onkyo problem? If it is, how do we explain the fact that many other DTS MA tracks do NOT exhibit this problem? Just wondering...

Unfortunately since we aren't absolutely certain where the root cause of this issue lies:

Receiver only
Receiver and disk
disk only

The only safe route someone has at this time is to purchase a receiver that is known to NOT have this problem even with the known disk that exhibit it. Afterall the receiver cost a lot more than the disk do so which is the safer/cheaper culprit to eliminate? Plus as jsmiddleton can atest to it will be a fairly big inconvenience to have to ship your unit somewhere to get the "fix" if/when one is made available. So why would anyone knowingly want to end up in that position?
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post #641 of 2238 Old 03-26-2008, 07:12 AM
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I just checked out that youtube video posted earlier, and I have heard that pop before on my system even though I don't have DTS-MA bitstreaming capability yet. IIRC, I got it using my Oppo 980H to bitstream to my 885. I didn't think about it at the time, but it was trying to lock onto the signal from a SACD disc I just put in when I am trying to bitstream DSD to the 885. I have changed my 980H to only bitstream in PCM now and haven't heard that pop since.
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post #642 of 2238 Old 03-26-2008, 07:44 AM
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Hey Guys, the V663 is part of a larger install that involves rewiring a dedicated theater room from component to HDMI. I just emailed my sales guy from ABT asking if he can confirm with Yamaha if a different DTS chip was used in the V663. I also asked if there was a working model on the floor that can receive DTS MA so that I can come in and check out "The Fly" before the install.
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post #643 of 2238 Old 03-26-2008, 08:10 AM
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Ahhhhhhhh "The Fly" movie. Who would have thought that this movie would end up being dubbed "The definitive bistream bomb tester"

That just cracks me up!
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post #644 of 2238 Old 03-26-2008, 08:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jsmiddleton4 View Post

. . . And by the way we're not on a witch hunt here. I like my 1800 and Yamaha equipment a great deal. . . .

I am in the exact same boat with my Onkyo. I like my 705 very much. It sounds great and set ups really nicely in my system. It serves my needs perfectly.

That's a big part of the reason that I am interested in a resolution to this. I don't want anything to happen to it!

I am not really that upset with Onkyo (or Yamaha as a matter of principle) for it happening. It seems to me that there is a VERY specific stream of binary information that causes the bomb. So specific that a perhaps even a re-printing/re-coding of the BD master can alter it enough avoid the bomb. I can easily see how it would have never occured in testing.

My opinion of the affected companies will be formed solely on how they choose to address the issue with their customers.
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post #645 of 2238 Old 03-26-2008, 08:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChickD1 View Post

...
That said, thanks for reporting, and I am quite perplexed about the fact that many other DTS MA disks do not exhibit this potentially damaging problem. That would lead me to think it is in the disk mastering for some movies.
...

Data compression is quite complicated (I've worked with video compression, but a lot of the issues are similar to audio compression). Every audio track is obviously different, so it comprises a unique series of digital values that are fed into the encoder. Certain sequences of input values can be encoded to a particular sequence of values in the compressed bitstream that happens to trip up a particular decoder. i.e. a decoder can have a bug that will only show up very rarely when it's asked to decode a particular sequence of values.

Some movies contain these sequences and some don't, but even when they do it doesn't mean there is anything wrong with the bitstream (as the DTS guy confirmed, the problem is in the decoder, and it makes perfect sense).

What I'd like to know is whether the affected receivers are using progammable DSPs to decode the bitstream. I think they do, in which case a firmware fix should certainly be possible.
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post #646 of 2238 Old 03-26-2008, 08:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kriktsemaj99 View Post

Data compression is quite complicated (I've worked with video compression, but a lot of the issues are similar to audio compression). Every audio track is obviously different, so it comprises a unique series of digital values that are fed into the encoder. Certain sequences of input values can be encoded to a particular sequence of values in the compressed bitstream that happens to trip up a particular decoder. i.e. a decoder can have a bug that will only show up very rarely when it's asked to decode a particular sequence of values.

