PS3 upconversion "debatable" (sez Josh) - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 106 Old 06-09-2008, 05:35 PM - Thread Starter
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In an article about the failure of Blu-Ray to catch on as well as be "up to speed" (e.g., BD-Live on very few, if any, players), Joshua Zyber in Home Theater magazine, when discussing why there is no Blu-Ray player out there that is all that it should or could be, says that though the PS3 has BD-Live (i.e., profile 2.0), its upconversion quality is "debatable."

I've read here that the PS3 is one of the best for SD-DVD upconversion. Since that is one reason I'm thinking of getting one, what is the consensus here re: the PS3's upconversion quality compared to other Blu-Ray players?
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post #2 of 106 Old 06-09-2008, 06:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eweiss View Post

I've read here that the PS3 is one of the best for SD-DVD upconversion. Since that is one reason I'm thinking of getting one, what is the consensus here re: the PS3's upconversion quality compared to other Blu-Ray players?

If that is the case, I'd love to hear which Blu Ray player does better, other than the Denon DVD-3800BD for $1999.

I can think of other devices (i.e. external video processors) that do a better job, and some HD-DVD players (XA2) and SD-DVD players (Oppo 983) that offer outstanding de-interlacing and upscaling, but on the Blu Ray front most of the players use the same handful of available chipsets, which are generally adequate (at best) but do not meet the standards of most folks on this forum.
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post #3 of 106 Old 06-09-2008, 06:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eweiss View Post

In an article about the failure of Blu-Ray to catch on

I'm not sure that quality DVD upconversion is what's keeping the masses away. Availability is. Does this article mention the complete shortage of players on the shelves for the past few months? Most of the Best Buys, Tweeters, etc. in my area have been out of or low on stock for what seems like a really long time, and the next generation of players seems to be taking forever to actually arrive.
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post #4 of 106 Old 06-09-2008, 06:38 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bferr1 View Post

I'm not sure that quality DVD upconversion is what's keeping the masses away. Availability is. Does this article mention the complete shortage of players on the shelves for the past few months? Most of the Best Buys, Tweeters, etc. in my area have been out of or low on stock for what seems like a really long time, and the next generation of players seems to be taking forever to actually arrive.

Joshua mentions several things that have hurt Blu-Ray's acceptance, some the consumers' fault, some the manufacturers' fault. I only focused on the PS3 upconversion question because that's of most immediate importance to me.
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post #5 of 106 Old 06-09-2008, 06:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eweiss View Post

I've read here that the PS3 is one of the best for SD-DVD upconversion. Since that is one reason I'm thinking of getting one, what is the consensus here re: the PS3's upconversion quality compared to other Blu-Ray players?

I believe that when the PS3 was first launched that upconversion wasn't a strong point. With the newer firmware, however, upconversion seems to be fantastic. The PS3 really has been updated incredibly since it was released.
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post #6 of 106 Old 06-09-2008, 07:04 PM
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in chicago, no shortage of blu-ray players..costco has always had about 15 sony 301 not counting ps3 s on shelf
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post #7 of 106 Old 06-09-2008, 08:51 PM
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yea, the PS3 is probably the best upconverter besides the Denon, at least among BD players.

I don't think there's a national shortage of players...quite the opposite in fact. The economic situation is really the biggest issue now. Not many families have $300 to throw around on a Sammy 1400 or Sony S300.
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post #8 of 106 Old 06-10-2008, 03:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eweiss View Post

In an article about the failure of Blu-Ray to catch on as well as be "up to speed" (e.g., BD-Live on very few, if any, players), Joshua Zyber in Home Theater magazine, when discussing why there is no Blu-Ray player out there that is all that it should or could be, says that though the PS3 has BD-Live (i.e., profile 2.0), its upconversion quality is "debatable."

I've read here that the PS3 is one of the best for SD-DVD upconversion. Since that is one reason I'm thinking of getting one, what is the consensus here re: the PS3's upconversion quality compared to other Blu-Ray players?

Please provide a link to the article. I'd be interested in reading all of it.

Thanks
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post #9 of 106 Old 06-10-2008, 04:20 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by MRMOTA View Post

Please provide a link to the article. I'd be interested in reading all of it.

Thanks

I read it in the current issue on sale at Borders Bookstore (and elsewhere, I assume - e.g., B&N). I don't know if it's available on-line. It has a yellow cover:

http://www.hometheatermag.com/
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post #10 of 106 Old 06-10-2008, 04:57 PM
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I always use my A3 for upconverting SD DVDs when watching on my main TV. Just a habit (and before that, my A1). But I was watching "National Treasure" on BD the other day and decided to watch an episode of LOST on DVD. Since I had the PS3 on already, I decided to just pp the disc in and use that.

