PS3 Firmware 2.3x - Master Thread [FIRMWARE TALK ONLY PLEASE] - Page 23 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #661 of 1585 Old 04-15-2008, 08:21 PM
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It looks a lot like this DTS-HD MA decoding, wherever it is done, is not yet a "known technology". Basically DTS' "certification" testing for these decoders is either not catching things, or DTS is letting manufacturers get away with putting the DTS-HD MA logo on products that are KNOWN to fail.

Part of this may be time pressure to get these products out.

Whichever is the case, it makes it tricky for a buyer, as you can't just assume all decoders carrying that logo actually produce correct results.

Even the experts here aren't equipped to evaluate any given DTS-HD MA decoder for correct operation. We can catch gross errors (such as not handling New Line's format flagging for 7.1 properly), but if there are subtle errors in any of these decoders we are not likely to notice it until people start believing posters that say product A's decoding "sounds better" than product B's decoding.

And this is JUST the sort of thing DTS' certification was supposed to prevent.

It is exasperating to say the least.
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post #662 of 1585 Old 04-15-2008, 08:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kriktsemaj99 View Post

OK, but then surely they must not be producing the intended effect on the current crop of receivers that don't remix anything. It can't work properly for both cases (receivers that remix and receivers that don't).

There are no receivers that currently incorporate Speaker Remapping, and decoders are supposed to be designed to output both 7.1 configs as 7.1.. all of the current receivers that decode DTS-HD/MA are properly decoding both of these configs, which as I said, are the only two currently supported, and outputting them properly to the surround speakers, in both 5.1 and 7.1 setups ..

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Originally Posted by iceperson View Post

If the disks that aren't working are flagged correctly then are the disks that do work flagged incorrectly?

No.. both discs are properly flagged... it is purely a decoder issue.
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post #663 of 1585 Old 04-15-2008, 08:26 PM
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Originally Posted by FilmMixer View Post

Not really the same thing... one compensates for where you are seated (distance and level in a receiver) and helps you set up a proper reference level, and the other (DTS' configs and speaker remapping) gives content makers the freedom to translate their tracks to a variety of setups.

The idea behind the Speaker Remapping feature was to be able to better simulate the intent of the mixers in a wide variety of setups... in reality, the and in my opinion, the difference in the two 7.1 configs are not really going to make a big difference for 99% of the population.... most people who are able to set up side surrounds at 90 degrees don't have a room deep enough to also put surrounds at 110 and 150 and hear a big difference in it... most people are obviously going to have the position of their surrounds dictated by the room and furniture, and when mixing the difference in panning starting at 90 degrees or 110 degrees isn't going to change my pan too much..

For those with rooms who have the luxury of being able to have surrounds at 90, the pan from front to rear is going to walk up the wall a bit better... but in my experience, the walk will be very similar regardless if I mixed it with surrounds at either 90 or 110..

In the end, the confusion these different cofigs are causing aren't helping anyone, and in reality, the real world dictation of speaker placement makes these choices kind of trivial... however, DTS has created a tech that, in the future, will allow users to experience what we intended using different setups. It just seems they need to help their licensing partners get up to speed a little better.

FWIW, I am currently doing a 5.1 home theater re-master, and as always, I am set up with the surrounds at 110.... it seems to more closely match my theatrical surround setup which consists of 5 surround speakers per side, the first starting at 85 degrees and ending at about 170...

Thanks. I understand it better now. Still not sure about some of those diagrams...like the Front High position. What's the point of that?

I agree about most people's furniture and room dictating placement of speakers more than anything else. My situation certainly does. My two rears are also at about 110, if I had a 7.1 system my sides would either be freestanding in the middle of the room or on the ceiling and 4' higher than all the others.

Pics from my TV here and here.
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post #664 of 1585 Old 04-15-2008, 08:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by friedriceballer View Post

Yah I know I'm a little disappointed, but it's not a huge blow, we still got dts-HD MA decoding, and you can't complain when you paid $299-$499 for a really good BD player that has alot more functionality than BDs if you so choose to use that functionality. Plus other than the Denon 3800, it's the first to market with dts-HD MA decoding. I hope they fix this in a future firmware update, but for now, it'll do, I only have the one 7.1 track anyways, Pan's Labyrinth, so I may just hold off watching that until they update it again. But otherwise, good job SONY!!!

