Xbox 360 with built-in blu-ray coming soon! - Page 2 - AVS Forum
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post #31 of 115 Old 05-03-2008, 10:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PikachuManZzZ View Post

The other thing is that it's also available. There isn't the shortage of that plagued early Blu-ray releases, and economies of scale are starting to ramp up.

Starting to ramp up... at Sony factories.
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post #32 of 115 Old 05-03-2008, 10:47 AM
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X-BOX time is up. Let the PS3 take over the WORLD in both Home Theater and GAMing!!!!!
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post #33 of 115 Old 05-03-2008, 11:10 AM
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I think PS3 actually needs some games for that to happen.
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post #34 of 115 Old 05-03-2008, 01:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by r1dude57 View Post

I think PS3 actually needs some games for that to happen.

ha ha. That lame argument went south last year. There are more than enough great games for the PS3.
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post #35 of 115 Old 05-03-2008, 01:27 PM
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Wii is killing both!

A Home Theater Enthusiast!
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post #36 of 115 Old 05-03-2008, 03:13 PM - Thread Starter
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IMO it is possible for a built-in blu-ray Xbox 360 to happen, it makes business sense for MS.

The coming holiday season many sees will be a big growth for blu-ray, and it will be good for PS3 and bad for Xbox 360 if it doesn't have blu-ray capabilities. With most games nowadays are published on both PS3 and 360, the blu-ray can be the tie-breaker here.

For the addon part, it is possible, but the HD-DVD addon failed them.

But this only affects the new console buyers or anyone who wants a blu-ray player. I have both PS3 and XBox 360 and don't think I am gonna get a new Xbox 360 just because of blu-ray.
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post #37 of 115 Old 05-03-2008, 03:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mdputnam View Post

As Amir mentioned, it took the Microsoft development team something like 4.7 million lines of code to implement HD-DVD on the 360. If a Blu-ray implementation takes a similar amount of coding, it may be a while before Blu-ray comes out on the XBox.

I could make a cute comment about Microsoft software here but I will say that I generally like their software and avoid that route.

Seriously, the 4.7 lines of code may well include some of the decoding software. This is mostly likely to be the same on Blu-ray since Blu-ray has essentially the same decoders.
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post #38 of 115 Old 05-03-2008, 03:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PikachuManZzZ View Post

That's what I'm thinking as well. It seems inevitable to me that all of these consoles are going to have a redesign somewhere along the line, in order to keep sales momentum up and possibly drive down costs. Think the PS1 --> PSOne redesign, or the PS2 --> slimline release. I don't think there's a question as to if the 360 will see a similar redesign, but the question is when.

Note that we are already 3 years into the 360's lifetime (out of a usual console cycle of 4 years). The time for them to make some new SKUs is getting closer (and I'm not talking about "silent" additions like HDMI on the premiums).

So, anyway, let me look more onto the feasibility of adding blu-ray:

It's cheap (relatively). Much of the cost of blu-ray players comes in with the processing demands, not the drive itself. Indeed, Lite-on (the company allegedly manufacturing these drives for Microsoft) have internal drives that retail for $129. The cost-to-produce (excluding markup, distribution, support, packaging costs, etc) would be significantly lower, especially if it's stripped down to a barebones OEM for a console release.

Here's the link here in anyone is interested in buying one of those drives:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16827106227

The other thing is that it's also available. There isn't the shortage of that plagued early Blu-ray releases, and economies of scale are starting to ramp up.

The software/processing end of things isn't that much of a barrier, considering they got HD-DVD to work (despite the face it shoehorned on with an add-on.. any new SKU revision would likely have hardware features to assist in processing).

So here I go... my predictions:

Somewhere between now and the end of 2009:
-New 360 SKU with is physically smaller and quieter
-Likely cheaper
-Includes Blu-ray built-in, along with a real HDMI chip (for lossless audio)

That's it. You can quote me on that.

---
I don't see a blu-ray add-on coming, ever. There isn't much point to it from a sales perspective. It might keep current customers from purchasing a PS3, but it does very little to attract new customers. At this stage in the game, Microsoft needs to grow their own userbase, and an add-on drive doesn't do that.

