**WARNING** DTS Masters bitstreamed to Yamaha, Onkyo or Integra can damage speakers!! - Page 7 - AVS Forum
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post #181 of 2238 Old 03-20-2008, 11:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Ballentine View Post

So it's an Integra/Onkyo thing? (Dang)


no I think it is a yamaha/onkyo/maybe pio from reading this thread.
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post #182 of 2238 Old 03-20-2008, 11:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jsmiddleton4 View Post

Live Free and Die Hard as far as I know did not exhibit the problem.

These four so far:

-The Fly
-Fantastic Four
-The Golden Compass
-Chronos

You can add the BD release of 1408 from DFW to that list.

I mentioned this issue back in Jan when I posted my comments regarding its lackluster PQ and no one in that thread seemed to know what I was talking about.

On this disc the issue occurs when John Cusack’s character pulls up to the Inn at the beginning of the film.

I played this scene again (the second time at a much lower volume level) and both times I was able to replicate this issue. Thankfully it was only present during this one instance.

I consider myself very fortunate that my speakers weren't damaged.

EDIT: I forgot to add that I'm using a BD30 to an Onkyo 805.

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post #183 of 2238 Old 03-20-2008, 12:46 PM
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Well if it is the prepro/receiver we Onkyo 885 users are screwed. No more firmware updates unless we bring it to a authorized service center, for something we could do in 10 minutes at home with no need to completely disassemble our setups.

I wonder if this is fixed in v1.06 which is what my 885 came with. Unfortunately I can't test it as I haven't bought a stand alone player yet, but I doubt it's been fixed.
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post #184 of 2238 Old 03-20-2008, 12:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shamus View Post

Maybe Kris(or someone else) has access to a Denon and kind finally narrow down this issue?

By the way, good work Midwest User1!!!

All are welcome as I just got back home from the Dealer. Since Marantz & Denon are owned by the same outfit "D&M Holdings" it's very likely that the Denon will not exhibit this issue either.

Also jsmiddleton4 makes a good point in that what we are able to prove with the test I did at the dealer is that we know there are receivers out there that DO NOT get this pop with the very same disk & player that the other receivers do get it. It is still very possible that it's a combination of what's on the disk and how the receivers are interpreting it.

Either way I would think we'd all agree that we'd rather have our receivers handle that data point the way the Marantz does (NO POP SOUND). Assuming that there is nothing being degraded in the audio by how the Marantz is handling it of course.

More good news is my dealer "Video & Audio" recorded the sound with my Integra 9.8 unit. He recorded it by capturing the TV screen and then once again by recording the front display panel of the 9.8. He then also recorded it while we played the standard Dolby Digital track to show that it does NOT make the Pop sound with that audio format. This way he can email those recordings along with a summary of our trouble shooting to Integra to hopefully end up with a resolution.
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post #185 of 2238 Old 03-20-2008, 01:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jsmiddleton4 View Post

Yep, that's the noise. You expect to see parts of your speakers embedded in the wall behind you.....

LOL. That's so true. Thankfully, I watched 1408 late at night so I wasn't listening at my normal volume setting. It was still loud enough though that it scared the bejesus out of me, and the thought of possible speaker damage freaked me out.

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This thing has to get nailed down. Very upsetting when it happens. So much so that I am hesitant each time I use DTS HD MA audio.

I feel the same hesitation. So much so that I now listen to DTS-HD MA tracks at a lower volume level than what I use for other audio codec's.

I'd also like to give thanks to Midwest User1 and everyone else in this thread for their work in trying to figure this out.

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post #186 of 2238 Old 03-20-2008, 01:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Luffy View Post

Well if it is the prepro/receiver we Onkyo 885 users are screwed. No more firmware updates unless we bring it to a authorized service center, for something we could do in 10 minutes at home with no need to completely disassemble our setups.

I wonder if this is fixed in v1.06 which is what my 885 came with. Unfortunately I can't test it as I haven't bought a stand alone player yet, but I doubt it's been fixed.

I doubt it to and the only reason we didn't update my 9.8 to 1.06 is the dealer said that release is still in "Beta" status and he recommended not to upgrade to that release until it's out of beta.
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post #187 of 2238 Old 03-20-2008, 01:21 PM
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I know this won't help resolve this issue but many, many years ago when I had a HK AVR300 it would have similar problems with some (not all) DTS DVDs. I would get pops and digital fuzz on my unit. From my investigations I found out that there were a small batch of units that had bad chip sets and even a few Rotels had the same issue (according to my dealer).