No its not the Panny BD-30 decodes DTS-MA
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post #665 of 1585 Old 04-15-2008, 08:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FilmMixer View Post

In the end, the confusion these different cofigs are causing aren't helping anyone, and in reality, the real world dictation of speaker placement makes these choices kind of trivial... however, DTS has created a tech that, in the future, will allow users to experience what we intended using different setups. It just seems they need to help their licensing partners get up to speed a little better.

FWIW, I am currently doing a 5.1 home theater re-master, and as always, I am set up with the surrounds at 110.... it seems to more closely match my theatrical surround setup which consists of 5 surround speakers per side, the first starting at 85 degrees and ending at about 170...

Sorry to keep pushing this point, but it seems like there would be more chance of getting a good result on all setups if all tracks were mixed for one standard speaker layout, then the receiver implemented the remapping feature according to speaker positions that the user input. And this way even 5.1 systems could benefit from the remixing in the receiver.

Having the flags in the codec just seems an unnecessary extra step, and one that will produce undesirable results on old equipment (if a track were mixed for one of the more unusual speaker layouts, but simply output as-is on quite a different layout).
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post #666 of 1585 Old 04-15-2008, 08:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rox addict View Post

No its not the Panny BD-30 decodes DTS-MA

I believe the BD-30 only bitstreams it. The BD-50 will be able to decode it.

Pics from my TV here and here.
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post #667 of 1585 Old 04-15-2008, 08:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Pariseau View Post

It looks a lot like this DTS-HD MA decoding, wherever it is done, is not yet a "known technology". Basically DTS' "certification" testing for these decoders is either not catching things, or DTS is letting manufacturers get away with putting the DTS-HD MA logo on products that are KNOWN to fail.

Part of this may be time pressure to get these products out.

Whichever is the case, it makes it tricky for a buyer, as you can't just assume all decoders carrying that logo actually produce correct results.

Even the experts here aren't equipped to evaluate any given DTS-HD MA decoder for correct operation. We can catch gross errors (such as not handling New Line's format flagging for 7.1 properly), but if there are subtle errors in any of these decoders we are not likely to notice it until people start believing posters that say product A's decoding "sounds better" than product B's decoding.

And this is JUST the sort of thing DTS' certification was supposed to prevent.

It is exasperating to say the least.
--Bob

Bob.. as far as receiver are concerned, all of them have decoded properly, the display issues notwithstanding. As I mentioned earlier, DTS did notify Denon during Cert, and Denon made the decision to release.

I haven't delved into the 3800 yet, but this PS3 issue is the first to come to my attention that involves the actual output be wrong... and it's hard to know whether or not the surrounds on the 5.1 outputs actually contain the downmix of the 2 discrete surround channels or if the PS3 is throwing the side surround info out.
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post #668 of 1585 Old 04-15-2008, 08:31 PM
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Here's the official DTS PDF file on logo usage by hardware licensees:

http://www.dtsonline.com/media/2007/...ensee_v1.2.pdf

I can't find anything in here related to "DTS-HD MA Limited".

It may be something they created specifically for Sony.
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post #669 of 1585 Old 04-15-2008, 08:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kriktsemaj99 View Post

Sorry to keep pushing this point, but it seems like there would be more chance of getting a good result on all setups if all tracks were mixed for one standard speaker layout, then the receiver implemented the remapping feature according to speaker positions that the user input. And this way even 5.1 systems could benefit from the remixing in the receiver.

Having the flags in the codec just seems an unnecessary extra step, and one that will produce undesirable results on old equipment (if a track were mixed for one of the more unusual speaker layouts, but simply output as-is on quite a different layout).

I just read on the remapping feature as well and it seems that is the issue from my lay perspective, but IMO now that we have MA it seems it is the issue as PCM is more than excellent barring the space issue if there is one.
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post #670 of 1585 Old 04-15-2008, 08:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FilmMixer View Post

Bob.. as far as receiver are concerned, all of them have decoded properly, the display issues notwithstanding. As I mentioned earlier, DTS did notify Denon during Cert, and Denon made the decision to release.

