**WARNING** DTS Masters bitstreamed to Yamaha, Onkyo or Integra can damage speakers!! - Page 25 - AVS Forum
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Old 03-26-2008, 03:30 PM
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Agreed
the PS3 was practically what helped BR win the HD DVD battle due to the sheer volume of folks who owned one

If the PS3 can do bitsteaming and this happens then yes it will get a lot more attention

Unfortunately/Fortunately most younger people who own PS3s most likely dont own $500-1500 AVRs so they wouldnt find this issue as most are hard cabling their PS3 to their 32" to 42" LCD TV using HDMI connection
Good for them / bad for us


Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Hanky View Post

There is a bit of irony with that situation. It may never bitstream dts, but that simply means ps3 is not out of the woods, so to speak. The problem doesn't come about with the device that bitstreams, rather the device that decodes the bitstream. Hence, it is still possible that "when" ps3 gains the ability to internally decode dts-ma to pcm, it too could exhibit the Bitstream Bomb, via whatever decoding hardware it uses for this task. I sincerely hope this will not be the case, as I can imagine certain individuals out there would have a heyday on any given av forum with that scenario. After this incredible wait just to get dts-ma decoding on the ps3, the appearance of a "DTS-Bomb" would be an ultimate uzz-kill.


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Old 03-26-2008, 03:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jsmiddleton4 View Post

"Add to that HOW a buyer is supposed to figure out whether it is safe to play any new disc on a problem player before a fix is released short of taking the gamble and just trying it."

I guess we're all going to be buying The Fly for our test disk. Too bad as the studios will think we love the move and soon we'll see yet another remake of it.

You've got that right (grin!)

The thing is, who's going to be the guinea pig to test each new disc that comes out before the problem hardware gets fixed?
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Old 03-26-2008, 03:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Pariseau View Post

You've got that right (grin!)

The thing is, who's going to be the guinea pig to test each new disc that comes out before the problem hardware gets fixed?
--Bob

Shoot I would if one of the companys gave me a free:

Reciever
Set of speakers
Possibly new hearing if needed due to to many Bitstream bombs.
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Old 03-26-2008, 03:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by goksucats View Post

I stand corrected. Perhaps this DTS gentlemen should have just kept his mouth shut, as he clearly had a reason for being here, and I think it obviously was to brush any responsibility completely off of DTS's shoulders.

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Old 03-26-2008, 03:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NMJack View Post

Check this one out:

http://focus.ti.com/docs/pr/pressrel...prelId=sc07170

The date is October 2007 and Onkyo, Yamaha (and Marantz ) are all specifically mentioned.

You gentlemen did see this, correct? The link makes it sound like TI may be closest to this, as both Yamaha and Onkyo are quoted as indicating that one of the strengths of the TI DSPs is that they are essentially "plug and play," with the heavy lifting of firmware, certification, etc. already completed.
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Old 03-26-2008, 03:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tomes View Post

I've been checking out the Pioneer Elite receivers, I think the latest ones can decode DTS HD MA. Can anyone confirm whether the issue shows on these receivers as well, or not? I'll probably won't be buying until PS3 gets DTS HD MA decoding, so it will be interesting to see if this or other combo's will work out well...

I have a Pioneer Elite VSX-91TXH and have listened to a number of DTS-MA tracks without any issues. However, other than listening to about 30 min of Close Encounters in DTS-MA, I have not watched the titles mentioned on page 1 of this thread.

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Old 03-26-2008, 03:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jsmiddleton4 View Post

My dog said anyone but me.....

You know the real irony with the solution to that premise?

Wasn't it part of that very post that the DTS guy left here?

It was suggested that to avoid this issue (for the time being), one should set their equipment to pass pcm to their receiver, instead of bitstream.

1. No $hit, Einstein! (akin to telling your doctor that it hurts when you move your elbow in this manner, and the doctor telling you to stop moving it like that, then)

2. Yes, maybe pcm "is" the answer, altogether, and just leave bitstream dts out of the loop, altogether, eh? Things must really be dire when a representative from their own company advises to steer clear of their own product (or part in the product). (Naturally, I'm just poking some fun, as I don't really believe such a message was his intent, but this caliber of irony should be savored in the rare times it appears.)

