Official Blu-Ray Player Audio Setup Thread - All Audio Questions Go Here - Page 28 - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #811 of 1706 Old 11-18-2009, 07:06 PM
 
Vive Ardyss's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 143
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by rdclark View Post

The speaker settings only affect the analog multichannel outputs. Period. End of story.

Okay; didn't mean to upset or enrage you -- just trying to figure out how it's all working. Can you just please explain to me why this speaker setup menu only affects analog multichannel outs when for TrueHD, the player must internally decode these formats and send them out over HDMI to a processor? Wouldn't this imply that the player is doing some kind of decoding/work and therefore the speaker settings in that menu would matter?

I had read in an old DMP-BD10A thread on here that someone named "Lee Bailey" claimed those speaker settings are affected for analog and all digital PCM transmissions coming down digital lines (so far)...so, wouldn't this mean the digital transmission of TrueHD as multichannel PCM?

Let's assume what you're saying is so, for a moment -- does that mean the speaker setup menu of the player is ignored (going digital HDMI connection like I'm using) and my receiver is simply "seeing" the raw LPCM stream from the player, which it then processes through its "Multichannel" listening mode? Do I have this right? So, speaker delays, levels, bass management, etc. is all handled by the receiver at this point for the incoming LPCM signal, correct? If so, is the player simply automatically "treating" my speakers as LARGE when it's decoding the TrueHD to multichannel PCM, where my receiver then takes over?

I appreciate your continued assistance explaining this to me.

Quote:


You might want to check in the appropriate layer thread, but I suspect here that they're referring to optical digital out, not HDMI. With LPCM, only 2 channels are possible via optical or coax audio outputs. For multichannel LPCM, you must use HDMI.

That makes more sense -- the manual doesn't really make this clear, as it doesn't instruct what happens over an HDMI connection. I understand that only two channels are available for LPCM over the legacy optical/coax outputs, which makes sense in terms of what the manual is saying.

See, what's confusing here is that the Panasonic's manual doesn't say anything about a "multichannel signal" being output over HDMI from the player when you select "PCM" for the TrueHD/DTS-HD output -- it (apparently from what you've said above) only covers PCM over coax/optical. Does Panasonic assume that everyone using this player would have known that only multichannel PCM can be sent over HDMI?
Vive Ardyss is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #812 of 1706 Old 11-18-2009, 07:09 PM
 
Vive Ardyss's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 143
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by jmpage2 View Post

As others have told you, it doesn't matter.

So, then what is the receiver "seeing" when these signals come over...just the "raw" decoded LPCM signal? And the receiver processes them from there, via its "Multichannel" listening mode?
Vive Ardyss is offline  
post #813 of 1706 Old 11-18-2009, 09:27 PM
AVS Special Member
 
rdclark's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Philadelphia Vicinity
Posts: 4,181
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 33 Post(s)
Liked: 204
Quote:


Can you just please explain to me why this speaker setup menu only affects analog multichannel outs when for TrueHD, the player must internally decode these formats and send them out over HDMI to a processor? Wouldn't this imply that the player is doing some kind of decoding/work and therefore the speaker settings in that menu would matter?

It implies that most AVRs cannot apply their own speaker settings to their own analog inputs, because to do so would require re-digitizing the signal, a high-end feature most mass-market receivers lack. That's why players with analog multichannel outputs have their own settings; otherwise there would be no way to set crossover frequencies or speaker timings for the analog MCH signal at all.

AVRs DO apply their processing to digital inputs, including HDMI. If the player's settings affected the HDMI input, you would end up processing the signal twice, once in the player and again in the AVR.


Quote:


I had read in an old DMP-BD10A thread on here that someone named "Lee Bailey" claimed those speaker settings are affected for analog and all digital PCM transmissions coming down digital lines (so far)...so, wouldn't this mean the digital transmission of TrueHD as multichannel PCM?

Not the case.