Eeeewww...

I was under the impression that the PS3 was on par with most of the HD DVD players out there in terms of upconversion. What I saw was blocky and ugly. I couldnt believe it. And it was so obvious to me because Im so used to seeing the upconversion from the HD DVD player that I naturally just expected to see the same picture. I even put my glasses on to make sure it wasnt me.

So I popped the disc in the A3 and it automatically looked better. Just thought I'd share.
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post #11 of 106 Old 06-10-2008, 05:28 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerry Curl View Post

I always use my A3 for upconverting SD DVDs when watching on my main TV. Just a habit (and before that, my A1). But I was watching "National Treasure" on BD the other day and decided to watch an episode of LOST on DVD. Since I had the PS3 on already, I decided to just pp the disc in and use that.

Eeeewww...

I was under the impression that the PS3 was on par with most of the HD DVD players out there in terms of upconversion. What I saw was blocky and ugly. I couldnt believe it. And it was so obvious to me because Im so used to seeing the upconversion from the HD DVD player that I naturally just expected to see the same picture. I even put my glasses on to make sure it wasnt me.

So I popped the disc in the A3 and it automatically looked better. Just thought I'd share.

That contradicts much of what is stated here. What firmware version does your PS3 have? I assume you used HDMI for your PS3, right?
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post #12 of 106 Old 06-10-2008, 05:30 PM
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I think the PS3 upconversion talk is just hype by overenthusiastic owners. Even with the newest firmware it failed all of the Secrets tests, doing worse than $99 Walmart upconverters... 'nuff said.

Vote with your wallet. Don't buy Cinavia-infected Blu-ray Discs! Why pay a premium for pseudo-lossless audio damaged by an intrusive watermark in the audible spectrum?
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post #13 of 106 Old 06-10-2008, 05:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eweiss View Post

That contradicts much of what is stated here. What firmware version does your PS3 have? I assume you used HDMI for your PS3, right?

When you ask for opinions from people, you shouldn't question it when it doesn't say what you want to hear! (please don't respond to that statement)

With that said, All of the HD-DVDs I have (A2,A20,A3,A30) do a very nice job of up-conversion. After latest firmware on the PS3, I would have to say it is at least as good as any HD DVD player (I have) at up-conversion. My 1400, on the other hand is practically non existent

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post #14 of 106 Old 06-10-2008, 08:29 PM
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My PS3 looked like poo, compared to my A30, when I first got it. After updating to 2.35 and switching the RGB range to FULL, they are about equal. The A30 still provides richer and more "HD-ish" color, but, the PS3 seems to edge it out on fine detail and dimensionality, now. So, in my case, it'll just boil down to whichever I feel like using in that department.

I still wouldn't mind getting my hands on an Oppo 983H or one of the upcoming "super-resolution" players.

EDIT: Switched RGB range back to limited and switched output to automatic.
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post #15 of 106 Old 06-10-2008, 09:16 PM
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I would agree with Josh on the upconverting of the PS3. The Oppo 983 does a MUCH better job, but it doesn't play Blu-rays

There isn't one BD player out there that does a great job (that I have seen) with standard DVD playback. There will be an article in next months Home Theater Magazine that covers some BD players.

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post #16 of 106 Old 06-11-2008, 01:15 AM
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I think the PS3 upconversion talk is just hype by overenthusiastic owners. Even with the newest firmware it failed all of the Secrets tests, doing worse than $99 Walmart upconverters... 'nuff said.

There is no "debate". This player fails the Secrets benchmark *miserably*. It is at the bottom of the barrel.