Some movies contain these sequences and some don't, but even when they do it doesn't mean there is anything wrong with the bitstream (as the DTS guy confirmed, the problem is in the decoder, and it makes perfect sense).

What I'd like to know is whether the affected receivers are using progammable DSPs to decode the bitstream. I think they do, in which case a firmware fix should certainly be possible.

Well the only evidence that makes one think a firmware update may NOT be the fix is the fact that the receivers that don't have this issue chose a different chipset (according to a few post within the thread). Now why they chose the different chipset is anyones guess. You obviously could still be right though which would make the fix a quicker process for all of us.
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post #647 of 2238 Old 03-26-2008, 08:27 AM
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I haven't tried any of the listed movies yet and I haven't experienced the pop with any of the movies I own. I'm afraid to try these movies now.

However, I do have a problem with DTS MA tracks in all movies when I'm playing the movie and decide to fast forward I get this horrible static and light popping sound coming through my speakers. Anyone else get this distortion when you press the fast forward?

It's funny because I can stop the distrotion problem by pressing the fastforward button once and as soon as the indicator shows up on the screen press the fast forward button again and I don't get the static.

My stuff:
Onkyo 805
Panasonic BDP-30
everything bitstreamed to the onkyo
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post #648 of 2238 Old 03-26-2008, 08:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChickD1 View Post

Are we really sure that this is a Yamaha & Onkyo problem? If it is, how do we explain the fact that many other DTS MA tracks do NOT exhibit this problem? Just wondering...

Also the fact that the list of offending movies seems to be slowly growing shows more evidence to it being an I/C chipset issue.
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post #649 of 2238 Old 03-26-2008, 08:38 AM
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Just curious...have any of the movies exhibited more than 1 "bomb"? In reading the posts it seems there is only one area in each movie that this happens. It is good to know this location so that while we're waiting for a fix to come out you can simply skip the known spot if you don't want to resort to PCMing all your DTS-MA movies. This is a real bummer. The whole reason for me getting my 605 was for HD Audio and now I felt like I wasted my money. Onkyo...if you're reading...help your customers out. I've been a loyal customer for a while...haha.
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post #650 of 2238 Old 03-26-2008, 08:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kriktsemaj99 View Post

. . . Some movies contain these sequences and some don't, but even when they do it doesn't mean there is anything wrong with the bitstream (as the DTS guy confirmed, the problem is in the decoder, and it makes perfect sense) . . .

Also, it seems a little courious to me that there is not a single movie released in the past six months that is on the list of known bit bombers. (I am discounting Golden Compass because it is reviewer's copy. Those are NOT final work and likely not even produced at a commercial production facilty.)

I have to think there is a possibility that something has changed either intentionally or unintentionally that may be preventing this on the more recently-released discs and those in second printing. Our friend at DTS said the encoding on those older discs is valid (to spec?) and that the newer releases are valid. However, he did not suggest or imply that they encoded in the exact same way.
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post #651 of 2238 Old 03-26-2008, 08:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thrang View Post

I tried to read through every page of this thread, but perhaps I missed this:

Of all the Onkyo HW mentioned, I don't seem to see any mention of the issue occurring with the 905. As well, I don't seem to see any mention of the Samsung 1400 Blu Ray player. This happens to be my combo, so before I begin testing, I'm curious if there are any prior bitstream bomb reports with one or both units in the mix.

Thanks

There was definately a user with the Sammy 1400 that had the issue (posted by Slimm, page 24, post# 706). I don't think that anyone with the 905 has reported yet but it's safe to assume that you will also get the BOMB.
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post #652 of 2238 Old 03-26-2008, 08:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by reyalP View Post

. . . It's funny because I can stop the distrotion problem by pressing the fastforward button once and as soon as the indicator shows up on the screen press the fast forward button again and I don't get the static. . .