PikachuManZzZ: I completely agree that there will probably be a console redesign at some point; and also agree that (hopefully) by the end of 2009 Vista and the 360 will have native BR support. However, it's too early at this stage of the game to be rumoring that MS will have it done and integrated into a new console. An addon at this point is far off simply because of BR's required use of Java (BD-J), the additional layers of DRM (no native use of AACS), and the audio output problem. They have no native support in Windows and the same problem plague the 360. Granted at this point MS has no choice but to support BR...but you can be sure that there are going to be some strong political plays between Sony, MS, and the BR assoc before there is support.

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post #39 of 115 Old 05-03-2008, 03:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rlsmith View Post

I could make a cute comment about Microsoft software here but I will say that I generally like their software and avoid that route.

Seriously, the 4.7 lines of code may well include some of the decoding software. This is mostly likely to be the same on Blu-ray since Blu-ray has essentially the same decoders.

It may be decoding but it's not plug and play:
2- If you think 4.7 million lines of code is a lot for the HD-DVD addon consider what MS would have to do to support BR:
-Vista/MCE/360 would have to add support for BD-J which runs on the Java API platform. MS hates Java and most likely won't support it. This eliminates NATIVE BR support (hence launching an external player to watch BR movies on Windows PC).
-BD+ requires addtional DRM information to keep a coherent DRM chain. HD-DVD used AACS, which is already native in the 360 (and Vista)
-The 360 decodes all advanced codecs into LPCM and then Re-encodes them in DD, DTS, or WMA pro and sends it out over TOSLINK or HDMI. The BDA standard requires all players support LPCM out.
-The 360 lacks the ability to bitstream advanced audio codecs.

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post #40 of 115 Old 05-03-2008, 03:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hughmc View Post

ha ha. That lame argument went south last year. There are more than enough great games for the PS3.

Nowhere near as many as the 360 though

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post #41 of 115 Old 05-03-2008, 11:37 PM
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Micro$oft can lick me. After all the issues with my defective 360 and the crippled add on and then the demise and loss of future titles of HDDVD by the movie studios i'm done with them. This has been one huge waste of time and money and I've learned my lesson the hard way. I will NEVER purchase another Micro$oft product again.
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post #42 of 115 Old 05-04-2008, 12:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eci View Post

Consoles are loss leaders. You did Microsoft a FAVOR by not buying a 2nd console. You are one person. You wouldn't have bought 2 copies of each game for the 360 had you purchased a second 360.

You actually hurt Sony, lol.

Again, as in the past threads what you want and what you think are different than reality.
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post #43 of 115 Old 05-04-2008, 02:08 AM
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And supporting the loss leading philosophy, wouldn't MS prefer I had a second shiny 360 rather then letting me "stoop" to buying a second PS3? This would make me even more likely to think twice when making the choice of which format to purchase when faced with the choice between a PS3 or 360 game.

I think the main point that MS has made clear is that they are in the gaming business with the 360 and at this point the 360 is not positioned to be the be all end all media hub. Not saying they aren't moving in that direction..

Sony however used the PS3 to drive the BR medium, and forgot to put out a single game. :P Well they ported a few, but most are still better on the 360.

I see the 360 as a mature gaming machine and the PS3 as a mature BR player.. Hard to argue this point unless your are a PS3 fanboy!
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post #44 of 115 Old 05-04-2008, 04:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dpmcgarry View Post

Nowhere near as many as the 360 though

What games are you referring to? Halo 3... and Halo 3?
I can play Lost Planet, Bioshock and the upcoming Mass Effect on my $3000 PC with the best graphics.
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post #45 of 115 Old 05-04-2008, 09:50 AM
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Here is a translation of the Chinese Economic Daily News article which spawned the most recent (AFAIK) "rumor". If it's fake, somebody wasted a lot of time on it.

http://translate.google.com/translat...&hl=en&ie=UTF8
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post #46 of 115 Old 05-04-2008, 02:24 PM
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I understand this has gone off topic and I shouldn’t be coming into this thread to add more fire but what’s with this “PS3 has no games” nonsense? Are we going to discredit exclusive games such as Resistance, Motor Storm, Ratchet & Clank and Uncharted? What about titles that are coming out this year such as Resistance 2, Motor Storm 2, Little Big Planet, Metal Gear Solid 4, God of War 3 and Kill Zone 2? I could pick games that I’d want in every game system and it shouldn’t be hard for anybody.

Last Generation People were saying that the XBOX had no games compared to the PS2 but there were a lot of good titles that they were missing out on because of the constant bash of that system.