The Secrets tests are not based on opinion or some type of audiophile pseudoscience/religion/conjecture. They're based on an open (published), repeatable testing methodology that has been used to evaluate players and processors as far back as 2000. The PS3 trumpeters have yet to produce any type of objective counter-claim to these benchmarks to support their POV.
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post #17 of 106 Old 06-11-2008, 04:01 AM
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Sorry, but in most cases when I hear from people they set their PS3 to "RGB Full", they immediately disqualify themselves in terms of how seriously their "observations" can be taken.
Either they really know EXACTLY what they're doing (and have a display device that requires "FULL", such as PC-Displays) or they don't know at all, because most TVs and projection devices (at least coming out of the HT field) require "RGB LIMITED" to show the picture as intended.
Furthermore, for DVD and Blu-ray playback, the PS3's output signal should be set to "Y Cb Cr" (since that's the signal the discs are using) and superwhite on "ON" for best results and maximum compatibilty without black crush or something.
The problem is that a tousand people here use a thousand different setup combinations with a thousand different settings. Some people here really know what they're doing and how they have to set the parameters on their equipment to achieve the best possible picture, and some others just don't (no offense intended here!).
So OF COURSE everyone makes different observations and OF COURSE on some setups the PS3 performs well as an upscaling DVD player (when set correctly), and on other settings, NOT set correctly, OF COURSE it produces a rather sh*tty picture.
The fact of the matter is: When connected and set up correctly, the PS3 is indeed one of the best upscaling DVD-players.
I have a Toshiva HD-A30 as well and the two of them are incredibly close to each other when it comes to upscaling a DVD. The picture looks a little "different" on both of them, but in the end they both perform really well!
The only players that might be slightly better are the Toshiba HD-XA2 and the Denon 3930. But even there the difference is small.

@ Axatax: What "Secrets Benchmark" is that? I'm an installer myself, but never heard of that. I know the THX and Joe Kane Test-Pattern Discs and the German "Burosch" test-discs. Altogether they address most of the relevant fields in terms of picture reproduction.
What test patterns does that "Secrets Benchmark" contain and where exactly did the PS3 fail? I'd be very interested in that.

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post #18 of 106 Old 06-11-2008, 04:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Axatax View Post

There is no "debate". This player fails the Secrets benchmark *miserably*. It is at the bottom of the barrel.

The Secrets tests are not based on opinion or some type of audiophile pseudoscience/religion/conjecture. They're based on an open (published), repeatable testing methodology that has been used to evaluate players and processors as far back as 2000. The PS3 trumpeters have yet to produce any type of objective counter-claim to these benchmarks to support their POV.

What was the date of the review? I'm not sticking up for the PS3 but just making sure everybody is on the same page, so to speak. Last I looked the PS3 review was quite old and I don't think Kris did an update before he left. But you are correct, deinterlacing and scaling capabilities can be "measured".

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post #19 of 106 Old 06-11-2008, 05:42 AM
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Originally Posted by PooperScooper View Post

What was the date of the review? I'm not sticking up for the PS3 but just making sure everybody is on the same page, so to speak. Last I looked the PS3 review was quite old and I don't think Kris did an update before he left. But you are correct, deinterlacing and scaling capabilities can be "measured".

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Secrets 2/29/08 PS3 latest firmware View Post

The Sony PS3 continues to have extremely poor results in our SD DVD tests. The fact of the matter is, it just cannot lock onto a high resolution test pattern for any of our cadence tests. This is worse performance than we see with even sub-$50 players at your local big box store.


Vote with your wallet. Don't buy Cinavia-infected Blu-ray Discs! Why pay a premium for pseudo-lossless audio damaged by an intrusive watermark in the audible spectrum?
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post #20 of 106 Old 06-11-2008, 05:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PooperScooper View Post

What was the date of the review? I'm not sticking up for the PS3 but just making sure everybody is on the same page, so to speak. Last I looked the PS3 review was quite old and I don't think Kris did an update before he left. But you are correct, deinterlacing and scaling capabilities can be "measured".

larry

Here is the link with the FW2.1. It still suffers.
"The Sony PS3 continues to have extremely poor results in our SD DVD tests. The fact of the matter is, it just cannot lock onto a high resolution test pattern for any of our cadence tests. This is worse performance than we see with even sub-$50 players at your local big box store. One could argue that the player will probably do just fine with real world content since it probably doesn't have as high detail as our test patterns, but I think that argument would mainly come from those trying to justify their purchase. If I can get nearly every DVD player out there to pass these tests, why won't this one? "
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post #21 of 106 Old 06-11-2008, 05:48 AM
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I'd be comfortable buying a BluRay player if I knew the upconverting was solid. Maybe there's a conspiracy to make SD performance look bad on these players...
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post #22 of 106 Old 06-11-2008, 05:55 AM
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Tests and real world are different. I don't care that it failed some candance tests, all I know is that it puts out a better picture in my eyes than my oppo 980h.
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post #23 of 106 Old 06-11-2008, 05:55 AM
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Just a few days ago I was at a customer's place and replaced his just newly purchased Yamaha HDMI-DVD-Player (around 100,- €) with the PS3 - and the difference was HUGE! I compared it with Star Wars Episode II. At the beginning of chapter 10 or 11 (not quite sure, the scene where Obi Wan enters Dex's Diner) the Yamaha produced VERY UGLY jaggies around the fine edges of the buildings when the camera zooms in - GONE with the PS3 (very good quick-test for scaling)!
As are the jaggies in the sketched menu of the Phil Collins DVD "Finally: The First Farewell Tour" (very good quick-test for de-interlacing).
The Toshiba HD-A30 doesn't perform any better in these two examples.
So stating that the PS3 performs worse than a "50 $ discount player" couln't be farther from true!