Quote:


Let's assume what you're saying is so, for a moment -- does that mean the speaker setup menu of the player is ignored (going digital HDMI connection like I'm using) and my receiver is simply "seeing" the raw LPCM stream from the player, which it then processes through its "Multichannel" listening mode?

Yes. You have asked this question many times, and it has been answered identically many times. I'm going to ignore you after this.

Quote:


Do I have this right? So, speaker delays, levels, bass management, etc. is all handled by the receiver at this point for the incoming LPCM signal, correct? If so, is the player simply automatically "treating" my speakers as LARGE when it's decoding the TrueHD to multichannel PCM, where my receiver then takes over?

It's not treating your speakers as anything. It doesn't even know you have speakers. It doesn't know what speakers are. It lives in a universe where there are no such things as speakers.

Wide Awake

on the Edge

of the World

 

rdclark is offline  
post #814 of 1706 Old 11-18-2009, 10:01 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
jmpage2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 10,053
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Liked: 77
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vive Ardyss View Post

So, then what is the receiver "seeing" when these signals come over...just the "raw" decoded LPCM signal? And the receiver processes them from there, via its "Multichannel" listening mode?

As you have been told repeatedly, the receiver isn't seeing anything, it simply picks up analog signal on the analog inputs and amplifiers them. It doesn't know your BD player from a toaster oven at that point.

The only exception to this are AVRs that convert the analog signal back into digital for further processing, which is a feature you don't see on processors or AVRs that are anywhere south of about $3000.
jmpage2 is offline  
post #815 of 1706 Old 11-18-2009, 10:26 PM
 
Vive Ardyss's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 143
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by jmpage2 View Post

As you have been told repeatedly, the receiver isn't seeing anything, it simply picks up analog signal on the analog inputs and amplifiers them. It doesn't know your BD player from a toaster oven at that point.

The only exception to this are AVRs that convert the analog signal back into digital for further processing, which is a feature you don't see on processors or AVRs that are anywhere south of about $3000.

What are you talking about? I asked about the receiver doing anything to digital decoded TrueHD multichannel PCM coming in; I understand that for analog the receiver simply picks up the signal and amplifies it. If it's "not seeing anything" as you say, what I am asking is, what's going on then, it's just amplifying and processing the incoming LPCM?
Vive Ardyss is offline  
post #816 of 1706 Old 11-18-2009, 10:34 PM
 
Vive Ardyss's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 143
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by rdclark View Post

It implies that most AVRs cannot apply their own speaker settings to their own analog inputs, because to do so would require re-digitizing the signal, a high-end feature most mass-market receivers lack. That's why players with analog multichannel outputs have their own settings; otherwise there would be no way to set crossover frequencies or speaker timings for the analog MCH signal at all.

I understand the "dual processing" thing and why the players have their own settings for analog output. What I'm asking is, if codecs like TrueHD are handled internally by the player to be transcoded to multichannel LPCM, why are these "speaker setting" menus in players not active for these internal operations? It would seem to me that whether analog or digital, these menus would affect any signal that's being "handled" by the player internally.

Quote:


AVRs DO apply their processing to digital inputs, including HDMI. If the player's settings affected the HDMI input, you would end up processing the signal twice, once in the player and again in the AVR.

Again, I think there's some confusion here. I understand the different processing points; I understand AVRs process incoming digital signals of course -- but what I am asking is, what do they do with incoming multichannel LPCM that's decoded first by a player and sent over a link like HDMI...these decoded digital signals are processed by an AVR in terms of bass management, distances, level trims, etc., no?

Quote:


Yes. You have asked this question many times, and it has been answered identically many times. I'm going to ignore you after this.

Okay. My questions above are moot then. Try and learn how something works, and get a response like the immediate above. Great.

Quote:


It's not treating your speakers as anything. It doesn't even know you have speakers. It doesn't know what speakers are. It lives in a universe where there are no such things as speakers.