Not quite true. The Onkyo, Integra, and Yamaha receiver problems which produce explosive bangs when decoding DTS-HD MA bitstreamed into them from certain "properly encoded" Blu-Ray discs are, I believe, DTS-HD MA decoder problems specific to those receivers.

See the big "***WARNING***" thread here for details.
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post #671 of 1585 Old 04-15-2008, 08:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Pariseau View Post

Here's the official DTS PDF file on logo usage by hardware licensees:

http://www.dtsonline.com/media/2007/...ensee_v1.2.pdf

I can't find anything in here related to "DTS-HD MA Limited".

It may be something they created specifically for Sony.
--Bob


I think SOny added the limited. from WIKI:

DTS-HD Master Audio is selected as an optional surround sound format for Blu-ray and HD DVD, where it has been limited to a maximum of 8 discrete channels.

Which really means that DTS and DTS HD are more capable in the amount of channels since they are NOT limited to 8. SO much for DTS MA being the be all end all.
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post #672 of 1585 Old 04-15-2008, 08:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Pariseau View Post

Not quite true. The Onkyo, Integra, and Yamaha receiver problems which produce explosive bangs when decoding DTS-HD MA bitstreamed into them from certain "properly encoded" Blu-Ray discs are, I believe, DTS-HD MA decoder problems specific to those receivers.

See the big "***WARNING***" thread here for details.
--Bob

Bob... You are correct, and I had put that issue out of my mind. I was referring to this issue specifically
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post #673 of 1585 Old 04-15-2008, 09:01 PM
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Personally, I'm not surprised that there are issues with DTS decoding.
Sure, the tech people should be thoroughly versed in all of the different versions that DTS has decided to spawn, but how long are CE companies expected to delay product release for a codec that has such a miniscule market share.
I'm willing to bet that other than Filmmixer and a small handful of professionals, virtually no one on this board was aware of these permutations or could tell the difference between them.

You have to wonder why Dolby labs never has these issues and is always ready from the get-go with their codecs while DTS brings up the rear months behind any reasonable deliverable date.

Perhaps if DTS spent more resources on getting their codecs ready for market, working with partner companies to get their product functioning rather than convincing studios to issue movies with soundtracks that no one can decode, we wouldn't have these ass-backward situations.

 

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post #674 of 1585 Old 04-15-2008, 09:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Milt99 View Post

Personally, I'm not surprised that there are issues with DTS decoding.
Sure, the tech people should be thoroughly versed in all of the different versions that DTS has decided to spawn, but how long are CE companies expected to delay product release for a codec that has such a miniscule market share.
I'm willing to bet that other than Filmmixer and a small handful of professionals, virtually no one on this board was aware of these permutations or could tell the difference between them.

You have to wonder why Dolby labs never has these issues and is always ready from the get-go with their codecs while DTS brings up the rear months behind any reasonable deliverable date.

Perhaps if DTS spent more resources on getting their codecs ready for market, working with partner companies to get their product functioning rather than convincing studios to issue movies with soundtracks that no one can decode, we wouldn't have these ass-backward situations.

Interesting you bring this up and I must say some AVS members did call this as possibly happening. Some said there might be an issue with 7.1 discs.
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post #675 of 1585 Old 04-15-2008, 09:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Milt99 View Post

Personally, I'm not surprised that there are issues with DTS decoding.
Sure, the tech people should be thoroughly versed in all of the different versions that DTS has decided to spawn, but how long are CE companies expected to delay product release for a codec that has such a miniscule market share.
I'm willing to bet that other than Filmmixer and a small handful of professionals, virtually no one on this board was aware of these permutations or could tell the difference between them.

You have to wonder why Dolby labs never has these issues and is always ready from the get-go with their codecs while DTS brings up the rear months behind any reasonable deliverable date.

Perhaps if DTS spent more resources on getting their codecs ready for market, working with partner companies to get their product functioning rather than convincing studios to issue movies with soundtracks that no one can decode, we wouldn't have these ass-backward situations.

What you are describing is typical DTS. Funny thing is; they provide no advantage over Dolby TrueHD because both are lossless.