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post #24 of 106 Old 06-11-2008, 06:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Axatax View Post

The PS3 trumpeters have yet to produce any type of objective counter-claim to these benchmarks to support their POV.

It scores quite high in the HQV test (if not 100%).

And perhaps you should read this from JEJ at Secrets:

"You need to remember that many of the benchmark tests are for what a player does when the DVD has been encoded incorrectly, in other words, how the player does when there is a problem. Incorrectly encoded material is not the norm. It occurs perhaps only about 1% of the time when you are watching any particular DVD. So, most of the DVD is encoded correctly, then along comes a bad edit, or some other short term issue in the movie. We are testing what the player does when that little problem occurs during the movie. And, I suspect that, most of the time, we don't even notice it when the player does not handle the problem correctly. But, the point of the Benchmark is to help manufacturers in getting all the issues solved, so that we can get the very best performance during a movie, and iron out those last little things."

The test doesn't say how it handles correctly encoded material.
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post #25 of 106 Old 06-11-2008, 06:10 AM
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Originally Posted by lunddal View Post

The test doesn't say how it handles correctly encoded material.

I assume if you are watching Hollywood movies that shouldn't be much of a problem. You'll probably run in to badly encoded material on Bollywood, Anime, Porn and other low budget affairs... then you have worse problem PQ wise than bad edits.
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post #26 of 106 Old 06-11-2008, 06:10 AM
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From posts of owners who owned various BD players include PS3, PS3's upconversion quality is just so so. Players with Reon (Samsung BD-UP5000) or Qdeo (LG BH200) chip consistently produced better upconversion results than PS3. In fact, those players also produce better PQ even on BD movies according to owners. Naturely ppl who own PS3 only will say it's the best ever.
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post #27 of 106 Old 06-11-2008, 07:13 AM
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In fact, those players also produce better PQ even on BD movies according to owners.

In medicine, that's called the placebo effect. Seriously, what scaling/de-interlacing operations are being applied to a 1080p source?
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post #28 of 106 Old 06-11-2008, 07:30 AM
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Originally Posted by bluechunks View Post

In medicine, that's called the placebo effect. Seriously, what scaling/de-interlacing operations are being applied to a 1080p source?

Except that all Blu-ray 30fps sources (including most nature docs and concerts) are 1080i on Blu-ray, in which case the superior deinterlacing of Reon would best a PS3 for 30fps Blu-ray discs. Blu-ray does not support 1080p30 in the spec, only 1080p24 (24fps/film) or 1080i (30fps/video) can be encoded on Blu-ray disc for 1920x1080 resolution. In addition to all 30fps concerts and nature docs being encoded 1080i on Blu-ray, there are even some 24fps movies encoded in 1080i on Blu-ray for whatever the reason. Therefore the gain on certain Blu-ray discs can be very real.

This is one excellent reason to use the "Source Direct" feature of the upcoming Pioneer BDP-51FD and pair it with a Reon-based (or other high-end) deinterlacer. Not only do you get better DVD upconversion, but better performance on 30fps Blu-ray discs. Some examples of 1080i-encoded Blu-ray discs include Nine Inch Nails: Beside You in Time Blu-ray, Nature's Journey Blu-ray, Galapagos Blu-ray, Tony Bennett Blu-ray, Short Circuit Blu-ray, and a ton more.

Vote with your wallet. Don't buy Cinavia-infected Blu-ray Discs! Why pay a premium for pseudo-lossless audio damaged by an intrusive watermark in the audible spectrum?
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post #29 of 106 Old 06-11-2008, 07:53 AM
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I'm pretty darn picky about the real world performance of SD-DVD in my system.
I personally give the PS3 a thumbs up.

I have better scaling DVD players, but the PS3 holds it's own just fine. The difference from decent scaling to truly excellent scaling, just isn't that big for most people.

I watched the last Rambo with it last night, and it was truly excellent by any visual measure you could apply to it.
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post #30 of 106 Old 06-11-2008, 10:33 AM
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i give it a BIG thumbs down. in no way can my ps3 compare to what my xa2 can do. display device is a panasonic 1080p plasma.
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