This could be something similar as it seems to be limited to specific brand/pieces of equipment.
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post #188 of 2238 Old 03-20-2008, 01:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jsmiddleton4 View Post

What is frustrating is the lack of urgency from the folks I have contacted and the patronizing attitude they have. They just don't seem to want to believe me when I report the nature of this noise and the potential damage it can cause. Its quite frustrating. All we need is for them to hear it and they'd get it. Like an urgent memo/email needs to be sent out. I have kept all my emails, dates and times, with Yamaha about it. The reaction is as if I am being overly dramatic about it.

I've emailed them several times and have linked them to this thread. If someone does actually have damage after we've been notifying Fox/Yamaha/etc., they'll be hard pressed to plead ignorance.

I keep encouraging folks to report it. I hope they are.

You better believe that I'll be contacting my dealer every few days to see if he's received a response from Integra. You're right as they have no excuse to plead ingnorance if everyone keeps reporting the issue. And if it is determined to be a hardware issue (i.e. it cannot be corrected with a fimware update) I'll be demanding a replacement unit. If they ignore us still then we'll band together with a class action lawsuit if we're forced to.

I'm just sick and tired of how such a high percentage of companies will not do right by their customers with known issues until they are forced to.
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post #189 of 2238 Old 03-20-2008, 01:40 PM
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Have you tried swapping HDMI cables? High bit-rates can cause pops and crackle due to cheap cables not handling the bit-rate. It would be in the same place, every time.
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post #190 of 2238 Old 03-20-2008, 01:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jsmiddleton4 View Post

want...

Thanks but again this is not pops and fuzz. This is nuclear bomb going off. Those of us who have heard it, we can assure you it is not anything like a pop or a fuzz sound. Its hard to describe but its way more than that.

I did understand what you meant by the pop sound but I was just saying if it has happened before in the past (kind of funny it was DTS then) it could happen again today. Of course its a different problem but don't you find it funny that it only happens on a few BD w/DTA_MA and select equipment. The amount of electronics/logic/programming that goes into these things it is impossible for them to test all scenarios and things like this happen. It is really frustrating for those owner and I can understand how they feel.

* NOTE: I'm not picking on DTS or any company.
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post #191 of 2238 Old 03-20-2008, 01:53 PM
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Originally Posted by whiskersland View Post

Have you tried swapping HDMI cables? High bit-rates can cause pops and crackle due to cheap cables not handling the bit-rate. It would be in the same place, every time.

We are positive it's not the HDMI cable. Just in my case alone I've tried 2 different high quality HDMI cables (Audio Quest & Gefen). Plus we have a third set of HDMI cables that were used when I was at the dealer earlier today. I am 100% certain that it's not the HDMI cable because if you read my test scenario summary above where the Marantz SR8002 did NOT have the pop it was the exact same HDMI cable used as with the Intergra's that DID.
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post #192 of 2238 Old 03-20-2008, 01:59 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Midwest User1 View Post

We are positive it's not the HDMI cable. Just in my case alone I've tried 2 different high quality HDMI cables (Audio Quest & Gefen). Plus we have a third set of HDMI cables that were used when I was at the dealer earlier today. I am 100% certain that it's not the HDMI cable because if you read my test scenario summary above where the Marantz SR8002 did NOT have the pop it was the exact same HDMI cable used as with the Intergra's that DID.

Did you happen to try a different player with the integra?
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post #193 of 2238 Old 03-20-2008, 02:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shamus View Post

Did you happen to try a different player with the integra?

No as they did not have a player on hand that could bitstream DTS HD MA (they've been selling the units as soon as they come in). However throughout the thread there have been more than one player involved (Pioneer BDP-95FD, Panasonic DMP-BD30, and an HD DVD player also had this issue). We are very, very safe to rule out the players themselves as again the Marantz SR8002 would have had this issue as well with my Blu-Ray player (Pioneer BDP-95FD) if it were part of the cause.

At this point I think we have successfully narrowed this down to the receivers and/or the disk itself.
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post #194 of 2238 Old 03-20-2008, 02:12 PM
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Here is the official response from Onkyo reguarding the "popping" noise for the 705:

Are you experiencing a "poping" noise when bitstreaming DTS MASTER tracks? Please provide details of the movie you are watching, when the popping noise occurs, how do you have your unit hooked up and what other devices and brand names are you using? We are not aware of any current issues, with the information you provide we will attempt to duplicate the problem.

Thank You for contacting Onkyo USA Product Support.

Alcena Vaughn
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post #195 of 2238 Old 03-20-2008, 02:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shabre View Post

Here is the official response from Onkyo reguarding the "popping" noise for the 705:

Are you experiencing a "poping" noise when bitstreaming DTS MASTER tracks? Please provide details of the movie you are watching, when the popping noise occurs, how do you have your unit hooked up and what other devices and brand names are you using? We are not aware of any current issues, with the information you provide we will attempt to duplicate the problem.