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Old 03-26-2008, 03:37 PM
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If the bad titles were authored on OLDER DTS encoding software and then a later version of the software came out that didnt make this problem surface that could be why

Quote:
Originally Posted by thrang View Post

However: if this is exclusively an IC issue on certain branded AVR's, why wouldn't the issue be experienced with any DTS-MA audio track? Why only *certain* titles? It would seem to point to pressing/duplication issues with certain titles in conjunction with certain IC and/or firmware implementations.

Otherwise, why would one DTS-MA title discs go boom and not another? Why one not 100 booms? What's the trigger that trips the bad IC? Something tells me this will be a complicated one....and yes, DTS really has to take the lead, becuase wherever the blame likes, it's a DTS Technology-centric issue.


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Old 03-26-2008, 03:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NMJack View Post

You gentlemen did see this, correct? The link makes it sound like TI may be closest to this, as both Yamaha and Onkyo are quoted as indicating that one of the strengths of the TI DSPs is that they are essentially "plug and play," with the heavy lifting of firmware, certification, etc. already completed.

So I wonder how many additional design wins (new OEMs adopting that chip) TI has signed since that press release came out? That could give us a handle on which upcoming decoding players and AVRs might be Da Bomb...
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Old 03-26-2008, 03:40 PM
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Havent seen any reports of anyone using Harman Kardon (I worked at Harman Intl a while back) receivers have had the bomb issue
If Onkyo, Yamaha and HK all use the same DSP chips then HK users should be here on this with us, no?
Anyone?

Quote:
Originally Posted by kriktsemaj99 View Post

Yes the PS3 will decode in software, so if they don't get it right first time they can easily fix it.

But the same thing should apply to the problem receivers. Here's a press release announcing that the new Denons use Analog Devices DSPs to decode DTS-HD MA: http://www.prnewsnow.com/Public_Rele...cs/159418.html

Here's another one showing that Onkyo and Yamaha have both used TI DSPs in the past: http://focus.ti.com/docs/pr/pressrel...prelId=sc06152
It's not for the current models, but the 3800 firmware update document seems to indicate TI DSPs are still used.

So different DSPs, different software, some have bugs but should be fixable.


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Old 03-26-2008, 03:41 PM
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OMG! so the closest service center to send my onkyo is in denver, co?! im in california and the earlier posts about orange county didnt show on onkyos site
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Old 03-26-2008, 03:44 PM
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This one is good as it shows the circut layout
http://focus.ti.com/docs/solution/fo...licable+OT+pa6
Also check out the links below this one as it might give some insights to the version of DSPs used
Also you can click on each of the components icons and it will give you P/Ns used!
(see the application notes section of the site)

Quote:
Originally Posted by NMJack View Post

Check this one out:

http://focus.ti.com/docs/pr/pressrel...prelId=sc07170

The date is October 2007 and Onkyo, Yamaha (and Marantz ) are all specifically mentioned.

The article mentions "With the full certification of DTS-HD Master audio and DTS-LBR (Low Bit Rate), DA7xx DSPs are the first audio processors approved for both DTS-HD and Dolby TrueHD, and can support all audio formats present on next-generation HD DVD and Blu-Ray discs," which begs the question "who certifies and approves the implementation of DTS-HD?" Would it be DTS labs??


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Old 03-26-2008, 03:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kinglerxt View Post

If the bad titles were authored on OLDER DTS encoding software and then a later version of the software came out that didnt make this problem surface that could be why

Except that Ronny the DTS guy claims, quite emphatically, that even the discs that bomb are CORRECTLY encoded.

The implication is that there is some data specific loose end in the decoding process that causes the decoding to bomb out only when certain, properly encoded streams are fed to it.

DTS-HD MA is a core plus extensions system. The core is lossy DTS, which is pretty much a commodity technology. The extensions add back in the missing bits to make it lossless. You can imagine a situation where certain types of audio streams could cause a particular decoder to have math errors -- overflow and the like -- in this process even though the bitstream itself is "properly" encoded.