You're obviously missing what I'm trying to ask here, and the sarcastic replies of "a universe without speakers" and "doesn't know your player from a toaster" are evidence of a revolving door syndrome. They're not funny, but at least I tried to get some issues cleared up.
Vive Ardyss is offline  
post #817 of 1706 Old 11-18-2009, 10:38 PM
 
Vive Ardyss's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 143
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by rdclark View Post

Not the case.

Okay -- and by the way, this is exactly what I was asking my question for...because I said it was originally stated by "Mr. Bailey" that early reports were saying that even digital transmissions as PCM were being affected by those speaker setting menus...

That's why I asked the question, because it was originally thought that these menus were affecting the digital transmissions as well. That's where my confusion was coming from and why, as you put it, "I have asked the question(s) many times."
Vive Ardyss is offline  
post #818 of 1706 Old 11-18-2009, 10:52 PM
AVS Special Member
 
BIslander's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 8,598
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 96 Post(s)
Liked: 136
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vive Ardyss View Post

Okay -- and by the way, this is exactly what I was asking my question for...because I said it was originally stated by "Mr. Bailey" that early reports were saying that even digital transmissions as PCM were being affected by those speaker setting menus...

That's why I asked the question, because it was originally thought that these menus were affecting the digital transmissions as well. That's where my confusion was coming from and why, as you put it, "I have asked the question(s) many times."

Nah. You (as Blu Camry SE) were making those claims. Lee Bailey tried working with you, advising that you set the player in whatever fashion worked for you. And, after a bit, he recommended that you call Panasonic and to stop beating a dead horse.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showp...postcount=3008

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showp...postcount=3032

You have been asking these same questions for several years on several forums. Your questions and the answers are always the same. Many people have tried to help you. But, you still do not understand how audio processing works. Please give it up. Get a bitstreaming player and be done with it.
BIslander is online now  
post #819 of 1706 Old 11-19-2009, 07:17 AM
AVS Special Member
 
MaxC's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Durham, NC, USA
Posts: 2,451
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Been out of the loop, and I'm sure this has been asked/answered many times before, but I can't seem to find it and I figured this would get me the fastest answer.

So remember back when a lot of DVDs with DTS encoding would be too hot (by +10dB I believe) that a lot of processors came out with DTS movie vs DTS music option that essentially added or subtracted 10dB from one or the other?

Well my question is how do the new BD and HD-DVD DTS encoded movies run? Is this an option I need to now turn off if I had them on my processor? I finally hooked up a BD player to my upstairs HT room...for the last 2 years we have been watching movies downstairs with the birth of our daughter, since her room is adjacent to the HT room, and our system downstairs is currently minus a sub after the Hsu amp died on us.

Now that I have my PS3 up there, I tried some movies that only had DTS (I believe a Pixar one) and the bass seemed a bit lacking, hence the question. I am still passing the sound via optical output, not HDMI.
MaxC is offline  
post #820 of 1706 Old 11-19-2009, 08:34 AM
AVS Special Member
 
shadowrage's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 3,780
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
You can't pass the new DTS codec over optical, but you should be getting legacy DTS over the optical connection.
Which movie was it? It could just be light on LFE. Wall-E doesn't pack much in the .1 channel.
Since your getting "Classic" DTS, you might want to try treating it the same way would any other DTS track and see what results you get.

I remember reading something in the hardware thread about specific components needing an offset of some sort. Usually as long as the dialog isn't soft you should be good to go.

DTS-MA and TrueHD mostly sound the same, DTS-MA is a little hot sometimes, TrueHD is dialnormed sometimes

Ridiculous codec tier sig gone. Still AVC/24bit lossless fanboy.

Studio quality tier
Most Major studios>Small Studios>dogs>cats>Warner(the guys that do new movies)
shadowrage is offline  
post #821 of 1706 Old 11-19-2009, 09:38 AM
AVS Special Member
 
MaxC's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Durham, NC, USA
Posts: 2,451
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Yeah, I know since I don't have a pre/pro with hdmi inputs I am not using the newest DTS codec, so with the standard 5.1 DTS from a Blu-ray disc, is the LFE behaving the same as a standard DVD with DTS or did they "fix" the BD?