Thank You for contacting Onkyo USA Product Support.

Alcena Vaughn

Tell them to the call University Audio in Madison, WI. and talk to the store Manager Ben. He'll confirm for these folks that it's not the cables, players, settings etc.

I truley feel that within this thread we've successfully narrowed it down to the receivers themselves and/or the disk.

You cannot get any more definative than my testing as everything identical was used for all test and ONLY the receivers themselves were changed out. And YES all of the tested receivers displays showed "DTS HD MSTR" and the dealer even verified the bitrate it was receiving.
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post #196 of 2238 Old 03-20-2008, 02:31 PM
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Hmm didnt even see that movie listed on the Audio specs forum or Bluray.com site

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kroenen View Post

You can add the BD release of 1408 from DFW to that list.


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post #197 of 2238 Old 03-20-2008, 02:37 PM
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So who can take the lead on contacting the other receiver mfg's out there about this and can we have someone draft a formal stock letter to send to them with all the info that clearly and professionally covers all the things we have found in our testing so that each company gets the same message and not ''just some "mishmash" from some guys on a chat / post board'' (as they would seem to look at it)

I think this would help us get resolution and attention brought to the subject better than other methods

I have the Onkyo 705 receiver


Quote:
Originally Posted by jsmiddleton4 View Post

What is frustrating is the lack of urgency from the folks I have contacted and the patronizing attitude they have. They just don't seem to want to believe me when I report the nature of this noise and the potential damage it can cause. Its quite frustrating. All we need is for them to hear it and they'd get it. Like an urgent memo/email needs to be sent out. I have kept all my emails, dates and times, with Yamaha about it. The reaction is as if I am being overly dramatic about it.

I've emailed them several times and have linked them to this thread. If someone does actually have damage after we've been notifying Fox/Yamaha/etc., they'll be hard pressed to plead ignorance.


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post #198 of 2238 Old 03-20-2008, 02:42 PM
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Does anyone have a way to determine which sound processer in installed on each of these receivers to see if they all share something in common?

Ive worked in Quality for manufacturing companies all my career
Need to do a IS / IS NOT table in excel so that you list all the things / scenarios that DO exhibit the pop sound on one side of the table and all the things that DO NOT exhibit the sound pop on the other side of the table

http://creatingminds.org/tools/is-is_not.htm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Midwest User1 View Post

However throughout the thread there have been more than one player involved (Pioneer BDP-95FD, Panasonic DMP-BD30, and an HD DVD player also had this issue). We are very, very safe to rule out the players themselves as again the Marantz SR8002 would have had this issue as well with my Blu-Ray player (Pioneer BDP-95FD).

At this point I think we have successfully narrowed this down to the receivers and/or the disk itself.


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post #199 of 2238 Old 03-20-2008, 02:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Midwest User1 View Post

Tell them to the call University Audio in Madison, WI. and talk to the store Manager Ben. He'll confirm for these folks that it's not the cables, players, settings etc.

I truley feel that within this thread we've successfully narrowed it down to the receivers themselves and/or the disk.

You cannot get any more definative than my testing as everything identical was used for all test and ONLY the receivers themselves were changed out. Any YES all of the tested receivers displays showed "DTS HD MSTR" and the dealer even verified the bitrate it was receiving.

well do, I will copy and paste this message and email my "contact" at Onkyo
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post #200 of 2238 Old 03-20-2008, 02:57 PM
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Please provide the email address to send in that back to Onkyo as I am an owner of a 705
Thanks

Quote:
Originally Posted by shabre View Post

Here is the official response from Onkyo reguarding the "popping" noise for the 705:

Are you experiencing a "poping" noise when bitstreaming DTS MASTER tracks? Please provide details of the movie you are watching, when the popping noise occurs, how do you have your unit hooked up and what other devices and brand names are you using? We are not aware of any current issues, with the information you provide we will attempt to duplicate the problem.

Thank You for contacting Onkyo USA Product Support.

Alcena Vaughn


"We each pay a fabulous price, for our visions of paradise. But a spirit with a vision, is a dream with a mission" - Rush
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post #201 of 2238 Old 03-20-2008, 03:02 PM
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I completely agree with some of the previous posters that this is not best described as a pop. This is, as coined above, nuclear.

I've posted on this issue in other forums/threads so I'm glad to see that this is getting attention. I thought it was a singular occurrence.

My experience was:
Close Encounters - Blu-Ray Special Edition DTS-HD MA via bitstream
(The speaker explosion (not physical) was about half-way through)
Sammy BD-P1400 set to bitstream
Monoprice HDMI cable - 18"
Onkyo 705 using PLIIx DSP

I did look around for bits and pieces of woven carbon fiber and neodymium traces but my speakers made it through the ordeal. It hasn't happened since and I do take pains to to try and catch it on DTS material.