Of course this is just the sort of thing that decoder certification testing is supposed to prevent. But they probably didn't test enough to reveal this issue on the TI chip set (or whatever).
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Old 03-26-2008, 03:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Pariseau View Post

So I wonder how many additional design wins (new OEMs adopting that chip) TI has signed since that press release came out? That could give us a handle on which upcoming decoding players and AVRs might be Da Bomb...
--Bob

Exactly. I found the following interesting "TI's audio framework enables original equipment manufacturers (OEMs) to easily plug in differentiating post-processing modules from TI or TI third parties, including Audyssey MultEQ XT, Neural-THX Surround, SRS Circle Surround II and THX Ultra 2." It brings out the complexity of this issue. Let's say I'm Onkyo. I put the basic TI DSP into my new HD receiver, and then buy added software from a third party (such as Audyssey) to help me market my product as unique versus brand X. Now I have TI hardware, TI firmware, Audyssey firmware and my own supporting electronics all playing together (hopefully nicely). The fight breaks out and everyone is accusing everyone else of starting something.

Buy the way, does the bomb sound kinda like the Audyessey test signals going off in all 6 - 8 speakers at once? Those things are loud and, IIRC, unaffected by the volume setting.
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Old 03-26-2008, 03:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by un4gvn94538 View Post

OMG! so the closest service center to send my onkyo is in denver, co?! im in california and the earlier posts about orange county didnt show on onkyos site


Mine is about 6 miles from my house

By the way can we stop the blaming game. At the end what matters is that the problems gets solved and beside NONE of us know what is happening in the background between DTS, Onkyo & Yamaha.
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Old 03-26-2008, 03:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kinglerxt View Post

Havent seen any reports of anyone using Harman Kardon (I worked at Harman Intl a while back) receivers have had the bomb issue
If Onkyo, Yamaha and HK all use the same DSP chips then HK users should be here on this with us, no?
Anyone?

We don't know exactly which models have which DSPs, but I'm not sure HK have released new models yet that decode DTS-HD MA.
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Old 03-26-2008, 04:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jsmiddleton4 View Post

"maybe pcm "is" the answer, altogether, and just leave bitstream dts out of the loop"

This is also why I have not picked up a Denon 3808 yet. 2.0 spec blue ray players hitting market soon and will have full decode capability. PCM to the receiver and be done with the whole thing. Keep the 1800 and go pcm route.

Hard to argue with even if is the voices in my own head.

But it makes one ask himself why he spent money on a A/V receiver that will do the decoding internally, when most any HDMI A/V receiver that has the ability to accept up PCM lossless audio would have worked, which covers many, many receivers, and not just the few we're talking about here.

No, don't tell yourself that. That's letting all of these clowns off way to easy... Onkyo, Yamaha, DTS, TI.. whoever it is.
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Old 03-26-2008, 04:09 PM
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Here are all the service centers for my local area (So. Cal / Orange)
Type your Zip Code in here:
http://www.onkyousa.com/loc_results.cfm

Regional Service Center
Dtr Technologies
2525 West 6th Aven
Denver, CO 80204
303-573-6288 (Tel)
Distance: 845.6 miles

Please see below for local Service Centers.

Hi Fi Doctor
1814 E Ball Road
Anaheim, CA 92805
714 772-7720 (Tel)
Distance: 10.7 miles

Network Video Services Inc
320 E. Orangethorpe Ave
Suite D
Placentia, CA 92870
714-985-3410 (Tel)
Distance: 11.4 miles

Precision Sound Service
823 Pico Blvd
Santa Monica, CA 90405
310 450-6511 (Tel)
Distance: 25.7 miles


Northridge Electronics
4505-2b Industrial Street
Simi Vally, CA 93063
805-583-1919 (Tel)
Distance: 44.7 miles


Quote:
Originally Posted by jsmiddleton4 View Post

un....

I can't believe there are no service centers for you in the LA area. Did you try Taps Electronics in Buena Park?