The first level of FF on the BD30 is the slowest. At that level, the machine maintains the audio. It should play along with the video at the accelerated speed. Your second pressing of the FF speeds it up a bit and the audio is dropped, thus no static.

That said, I have not experienced static in the audio with the first FF, and I have nearly identical equipment. (I have the 705)
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post #653 of 2238 Old 03-26-2008, 09:03 AM
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Just tested Fantastic Four at the 4:22 timestamp with DTS-HD bitstreamed from my BD30 to my Onkyo 605, and I DID NOT hear any kind of pop.

My 605 was purchased from Amazon around Christmas time. The only other two discs in question that I have are CE3K and Flyboys, but there is no timestamp posted on the first post, so I cannot test those quickly.

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post #654 of 2238 Old 03-26-2008, 09:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jsmiddleton4 View Post

Is there anyone who can d/l midwest's video and post it on a "real" web site? Maybe one of the moderators here and it can be posted on AVS somehow? File size is too big to upload it as an attachment.

Also see if you can add the following song right after the bomb goes off in that scene:

"You dropped the bomb on me"
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post #655 of 2238 Old 03-26-2008, 09:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by browerjs View Post

Just tested Fantastic Four at the 4:22 timestamp with DTS-HD bitstreamed from my BD30 to my Onkyo 605, and I DID NOT hear any kind of pop.

My 605 was purchased from Amazon around Christmas time. The only other two discs in question that I have are CE3K and Flyboys, but there is no timestamp posted on the first post, so I cannot test those quickly.

Just to inform you the FF movie seems to be the one with the most post proving there was an encoding change within the release of that title. Some users get the bomb and others don't so please don't assume your gear is immune to the bomb if you've only tested Fantastc Four.
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post #656 of 2238 Old 03-26-2008, 09:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jsmiddleton4 View Post

. . . So it is a coding issue, a pressing issue, a hardware issue and a firmware issue all rolled into one.

Probably won't see something like it ever again.


Agreed, and if it is true that there has been a change to the DTS encoding (I did not say "fix" Mr. Katz ) that prevents the bomb on future titles and thus, it is limited to current circulation and a minimal number of titles, I would not expect Onk/Yam spend a lot of time and money to make it right.

If it is a FW issue, they are more likely to make good.
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post #657 of 2238 Old 03-26-2008, 09:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Midwest User1 View Post

Just to inform you the FF movie seems to be the one with the most post proving there was an encoding change within the release of that title. Some users get the bomb and others don't so please don't assume your gear is immune to the bomb if you've only tested Fantastc Four.


Any known timestamps of C3EK or Flyboys?

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post #658 of 2238 Old 03-26-2008, 09:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by browerjs View Post

. . . The only other two discs in question that I have are CE3K and Flyboys . . .

I got the bomb on Flyboys. It was within the first half of the movie. Sorry, but at the time I had no idea what it was. I can't recall anything more specific. It was a Netflix pick or I would try it again.

How long have you had the disc? I am curious if it is possible to speculate if it is a first or second pressing. (I have no idea how popular that disc was/is. There may be no second)
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post #659 of 2238 Old 03-26-2008, 09:14 AM
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IF there is a coding or pressing issue why it doesn't affect Denon?

I can test FlyBoys too if someone know the timestamp.......
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post #660 of 2238 Old 03-26-2008, 09:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chasarms View Post

I got the bomb on Flyboys. It was within the first half of the movie. Sorry, but at the time I had no idea what it was. I can't recall anything more specific. It was a Netflix pick or I would try it again.

How long have you had the disc? I am curious if it is possible to speculate if it is a first or second pressing. (I have no idea how popular that disc was/is. There may be no second)


I got it via a trade, so I have no idea which pressing it would be. I have yet to watch the movie (and don't plan to anytime soon), but if I get the timestamp, I will be glad to check (I have shi**y speakers, so I'm not too worried).

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