I believe (but not positive) that the movie was Bug's life BD. When compared to how I remember the DVD version, it was lacking some thump. I will definately go back this weekend and compare that and other movies.
MaxC is offline  
post #822 of 1706 Old 11-19-2009, 09:47 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
jmpage2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 10,053
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Liked: 77
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vive Ardyss View Post

What are you talking about? I asked about the receiver doing anything to digital decoded TrueHD multichannel PCM coming in; I understand that for analog the receiver simply picks up the signal and amplifies it. If it's "not seeing anything" as you say, what I am asking is, what's going on then, it's just amplifying and processing the incoming LPCM?

Let me further clarify it. Your original question was whether or not the PCM data from a lossless track is modified by speaker settings for the analog outputs.

The answer is empirically NO!

If you don't LIKE this answer then I recommend you buy a different player or call the manufacturer.

What someone on a forum may or may not have said to you at some point in the past has no bearing on what reality is.

If you think you're hearing things when these settings are changed I would advice you to check in with the medical specialist of your choice.

It simply boggles the mind that you've been banging away on this for years and refusing to acknowledge reality. Don't you have better things to do than re-hash the same question which you don't like the answer to on an obsolete piece of equipment for years?
jmpage2 is offline  
post #823 of 1706 Old 11-19-2009, 12:20 PM
AVS Special Member
 
BIslander's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 8,598
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 96 Post(s)
Liked: 136
Quote:
Originally Posted by MaxC View Post

So remember back when a lot of DVDs with DTS encoding would be too hot (by +10dB I believe) that a lot of processors came out with DTS movie vs DTS music option that essentially added or subtracted 10dB from one or the other?

That was an issue way back in the early days when Dolby and DTS did not handle LFE the same way. DTS fell into line with Dolby a long time ago and this is not an issue at all any more.

Quote:


Well my question is how do the new BD and HD-DVD DTS encoded movies run? Is this an option I need to now turn off if I had them on my processor? I finally hooked up a BD player to my upstairs HT room...for the last 2 years we have been watching movies downstairs with the birth of our daughter, since her room is adjacent to the HT room, and our system downstairs is currently minus a sub after the Hsu amp died on us.

Now that I have my PS3 up there, I tried some movies that only had DTS (I believe a Pixar one) and the bass seemed a bit lacking, hence the question. I am still passing the sound via optical output, not HDMI.

There's nothing new or different about the handling of LFE and bass with the new codecs. And, since you are using an optical output bitstreamed to your receiver, you are only getting legacy DD 5.1 and DTS anyway, not the lossless versions. So, set DTS to work the same as Dolby on your processor and you should be good to go. If you have bass issues, get a calibration disc and an SPL meter and do a system setup.
BIslander is online now  
post #824 of 1706 Old 11-19-2009, 12:42 PM
AVS Special Member
 
MaxC's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Durham, NC, USA
Posts: 2,451
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by BIslander View Post

That was an issue way back in the early days when Dolby and DTS did not handle LFE the same way. DTS fell into line with Dolby a long time ago and this is not an issue at all any more.

There's nothing new or different about the handling of LFE and bass with the new codecs. And, since you are using an optical output bitstreamed to your receiver, you are only getting legacy DD 5.1 and DTS anyway, not the lossless versions. So, set DTS to work the same as Dolby on your processor and you should be good to go. If you have bass issues, get a calibration disc and an SPL meter and do a system setup.