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Old 03-26-2008, 04:11 PM
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Originally Posted by un4gvn94538 View Post

OMG! so the closest service center to send my onkyo is in denver, co?! im in california and the earlier posts about orange county didnt show on onkyos site

If you're getting your site from doing a search on Onkyo's...those aren't the only ones. I am having a place here working on my Sony TV...and I asked them about my Onkyo receiver and they said they were an authorized service center and do warranty work on Onkyo products. I live in San Diego. When I looked it up on Onkyo's site though, I got the same listing you did...haha. Call Onkyo on the phone and I'm sure they can locate closer places to you in the LA area. On the other hand, if this turns out to be a firmware update, you should probably be able to do it yourself in a matter of minutes.
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Old 03-26-2008, 04:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jsmiddleton4 View Post

Well Yamaha has a service center in Phoenix. They still had me send it to LA area. While I will be glad if its just a firmware fix.......

Will not be happy to find out it could have been handled with a d/l and a burned cd-r.....

You know what they are realling doing with your receiver right?

They are going to have a "Bistream Bomb" party by playing all of the offending movies over and over until they get a firmware fix so they can send it back
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Old 03-26-2008, 04:28 PM
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Well, it's their speakers
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Old 03-26-2008, 04:28 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Midwest User1 View Post

You know what they are realling doing with your receiver right?

They are going to have a "Bistream Bomb" party by playing all of the offending movies over and over until they get a firmware fix so they can send it back

Or what if they downconvert the DTS... no one would ever know!
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Old 03-26-2008, 04:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jsmiddleton4 View Post

My greatest fear is it will show up at my door, there will be a note inside that says, "We hooked this up to our PS3 and it played perfectly so we could not replicate the problem."

If that happens and you decided to "lose it" call me because I'll go with
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Old 03-26-2008, 04:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jsmiddleton4 View Post

I would want to take at least one postal worker with me.

Just imagine how much longer this would take to get the attention of the party's at fault if there were no Internet. That's probably really close to the actual response you'd get if there were no Internet.
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Old 03-26-2008, 04:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shamus View Post

Or what if they downconvert the DTS... no one would ever know!

Aiyeeee! What if that firmware fix involves simply throwing the dts-core sound sample into the stream (in place of the compiled dts-ma sound sample) when the "bomb code" is detected? It's a bobo way to fix it, but dirt simple. Could someone resist the temptation to adopt such a solution if under the gun for a quick solution?

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Old 03-26-2008, 04:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Hanky View Post

Aiyeeee! What if that firmware fix involves simply throwing the dts-core sound sample into the stream (in place of the compiled dts-ma sound sample) when the "bomb code" is detected? It's a bobo way to fix it, but dirt simple. Could someone resist the temptation to adopt such a solution if under the gun for a quick solution?

It wouldn't surprise me if that had crossed someones mind by now but that still wouldn't ease the minds of the users that already own the disk that causes this affect.
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Old 03-26-2008, 04:52 PM
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jsmiddleton made an valid point in one post. We've probably boosted the sales of "The Fly" by 1,000 fold! Doesn't that mean we are all entitled to some royalties now

I can see the headlines now: "The Fly breaks the all time disk sales record due to its inherent ability to produce the Bitstream Bomb with ALL copies released
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Old 03-26-2008, 04:56 PM
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I fully agree that a proper fix should involve restoring the appropriate dts-ma sample where that "bomb" would have occurred.

Also, I would presume this could be applied to decoding hardware wherever a firmware update is possible. So that should cover your situation, Midwest, regardless of the state of the disc in playback.

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Old 03-26-2008, 05:02 PM
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I'm happy to say that after swapping out my Onkyo 705 for a Pioneer 91, the "gunshot" is gone from Flight of the Phoenix (approx. 51 minutes in when they break off the wing). Still not pleased that the Onkyo has the issue. I'll try to give Onkyo a call tomorrow to report the issue.
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Old 03-26-2008, 05:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hd03vrod View Post

I'm happy to say that after swapping out my Onkyo 705 for a Pioneer 91, the "gunshot" is gone from Flight of the Phoenix (approx. 51 minutes in when they break off the wing). Still not pleased that the Onkyo has the issue. I'll try to give Onkyo a call tomorrow to report the issue.

what pioneer model do you have?
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