PS3 blu-ray extermely grainy picture - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 32 Old 04-18-2008, 09:56 PM - Thread Starter
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Hey,

I have a PS3 80gb and have some issues with Blu ray playback. I'm playing it on a Panasonic TH-PZ4277U 1080p TV via HDMI. Games play perfectly and are crystal clear. DVDs play fairly well also. However, almost every Blu ray disc that I've tried so far are extremely grainy.

I've tried Michael Clayton, Prison Break, Pirates, and a few others and they are all grainy. In fact believe it or not, I played a Prison Break Blu ray and a Prison Break regular DVD and the DVD was better looking!

I've read the article on film grain and understand the whole deal about how 1080p blows up grain. However, I have a Xbox 360 HD DVD player hooked up to the same TV, same HDMI cable, same settings and the HD DVDs are crystal clear. I've played King Kong and Blades of Glory and both are perfect.

I'm about to call Sony to get a replacement but just wanted to see whether anyone had any ideas of why Blu rays are showing so much grain. I've toggled around many settings including Video NR, Mosquito NR, sharpness, brightness, etc etc and nothing seems to get rid of the grain. I'm planning on getting some movies that are both on HD DVD and Blu ray so that I can do direct comparisons.
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post #2 of 32 Old 04-18-2008, 11:08 PM
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Have you updated your ps3 to the newest firmware? i believe that update is suppose to fix some type of grain issue. Im not positive so try searching for it in this forum. There was a thread about it.
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post #3 of 32 Old 04-19-2008, 01:38 AM
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There's nothing wrong with your setup. The movies/show you listed are all fairly grainy, especially Prison Break. If you see it in HD on TV it'll look the same. Some movies are grainier than others, you just picked some that have more than others.

Try a movie like American Gangster on HD DVD and BD, they should both look identical.

Pics from my TV here and here.
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post #4 of 32 Old 04-19-2008, 01:53 AM
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post #5 of 32 Old 04-19-2008, 09:47 AM
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Blu-ray doesn't blowup grain, it's just maintaning what was already there. Most DVD encode use heavy DNR to ease the encode and it's plastic city!

The last thing you want to do with HD Movie is DNR it... otherwise stay with DVD...

King Kong is a movie almost all shot in Studio with fake CGI BG so it's prone not to be grainy and that why the CG look terrible imho (worst pasting job i've seen in years..)

89+ Blu-ray Disc ;)
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post #6 of 32 Old 04-19-2008, 10:18 AM
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Turn sharpness down.
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post #7 of 32 Old 04-19-2008, 10:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BWDinc View Post

Turn sharpness down.

Yes.
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post #8 of 32 Old 04-19-2008, 10:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chris0 View Post

There's nothing wrong with your setup. The movies/show you listed are all fairly grainy, especially Prison Break. If you see it in HD on TV it'll look the same. Some movies are grainier than others, you just picked some that have more than others.

Try a movie like American Gangster on HD DVD and BD, they should both look identical.


Huh? The BD PQ Tier Thread here has Pirates and Prison Break Season 1 as Tier 0 - highest PQ for demo level.

I've got a Panny 50PZ77U with a PS3 and Pirates/Black Pearl was stunningly clear!

I didn't see any grain.

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post #9 of 32 Old 04-19-2008, 02:41 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks a lot for the replies, yes i am running the latest firmware 2.30 and i was running 2.20 when i tested michael clayton. I will pick up some discs from the Blu ray tier 0 list along with their corresponding HD DVDs so I can assure myself that it's a film issue and not the player.
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post #10 of 32 Old 04-19-2008, 04:44 PM
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You need to run your Panasonic plasma in cinema mode and keep the sharpness turned down. Hopefully you are not running the display in the factory default Vivid mode which produces a very bright but poor quality picture. You may have different picture settings for the different inputs.