Even Nintendo’s systems have a lot of good games although all the notable ones are made by Nintendo themselves.




I think the Blu-Ray association would be trilled to have Microsoft including Blu-Ray with the 360 because that means they would be supporting BD-J but as far as Microsoft is concerned, that would be a big embarrassment and they want to sell movies off Live so why would they include something that would be competing against their service? The only benefit this would have for Microsoft is that it would take away some of the PS3’s sales which is why a lot of people are praying that Microsoft include it but I expect the PS3 to be 299 this year and I don’t think Microsoft is willing to match that price.

Still, Microsoft is in a very critical situation right now because of the PS3’s inclusion of Blu-Ray so who knows what they’ll have to do to compete.


First there were rumors that Sony is helping Microsoft add Blu-Ray, and then there were rumors of Lite-On helping Microsoft. Maybe in 2 months their will be rumors of Samsung helping Microsoft.
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post #47 of 115 Old 05-04-2008, 03:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Paulo Teixeira View Post

The only benefit this would have for Microsoft is that it would take away some of the PS3's sales which is why a lot of people are praying that Microsoft include it but I expect the PS3 to be 299 this year and I don't think Microsoft is willing to match that price.

Still, Microsoft is in a very critical situation right now because of the PS3's inclusion of Blu-Ray so who knows what they'll have to do to compete.

I don't agree with that. Looking at this as just being PS3 vs Xbox360 is entirely too limited for what either of these companies have in mind. The ultimate goal here is to transition beyond just the gaming audience, and move into a wider marketplace.

Here's my reasoning: Consider what's been the standard for success for previous generations>.. 100+ million units sold, worldwide (for PS2 and the PS1 before it). Where is Microsoft's sales figures now, almost 3 years since inception? A paltry 18 million, worldwide. While this certainly isn't bad, it's not really good either. Looking around, those sale's aren't going towards the PS3 either, with the Wii is jumping head and tails over both of them.

So, what does it mean? The battle for Microsoft isn't against Playstation, nor can either company keep doing the same things that they have done before. They can release as many Halo4's or Mass Effect 2's as ever, but that fundamentally won't change their position in the marketplace.

Part of the answer lies in things like SingStar, Rockband and The Guitar Hero. Some more lies in the casual online games, like Pixel Junkie and Geometry War. Media Center applications are also another big plus for them, and one that's practically a given with the processing and network power already in the system. Blu-ray is a natural extension of that, since it capitalizes on the public interest already out there.

If Microsoft can put out a system which has all these things at at affordable price point (~$300?), then they will attract an entirely new class of customers. People who may have never considered a 360 before might now be interested.

There's good reason for Microsoft to be looking in this direction, and it has nothing to do with whatever Sony is doing. None of these companies care much about "embarrassment" if it means they can add another 10 or 20 million console sales when all is said and done.
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post #48 of 115 Old 05-04-2008, 04:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by K.L. View Post

What games are you referring to? Halo 3... and Halo 3?
I can play Lost Planet, Bioshock and the upcoming Mass Effect on my $3000 PC with the best graphics.

Good for you...my 360 cost $300 and I played those games when they came out.

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post #49 of 115 Old 05-04-2008, 04:43 PM
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[quote=Paulo Teixeira;13793512]
I think the Blu-Ray association would be trilled to have Microsoft including Blu-Ray with the 360 because that means they would be supporting BD-J but as far as Microsoft is concerned, that would be a big embarrassment and they want to sell movies off Live so why would they include something that would be competing against their service? The only benefit this would have for Microsoft is that it would take away some of the PS3's sales which is why a lot of people are praying that Microsoft include it but I expect the PS3 to be 299 this year and I don't think Microsoft is willing to match that price.

Still, Microsoft is in a very critical situation right now because of the PS3's inclusion of Blu-Ray so who knows what they'll have to do to compete.
QUOTE]

Paulo- I couldn't agree with you more...MS is in a really tight spot beacuse they need to do something...but no matter what they do they're screwed in one way or another. I'm sure they would love to realy on their video DL service, but the internet connections worldwide aren't spot on to support it and I won't pay $5+ for a DRM'd movie...much rather pay my netflix and have bluray to my house...

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post #50 of 115 Old 05-04-2008, 06:59 PM
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The only way i'd like to see bluray on the 360 would be if it handled 1080p appropriately and would decode or bitstream DTS-HD Master Audio, Dolby TrueHD, etc.
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post #51 of 115 Old 05-04-2008, 10:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dpmcgarry View Post

Good for you...my 360 cost $300 and I played those games when they came out.