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post #676 of 1585 Old 04-15-2008, 09:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hughmc View Post

Interesting you bring this up and I must say some AVS members did call this as possibly happening. Some said there might be an issue with 7.1 discs.

Hugh, I'm little unclear on your post.
Are you saying that there was discussion regarding the several permutations of DTS-MA and potential issues with decoding them all properly?

If so, I take back what I said about no one being aware of these permutations, maybe it was just me

Personally, I really don't care that much about DTS even though I bought the PS3 as a result of the firmware announcement.
My purchase was based on the desire to have a "full-featured" BR player.
I am confident that this issue will be addressed by Sony.
At least we don't have to deal with the Denon BR issues.

 

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post #677 of 1585 Old 04-15-2008, 10:00 PM
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Quick PS3 config question, post firmware 2.3:

Equipment:
-PS3
-Onkyo 875
-HDMI
-5.1

PS3:
Under Settings > Sound Settings > Audio Output Settings > HDMI

(in order to correctly play 7.1 disks on a 5.1 setup...)
Do I select Automatic? Or Manual and uncheck all Linear PCM 7.1 Ch. options?

(if I select Manual...)
What will happen to the two Surround Back channels if listening to a 7.1 DTS-HD MA or TrueHD track? Or a 7.1 Uncompressed PCM track? (ie. Does the PS3 throw away the extra Surround Back channels or mix them into the two remaining Surround channels?)

This may not be the right place for it, but along the same lines...

Onkyo 875:
Under 2.Speaker Setup > 2.Speaker Config

I've set SurrBack to None

(if I select Automatic on PS3...)
What will the Onkyo do with the two Surround Back channels if receiving a 7.1 track from the PS3? (ie. Does the Onkyo throw away the extra Surround Back channels or mix them into the remaining two Surround channels?)
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post #678 of 1585 Old 04-15-2008, 10:11 PM
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You know I'm really glad that I did get my sweet ps3 and match it up with my onkyo tx sr 605. I knew that Sony would come through with the HD DTS-MA upgrade, even though everyone, said that the technology was virtually impossible. :P
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post #679 of 1585 Old 04-15-2008, 10:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FilmMixer View Post

No.. both discs are properly flagged... it is purely a decoder issue.

Who confirmed this? Sony, New line, ??? Or did you confirm it using some professional tool? If none of the primaries has confirmed it I'd like to know more about the science you used to deduce that it is a PS3 problem with 100% certainty.
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post #680 of 1585 Old 04-15-2008, 10:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bytre View Post

OT:


Actually, they frequently do if you look very carefully.. but not for the casual (or experienced) user.

I'd like to know more about this. Are you saying the hash will be different after compressing and decompressing the same file using different compression methods?
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post #681 of 1585 Old 04-15-2008, 10:26 PM
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I have a PS3 with firmware 2.3 and a Denon 3808. I was using Shoot em up to test out the new features and saw, as it seems everyone else has, that it says it's decoding 7.1 master audio but it is only sending 5.1 to my receiver. The 3808 with the way I have it setup is then creating the 7.1 surround. Since I haven't seen an answer I'm assuming I'm not missing any settings but if I am let me know what I need to change in my PS3.
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post #682 of 1585 Old 04-15-2008, 10:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iceperson View Post

Who confirmed this? Sony, New line, ??? Or did you confirm it using some professional tool? If none of the primaries has confirmed it I'd like to know more about the science you used to deduce that it is a PS3 problem with 100% certainty.

Denon had a similar issue.
FilmMixer contacted DTS and Denon... shortly after a firmware was released that fixed the problem.
Now the PS3 is having the issue with the same titles.

No science needed... just common sense.
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post #683 of 1585 Old 04-15-2008, 10:39 PM
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Yes, Denon confirmed the display bug for this specific DTS-HD MA 7.1 mapping (they were aware of it), and subsequently fixed it in a later firmware release. New Line also confirmed it, and was aware of the Denon display bug. The exact same titles are impacted on the PS3, but it's not a display bug in this case.
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post #684 of 1585 Old 04-15-2008, 10:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iceperson View Post

Who confirmed this? Sony, New line, ???

Which part of the statement are you speaking of?

The flagging?