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post #11 of 32 Old 04-19-2008, 10:30 PM
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I had the same problem with my Mitsubishi HC1500 DLP projector. In my case it was the brilliant color feature that was introducing a lot of grain in every movie. Turns out it wasn't grain it was digital artifacts caused by brilliant color. It was set at 6 and when I turned it off by setting to 0 all of a sudden my movies were crystal clear. To initially test it to see the effect I paused a movie with a grainy scene(or what I thought was grain) and increased and decreased the setting. You could easily see the artifacts being added and taken away from the paused image.

Your plasma doesn't have brillliant color, but it does have the following which could be adding the grain:

Motion Pattern Noise Reduction
Sub-Pixel Controller
Video Noise Reduction
Digital Cinema Reality

I'm not sure what they do but they sound like they might be digital picture correction features. Try pausing the image and turning these on/off or increase/decrease their setting to see if it makes a difference.

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post #12 of 32 Old 04-20-2008, 12:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by icyfire22 View Post

Hey,

I have a PS3 80gb and have some issues with Blu ray playback. I'm playing it on a Panasonic TH-PZ4277U 1080p TV via HDMI. Games play perfectly and are crystal clear. DVDs play fairly well also. However, almost every Blu ray disc that I've tried so far are extremely grainy.

I've tried Michael Clayton, Prison Break, Pirates, and a few others and they are all grainy. In fact believe it or not, I played a Prison Break Blu ray and a Prison Break regular DVD and the DVD was better looking!

I've read the article on film grain and understand the whole deal about how 1080p blows up grain. However, I have a Xbox 360 HD DVD player hooked up to the same TV, same HDMI cable, same settings and the HD DVDs are crystal clear. I've played King Kong and Blades of Glory and both are perfect.

I'm about to call Sony to get a replacement but just wanted to see whether anyone had any ideas of why Blu rays are showing so much grain. I've toggled around many settings including Video NR, Mosquito NR, sharpness, brightness, etc etc and nothing seems to get rid of the grain. I'm planning on getting some movies that are both on HD DVD and Blu ray so that I can do direct comparisons.

Hmmm..I don't get it maybe it's just me but I don't think Mosquito NR is an option when playing BDs only on DVDs is that option available.
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post #13 of 32 Old 04-20-2008, 04:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nismo604 View Post

Hmmm..I don't get it maybe it's just me but I don't think Mosquito NR is an option when playing BDs only on DVDs is that option available.

Thats true.

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post #14 of 32 Old 04-20-2008, 06:32 AM
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Puzzling. I do think the PS3 can be grainy on BD movies compared to the standalones but assuming your PS3, NR settings and processing are properly set and you've tried all the above, why not try a different HDMI cable? There's been some mention of this on other forums that some HDMI cables perform differently in differing environments. There could be an internal (ie soldering) issue or other lock issue or it could be a synergy thing with the PS3. Why not try another Bd player like the Pioneer 95fd or Panny BD30 and compare them as well?
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post #15 of 32 Old 04-20-2008, 07:41 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nismo604 View Post

Hmmm..I don't get it maybe it's just me but I don't think Mosquito NR is an option when playing BDs only on DVDs is that option available.

I was using that option on my TV settings not the ps3. I will try to change some of the settings and turn the sharpness down. Also, I'll try and find another HDMI cable.
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post #16 of 32 Old 04-20-2008, 09:45 AM
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grain is normal..it is not an issue.

you're trying to fight a problem that isn't a problem.
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post #17 of 32 Old 04-20-2008, 11:17 PM
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What does "extremely grainy" mean? You don't want to see ANY grain?
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post #18 of 32 Old 04-20-2008, 11:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by icyfire22 View Post

Hey,

I have a PS3 80gb and have some issues with Blu ray playback. I'm playing it on a Panasonic TH-PZ4277U 1080p TV via HDMI. Games play perfectly and are crystal clear. DVDs play fairly well also. However, almost every Blu ray disc that I've tried so far are extremely grainy.

I've tried Michael Clayton, Prison Break, Pirates, and a few others and they are all grainy. In fact believe it or not, I played a Prison Break Blu ray and a Prison Break regular DVD and the DVD was better looking!