The only bass issue I was having was with DTS from the BD disc. I have a SPL meter and my system was set up properly with my Denon DVD player. The PS3 sounds great with most BD disc but it seemed that some BD DTS discs were on the weak side. My Halo has "DTS movie" and "DTS music" mode. If it turns out the "DTS "movie" mode turns down the LFE 10dB to correct for hot DVDs, I should now be able to turn that off with BD now that they are in line with DD. Hopefully that will fix my issue.
MaxC is offline  
post #825 of 1706 Old 11-21-2009, 06:10 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Selden Ball's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: upstate NY
Posts: 7,739
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 792 Post(s)
Liked: 521
While there may very well be a "standard" for the relative level of the center and LFE channels when compared to the main audio channels, there still will be variations in the level depending on the audio preferences of the production's editors. There's no reason to be surprised or disappointed when their preferences are not the same as yours. It is annoying, though, that some receivers make it awkward to change the relative gain of the center and LFE channels.

Selden

Marantz SR7009/7.1.4/FH+TM/DefTech PM1000/LCR+TM amped
Selden Ball is online now  
post #826 of 1706 Old 11-21-2009, 09:43 AM
Senior Member
 
ShoutingMan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 249
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Liked: 11
I'm sure this has been asked and answered, but I can't find it in the almost 30 pages of discussion

Is there any major downside to using coax digital out from Blu Ray to an older receiver that supports Dolby Digital and DTS only? The first-page FAQ says you can use the digital outs if you don't have HDMI. I understand that is, of course, limited to DD and DTS. But are there Blu Ray discs that don't support DD or DTS output at all? Or could it prevent listening to commentary tracks or bonus materials?

Thanks!
ShoutingMan is offline  
post #827 of 1706 Old 11-21-2009, 02:29 PM
AVS Special Member
 
BIslander's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 8,598
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 96 Post(s)
Liked: 136
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShoutingMan View Post

Is there any major downside to using coax digital out from Blu Ray to an older receiver that supports Dolby Digital and DTS only? The first-page FAQ says you can use the digital outs if you don't have HDMI. I understand that is, of course, limited to DD and DTS. But are there Blu Ray discs that don't support DD or DTS output at all? Or could it prevent listening to commentary tracks or bonus materials?

No problem at all. Lossless TrueHD and dts-MA will be output as legacy codecs your receiver can handle and, since they are less compressed than the versions on DVD, you'll get sound that rivals lossless.
BIslander is online now  
post #828 of 1706 Old 11-23-2009, 10:25 PM
Advanced Member
 
robertrobert's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 934
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 16
Okay, I know this is probably a stupid question but here it goes. If I get a Blu-ray player using an older receiver that can only decode Dolby Digital via coax, no option to decode any of the DTS formats, then what does this mean for me as far as sound options go? I see quite a few BD titles where only DTS is listed but even though these titles must provide some kind of analog output via the coax or maybe not unless HDMI is used. Can I set the Blu-ray player from bitstream to PCM and have my receiver simulate DD 5.1 or will there only be 2 channel stereo or what???

For everything that is good and holy in this world, why the heck can't they provide both DD 5.1 and DTS on the same titles since there is gobs of room. Now they have to have titles only with DTS with DD 5.1 in other languages or no DD 5.1 present at all. You would think they would list both to sell more Blu-rays.

Robert
robertrobert is offline  
post #829 of 1706 Old 11-23-2009, 10:55 PM
AVS Special Member
 
BIslander's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 8,598
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 96 Post(s)
Liked: 136
Quote:
Originally Posted by robertrobert View Post

If I get a Blu-ray player using an older receiver that can only decode Dolby Digital via coax, no option to decode any of the DTS formats, then what does this mean for me as far as sound options go?

If your receiver has 5.1 analog inputs, you can get a player that decodes all formats and has analog outputs. Then the limitations of your receiver won't matter because the player will do the decoding and the digital-analog conversion itself.