If so, I spoke to New Line and DTS about this when some receivers were improperly reporting the number of input channels... and before the receivers were fixed, they showed a difference on their displays between the logos (rear surrounds) and features (side surrounds), even thought the display was "wrong," which can also be seen in the behavior of the PS3 as it reports differences between the logos and features.

Oh, and I just had a film mastered in 7.1 with 90/side surrounds, and know that the NL logo is done with the 110/surround format.. so I have first hand knowledge of how New Line does 7.1 on most features.


In regards to my summation that it is a decoder issue.. for starters, anyone who has a receiver that decodes DTS-HD/MA can attest that both 7.1 formats can be decoded properly from the same discs the PS3 is having issues with...

So if I know how the discs are authored, and I know that there is software out there that I can properly decode on any number of receivers with content coming out properly of all 4 surround channels, and those same discs properly decode one but not both of the available 7.1 formats on the PS3, it is pretty easy to surmise where the problem lies.
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post #685 of 1585 Old 04-15-2008, 10:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FilmMixer View Post


So if I know how the discs are authored, and I know that there is software out there that I can properly decode on any number of receivers with content coming out properly of all 4 surround channels, and those same discs properly decode one but not both of the available 7.1 formats on the PS3, it is pretty easy to surmise where the problem lies.

That means Sony didn't do all of their homework. There go my worries. Thanks FM.

At least the FW updates are painless. Luckily there are only 2 7.1MA titles I own. And one NL property that really really needs 7.1 is still a ways off.

No harm really. Especially since I've heard Mr&Mrs Smith now.
I wasn't for the lightsaber I would say that SW wouldn't sound as good.

Ridiculous codec tier sig gone. Still AVC/24bit lossless fanboy.

Studio quality tier
Most Major studios>Small Studios>dogs>cats>Warner(the guys that do new movies)
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post #686 of 1585 Old 04-15-2008, 10:51 PM
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Is the 2.3 update available from the XMB yet? Or do I have to download it online and use a thumb drive?

Thanks. I'm at work and cannot wait to get home and try this.
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post #687 of 1585 Old 04-15-2008, 10:56 PM
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Is the 2.3 update available from the XMB yet?

It was there first.
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post #688 of 1585 Old 04-15-2008, 11:42 PM
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Hi all - I received a number of inquiries specifically about a handful of NL titles, so I thought I would help clarify.

The titles in question were encoded with embedded channel remapping coefficients, only present on those few titles. The DTS-HD codec is very flexible and provides a unique way of telling the decoder how to downmix to 5.1, specific to the 7.1 layout used when mixing took place. The goal is to make sure the 5.1 listening experience stays true to the original 7.1 mix. There were a few titles encoded in this unique way – that are perfectly valid (and do sound phenomenal). The issue at hand is specific to the system, hence the "DTS-HD Master Audio | Limited" logo. As to the next logical question, I’ll apologize in advance and say that it is not my place to comment on future PS3 firmware updates.

There are numerous other DTS-HD MA 7.1 titles out there that use standard downmixing coefficients, which do output at 7.1.
I hope this helps and that you enjoy!

Kind regards.

PS- I’m out of town, so I’m jealous you all updated your PS3s before I did ;-)
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post #689 of 1585 Old 04-15-2008, 11:50 PM
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what do you mean system limitation limited?are you saying the ps3 will never do 7.1? thats why sony put limited next to the dts logo? who are you? an insider?

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post #690 of 1585 Old 04-16-2008, 12:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by saprano View Post

what do you mean system limitation limited?are you saying the ps3 will never do 7.1? thats why sony put limited next to the dts logo? who are you? an insider?

He is not saying those New Line titles with embedded channel remapping coefficients will never do DTS MA 7.1 on the PS3. He is not saying the PS3 can only do 5.1 DTS MA. We have verification from forum members who have tested a few non New Line DTS MA 7.1 titles and they work as they should.

Some will blame the PS3 for falling short. Some will blame DTS. Some will blame New Line. IMO it is a two way street or rather an intersection. IMO they all meet in the middle and are all to blame:

The PS3 for not being able to decode the remapping coefficients.

DTS for making them in the first place.

New Line for using them.

I am also sure the defense of one and blame on the other(s) is a certainty.
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