The point is a few exclusives don't match with your comment "Nowhere near as many as the 360" when PS3 has more exclusive games out this year plus nearly all of third-party games multiplatform. What Microsoft can do is lower the price which they already did in Europe, but this Blu-ray news is against it if true.
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post #52 of 115 Old 05-05-2008, 12:00 AM
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Originally Posted by defboob View Post

The only way i'd like to see bluray on the 360 would be if it handled 1080p appropriately and would decode or bitstream DTS-HD Master Audio, Dolby TrueHD, etc.

They would have to upgrade the HDMI outputs to 1.3 for bitstream.

Patience has its rewards.
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post #53 of 115 Old 05-05-2008, 02:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by K.L. View Post

The point is a few exclusives don't match with your comment "Nowhere near as many as the 360" when PS3 has more exclusive games out this year plus nearly all of third-party games multiplatform. What Microsoft can do is lower the price which they already did in Europe, but this Blu-ray news is against it if true.

Ok that's this year...I was considering the last 3. A quick search on Amazon reveals the 360 has 400+ games, while the PS3 only has 200+. We probably shouldn't get too far off topic though...

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post #54 of 115 Old 05-05-2008, 02:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by defboob View Post

The only way i'd like to see bluray on the 360 would be if it handled 1080p appropriately and would decode or bitstream DTS-HD Master Audio, Dolby TrueHD, etc.

+1...and it won't happen without a hardware change...unless they can really finagle the bagel for routing of audio signals inside the unit via firmware updates, which is pretty unlikely..

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post #55 of 115 Old 05-05-2008, 12:09 PM
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http://www.tomshardware.com/news/xbo...-360,5272.html

still just rumor cause its nothing more than a link to another rumor site.

That said...I am pretty sure we will see a BR option for the 360 soon...

But I have both a 360 and a PS3 and know that there is no way the 360 will make as good a BR player as the PS3. Lack of true HD audio being one reason.

But too the average consumer...I can see it being effective...since most people have no clue why hidef media is as good as it is.

Sony has already pretty much made it clear that above anything else they want BR to succeed...even if it means taking a "loss" in the console market. So I really do not see them being terribly upset with the 360 getting BR is some fashion.

They still get more BR titles sold...which is where the money is.


Not entirely sure how MS would market this...if its included in a new SKU...pricewise its going to be hard to undercut the PS3. I just do not see a BR addon being all that successful in sales...but who knows.
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post #56 of 115 Old 05-05-2008, 12:49 PM
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From the Chinese and Taiwanese articles, it appears to me that this will not be an add-on, and it makes perfect sense that Microsoft would be updating the entire machine at this point in its life-cycle, especially given the problems with the 1st Gen. The "Falcon" updates were just a stop-gap measure in my opinion, and so doesn't preclude this kind of change.

For a whole new box, typical improvements of a "mid-life" redesign would include improved reliability, lower power consumption, reduced production costs, and new features -- the latter two items potentially countering the "cost" and "lack of audio capability" arguments. I don't buy the "Java" or "lines of code" arguments either, there is plenty of existing code for Blu-ray that MS could buy, and Java has been running on MS OSs for 10 years without bringing them to their knees in shame.

My prediction is that it will be priced equal to the PS3 (whatever the PS3 price is at the time) and offer comparable features. Microsoft CAN and MUST do this to stay in the game.
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post #57 of 115 Old 05-05-2008, 12:58 PM
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LOL @ topic
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post #58 of 115 Old 05-05-2008, 05:23 PM
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"As we have stated, we have no plans to introduce a Blu-ray drive for Xbox 360. Games are what drive consumers to purchase game consoles, and we remain focused on providing the largest library of blockbuster games available."

http://www.afterdawn.com/news/archive/13854.cfm
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post #59 of 115 Old 05-05-2008, 05:47 PM
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Exactly, no "Blu-ray drive", as in stand-alone. They've got lawyers writing these releases.
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post #60 of 115 Old 05-05-2008, 06:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hughmc View Post

ha ha. That lame argument went south last year. There are more than enough great games for the PS3.

I own both the 360 and PS3 and there are still very few "great" games for the PS3 and even most of those are not exclusive to the PS3.

Format Neutral
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