If your receiver lacks analog inputs or you get a player without analog outputs, then you will be limited to stereo from any BD with a DTS track. Unlike DVD, where Dolby is a required codec, more than half of all BDs only have DTS tracks. So, you will need to have the player decode the DTS tracks and downmix them to stereo for output over coax. You could then apply ProLogic in your receiver to create matrixed surround sound. It won't be as good as discrete 5.1. But, it's not bad. It's the same kind of surround you get on a VHS. (Remember those?)

Quote:


I see quite a few BD titles where only DTS is listed but even though these titles must provide some kind of analog output via the coax or maybe not unless HDMI is used.

Coax is a digital output, not analog. As noted above, you can have the player decode and downmix to stereo, which can be sent over coax or the red/white analog stereo outputs.

Quote:


Can I set the Blu-ray player from bitstream to PCM and have my receiver simulate DD 5.1 or will there only be 2 channel stereo or what???

Yes. Set the player to PCM. It will decode the track and downmix it to stereo since coax only supports two channels of PCM. Then your receiver can apply a DSP like ProLogic to produce a matrixed 5.1 output.

Quote:


For everything that is good and holy in this world, why the heck can't they provide both DD 5.1 and DTS on the same titles since there is gobs of room. Now they have to have titles only with DTS with DD 5.1 in other languages or no DD 5.1 present at all. You would think they would list both to sell more Blu-rays.

Sorry, but the electronics world has moved on. You are in a very tiny minority of owners who has equipment that can't process DTS. While the discs are large, studios would rather load them up with extras instead of duplicative audio tracks.
BIslander is online now  
post #830 of 1706 Old 11-24-2009, 05:01 PM
Newbie
 
valvestud's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 5
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Hello,

Found some posts that sort of answer the question, but I would like to verify my intended audio set-up. I have an older 5.1 Pioneer Elite VSX-49TX receiver and I want to hook up a soon-to-be purchased LG BD390 Blu-ray player. The video will be direct to my LCD via HDMI, and I'm intending to run discrete audio cables from the player to the inputs on the receiver.

Is there a benefit to this over just using the optical connection that I'm using now with my standard DVD player? I assume the player will decode internally and pass audio that will sound better than my current receiver can process/decode internally.

Thanks!
valvestud is offline  
post #831 of 1706 Old 11-24-2009, 05:05 PM
Advanced Member
 
robertrobert's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 934
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 16
Quote:
Originally Posted by BIslander View Post

If your receiver has 5.1 analog inputs, you can get a player that decodes all formats and has analog outputs. Then the limitations of your receiver won't matter because the player will do the decoding and the digital-analog conversion itself.

If your receiver lacks analog inputs or you get a player without analog outputs, then you will be limited to stereo from any BD with a DTS track. Unlike DVD, where Dolby is a required codec, more than half of all BDs only have DTS tracks. So, you will need to have the player decode the DTS tracks and downmix them to stereo for output over coax. You could then apply ProLogic in your receiver to create matrixed surround sound. It won't be as good as discrete 5.1. But, it's not bad. It's the same kind of surround you get on a VHS. (Remember those?)

Coax is a digital output, not analog. As noted above, you can have the player decode and downmix to stereo, which can be sent over coax or the red/white analog stereo outputs.

Yes. Set the player to PCM. It will decode the track and downmix it to stereo since coax only supports two channels of PCM. Then your receiver can apply a DSP like ProLogic to produce a matrixed 5.1 output.

Sorry, but the electronics world has moved on. You are in a very tiny minority of owners who has equipment that can't process DTS. While the discs are large, studios would rather load them up with extras instead of duplicative audio tracks.