I've read the article on film grain and understand the whole deal about how 1080p blows up grain. However, I have a Xbox 360 HD DVD player hooked up to the same TV, same HDMI cable, same settings and the HD DVDs are crystal clear. I've played King Kong and Blades of Glory and both are perfect.

I'm about to call Sony to get a replacement but just wanted to see whether anyone had any ideas of why Blu rays are showing so much grain. I've toggled around many settings including Video NR, Mosquito NR, sharpness, brightness, etc etc and nothing seems to get rid of the grain. I'm planning on getting some movies that are both on HD DVD and Blu ray so that I can do direct comparisons.

Oh for God's sake!

*where is my Alka Seltzer?*
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post #19 of 32 Old 04-21-2008, 01:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xylon View Post

Oh for God's sake!

*where is my Alka Seltzer?*

And while we are at it....what about those stoopid black bars!!!!

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post #20 of 32 Old 04-21-2008, 06:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by owl1 View Post

Puzzling. I do think the PS3 can be grainy on BD movies compared to the standalones but assuming your PS3, NR settings and processing are properly set and you've tried all the above, why not try a different HDMI cable? There's been some mention of this on other forums that some HDMI cables perform differently in differing environments. There could be an internal (ie soldering) issue or other lock issue or it could be a synergy thing with the PS3. Why not try another Bd player like the Pioneer 95fd or Panny BD30 and compare them as well?

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post #21 of 32 Old 04-21-2008, 06:11 AM
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Some (me and this guy) don't care for the grain, even once we learn that it is "normal"...it's the 1080 lines showing the natural grain in the film. Alot of the settings mentioned here can help to alleviate the pronounced grain you see, but then it's normal and supposed to be there so you won't get rid of it entirely.
I think it's a bit a of misnomer to call HD/Blu-Ray/HD DVD to proclaim crystal clear when it's clearly not, but then its normal...?

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post #22 of 32 Old 04-21-2008, 06:18 AM
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You would think people have never actually seen a movie in a movie theater.
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post #23 of 32 Old 04-21-2008, 06:50 AM
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Quote:
Some (me and this guy) don't care for the grain, even once we learn that it is "normal"...it's the 1080 lines showing the natural grain in the film. Alot of the settings mentioned here can help to alleviate the pronounced grain you see, but then it's normal and supposed to be there so you won't get rid of it entirely.
I think it's a bit a of misnomer to call HD/Blu-Ray/HD DVD to proclaim crystal clear when it's clearly not, but then its normal...?

Exactly where is high definition promoted as having "no grain", especially when the source is film? Film has grain by its very nature. Therefore, if you don't like grain, you don't like film. Stick to your Discovery HD and stop complaining.
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post #24 of 32 Old 04-21-2008, 06:52 AM
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Originally Posted by BrickTop View Post

You would think people have never actually seen a movie in a movie theater.

Or a good theater that is. Not twenty-four screen mall multiplexes with 16 year olds helming the projectors.

I really need to be picking up Prison Break BTW...
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post #25 of 32 Old 04-21-2008, 07:04 AM
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A good way to differentiate between noise and normal grain is to put on a BD animation, something really clean like Ratatouille and if you still see any artifacting on that disc then you have a problem. On my 125" screen Rat has no discernable grain whatsover.
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post #26 of 32 Old 04-21-2008, 07:39 AM
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Content that has had DNR applied to it actually looses detail and accuracy. Grain is simply an artifact of how images are captured on any given material. Film will always have some level of grain, for example Kodak is still actively refining its filmstocks that have even finer grain structure. It is still there but most folks find it less intrusive and some would interpret it as more HD when it's transfered to BD.

A good studio will clean up a master but will not apply processing like DNR because again you loose detail while you may gain a percieved increase of sharpness but everything begins to look pasty, waxy, and airbrushed.

Pan's Labrynth has some "Light" DNR applied and some folks don't mind it at all. Others claim it's so minimal that for the majority of >current< users they will never notice it. Of course people are progressively going to get bigger screens in their homes and will soon see this foolish manipulation and wonder why everyone looks waxy.
This type of argument is like the one over ten years ago for DVD. Why release in anamorphic Widescreen when the majority of users do not have a widescreen TV?