Some days it's hardly worth chewing through the restraints.
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post #202 of 2238 Old 03-20-2008, 03:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kinglerxt View Post

Please provide the email address to send in that back to Onkyo as I am an owner of a 705
Thanks

onkyo@us.onkyo.com
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post #203 of 2238 Old 03-20-2008, 03:41 PM
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It sounds like this audio glitch is some sort of full-scale-ish dc squarewave. Depending on the native filtering present on the amplifier, the result will be some degree of "pop" from the initial pulse of the signal. If there is not enough dc-filtering, the "pop" will be accompanied by some amount of infrasonic pulse (perhaps, the character of a "gunshot"). If any of the analog stages in the chain are getting overloaded from such a signal, they may contribute their own additional break-up modes to the audio result, as well.

As for why it occurs, maybe there is some errata in certain decoding chips (maybe not even isolated to a particular chip family, rather an implementation version that was in effect on some manufacturing lot, one week). The errata causes a disruption in decoding when the right conditions are present to trigger it. Normally, this would not be a problem (as a digital decoding spec should certainly have some built-in tolerance to corrupt data or intermittently poor signal conditions). So, perhaps this is suggesting a bad failsafe mode in the DTS Master algorithm, itself? When corrupt data or temporary interruption of stream is encountered, the worst that should happen is a quiet click or a repeated sound sample (if you can hear it, at all). If the decoder issues a fullscale "pop" or has to reset from a crash which causes a nasty "pop" transient, that is very bad practice. Somewhere along the line, a failsafe mode is not behaving as it should.

A drop-out in hdmi encryption should not be counted out, as well.

I don't think this is the fault of any one party (which makes it that much more difficult to get action, of course). I DO think there are specific parties that should be involved to investigate this and make any corrections they can in their respective arenas.

DTS should be investigating their failsafe modes and verify that their licensees are producing properly compliant chips (such that these failsafe modes are working properly in these chips). The data stream could be good/bad/intermittent, but under no circumstances is it appropriate for a fullscale "pop" to be the resulting sound.

Similarly, manufacturers should be verifying that the DTS chips they are using are working according to spec (especially, regarding the failsafe modes from bad signals or crashes).

Disc mastering houses should be verifying that they are indeed encoding DTS legal streams, in the moments where these "pops" are recurring.

Jesse Jackson may require some charity grant, as well. I have not heard him weigh in on this, just yet.

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post #204 of 2238 Old 03-20-2008, 03:54 PM
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Here is the most recent response from Onkyo...


All your feedback is appreciated, we will test and try to duplicate the issue. This will take a week or so because we do not have all the sources you mentioned, I will get back to after testing is complete.

Thank You for contacting Onkyo USA Product Support.

Alcena Vaughn
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post #205 of 2238 Old 03-20-2008, 03:57 PM
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Does the Denon 3808 AVR receiver have this problem as well?
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post #206 of 2238 Old 03-20-2008, 03:59 PM
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Just jumping in now. I haven't read the thread completely, but I will.

I had the issue with FF. Scared the living crap out of me. No more DTS-MA until I see confirmation of a fix.

Relevant equipment:
BD30
Onkyo PR-SC885

I'm thinking its the CODEC. It may be an Onkyo issue, but remember where the codec comes from.

Craig

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post #207 of 2238 Old 03-20-2008, 04:02 PM
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I liked the idea when someone suggested getting a recording of the event, but maybe a more poignant approach (the kind that gets engineers drawn into the process) is if somebody could capture the waveform (via data acquisition of the analog speaker voltage) such that it can be visually seen on a scope. Once you have that, it is like having a snapshot of Bigfoot, and people will take notice.

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post #208 of 2238 Old 03-20-2008, 05:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jsmiddleton4 View Post

I don't have the equipment to capture it like that. I can send them a picture of my dog pawing at the sliding door trying to get out of the house.....

I agree- what I suggest does require equipment that is not just sitting around in anyone's home. It would certainly be the kind of documentation/substantiation that would get people involved, if you can find somebody that does have this kind of equipment. Usually, that would be somebody like an electronics hobbyist or electrician, by trade. There are handhelds that are common tools of the trade that could capture such a trace, I think.

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post #209 of 2238 Old 03-20-2008, 05:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jsmiddleton4 View Post

Does the Denon 3808 AVR receiver have this problem as well?
__________________

So far none have been reported. Waiting to be sure though.

they are probably too busy with their firmwares and network problems
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post #210 of 2238 Old 03-20-2008, 05:38 PM
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