Thank goodness Anamorphic Widescreen became a standard so we can see the whole image and get better detail when we did buy an HDTV.

When people start making excuses for little distortions and manipulations like this now, one must ask the questions when and how is it too much.

Similiar to the music loudness war. Everything is too damn loud with minimal interesting dynamics thanks to gross over usage of compression techniques and the permitting of excessive clipping which looses audio information.
Give me my Volume knob back!

Besides just about every TV now a days have these "improvement" features then stack them upon already DNRed content and you get a double wammy of waxy.
Give me a clean transfer that is reflective of the original negative and let me be stupid enough to apply DNR myself.

Now if you have post processing turned on in your own video chain, that will make grain look very obnoxious. Too much sharpness applied and DNR will make film grain really stand out, rings and halos are artifacts of these settings which turns grain into a noisy mosqitoe like mess.

Personally I liken grain reduction/elimination to the defacing a painting or say the difference between a print versus the original.
Let's take the Mona Lisa for example. Sure anyone can get a nice poster print of the painting, yet people still actually go see the original. Why? There are numerous reasons, I think though apart from just the prestige of actually seeing it in person, people want to have more "tactile" experience and see first for themselves the hand of the artist.

A good poster will provide lots of detail but not as much as actually seeing the original for yourself. There is still no pratical way to fully recreate a painting to the last brush stroke but with HD it essentially can replicate the original source.
If someone didn't like all those visible brush strokes on the Mona Lisa and removed them you would loose the essence and uniqueness of that painting. It would be nothing more than all the other depthless duplicates.
Proper restoration is a different animal all together.
Don't Panic! Grain is just the nature of film, without it you wouldn't be watching anything in the first place.

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post #27 of 32 Old 04-21-2008, 08:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cadbury8 View Post

i know its asking alot... but i was wondering if you could post a couple of pics to show the difference between grain and video noise. how much "grain" is normal? can you actually tell the difference between grain and noise? i always thought grain had a more constant look whereas noise is just all over the place looking more like snow from a bad OTA signal.

I beleive the OP is mistaing video noise/digital artifacts for grain. When I get home this evening I'll crank up the brilliant color setting on my projector and post pics of video noise and then the same pics with the setting turned off. Yes, video noise does looke like snow, but only on some scenes, on ther scenes it's not noticable at all.

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post #28 of 32 Old 04-21-2008, 10:16 PM
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Rent pixar Cars blu-ray disc or some other cg only film as another suggested.

if you see any kind of noise or grain you will have pinpointed the issue.

also, how far away are you viewing the plasma screen?
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post #29 of 32 Old 04-21-2008, 10:26 PM
 
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You Know,

Perhaps my question of the Panasonic '10A's "DNR" circuit would be more appropriate in this thread...

I find the same thing about these "grainy," "gritty" looking Blu rays; and while some are intentionally this way, I have played with the "DNR" circuit on my Panasonic '10A Blu ray player, switching it ON and OFF when playing back Blu rays and DVDs, and the DVDs actually get a good deal of "noise" and "artifacting" diminished in the background when the DNR is ON...but on Blu rays, this DNR doesn't seem to matter...there seems to be no change from ON or OFF...

It was suggested to me in the thread for the '10A that this DNR circuit should probably be OFF when playing back Blu rays, and I'm beginning to think that reading this thread, as well...is it best for high definition sources to not have ANY DNR applied to them -- even on the source player? Should I just play DVDs with the Noise Reduction on?
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post #30 of 32 Old 04-25-2008, 07:47 PM - Thread Starter
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hey, thanks a lot for everyone's input. I just downloaded some HD trailers from the playstation store (I was away from my ps3 for the past week), 21 and Vantage Point, and both played perfectly with little to no noise. I also changed the settings to cinema mode on my tv and that helped give the picture a more natural feel. I'm guessing my player is not at fault and it's just that each movie is processed differently.
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