Okay, I think you helped me out a great deal but would like to verify a few things so thanks a bunch for helping me out. My processor is very good, Theta Casablanca I, but unfortuantely doesn't have DTS or 5.1 / 7.1 analog inputs. I am looking to buy this week the Panasonic BD80 which can do all the decoding. I am using a coax for all my SD DVDs and HD DVDs for DD 5.1. So you're saying that if I select DTS in the Blu-ray menu that my very old processor will automatically put that into Prologic or Matrix??? I do have a Matrix mode that doesn't sound too bad even though not clearly as good as DD 5.1. I have one HD DVD title, Pan's Labyrinth, that comes in DTS. I have to set my HD DVD player from bitstream to PCM for my processor to then be able to provide the Matrix simulated 5.1. I'm happy. I guess that I didn't really think about it until you pointed it out now that this movie obviously was probably sending out the DTS out thru my coax when set to PCM. I guess the same will occur on all blu-ray titles that have only DTS??? Someone at work told me that I won't know what I'll be able to listen to when getting DTS only blu-rays and could be 2 channel stereo only. It sounds like you're saying this won't be the case in that I should be able to listen to 5.1 Matrix from the DTS as long as my BD80 is set to PCM. Is this correct for all DTS movies so I won't be listening only to 2 channel stereo???

Thanks,
Robert
robertrobert is offline  
post #832 of 1706 Old 11-24-2009, 05:20 PM
AVS Special Member
 
rdclark's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Philadelphia Vicinity
Posts: 4,181
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 33 Post(s)
Liked: 204
Quote:
Originally Posted by valvestud View Post

Hello,

Found some posts that sort of answer the question, but I would like to verify my intended audio set-up. I have an older 5.1 Pioneer Elite VSX-49TX receiver and I want to hook up a soon-to-be purchased LG BD390 Blu-ray player. The video will be direct to my LCD via HDMI, and I'm intending to run discrete audio cables from the player to the inputs on the receiver.

Is there a benefit to this over just using the optical connection that I'm using now with my standard DVD player? I assume the player will decode internally and pass audio that will sound better than my current receiver can process/decode internally.

The player will internally decode the lossless audio, and send it out via the analog outputs. In theory this will sound better than anything you can get via the optical connection.

In practice, sometimes it does, and sometimes it doesn't. The difference will be subtle (aside from differences in overall level, correctible with the volume control). The exact features of the player's speaker setup -- available crossover frequencies, speaker timing settings, etc. -- will likely be different from those in your AVR, and so will have an effect which may be beneficial, detrimental, or inaudible. And the quality of your speakers themselves will have a great deal to do with how much of a difference you hear.

If you have all the cables you need for both setups, by all means connect both and do some comparisons. If, for whatever reason, one sounds better to you than the other, there's your answer.

Wide Awake

on the Edge

of the World

 

rdclark is offline  
post #833 of 1706 Old 11-24-2009, 05:37 PM
AVS Special Member
 
BIslander's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 8,598
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 96 Post(s)
Liked: 136
robertrobert -

1. On the BD80, set the digital output for DTS to PCM instead of bitstream. The BD80 will then decode the lossless dts-MA into multichannel PCM. Unfortunately, coax and optical are limited to two channels of PCM. So, the player will downmix multiple channels into stereo and that's what gets sent to your receiver.

2. On the BD80, set Downmix to Surround Encoded. The player will then use Dolby Surround encoding to fold a discrete center channnel and a mono surround channel into the stereo mix. (That's how surround sound is done on VHS recordings.)

3. On your receiver, apply ProLogic decoding to extract the center and surround channels from the stereo mix. If your receiver has ProLogic II, that's even better. PLII will also create a subwoofer output and use matrix processing to turn the mono surround signal into stereo as well.

To be clear, you are limited to stereo with DTS sources. But, it's very high quality stereo taken from the lossless source. And, with Dolby Surround encoding, you get discrete channels that can be pulled back out of the stereo mix. It's not the same as discrete 5.1. But, it's not bad.
BIslander is online now  
post #834 of 1706 Old 11-24-2009, 06:37 PM
Advanced Member
 
robertrobert's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 934
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 16
Quote:
Originally Posted by BIslander View Post

robertrobert -

1. On the BD80, set the digital output for DTS to PCM instead of bitstream. The BD80 will then decode the lossless dts-MA into multichannel PCM. Unfortunately, coax and optical are limited to two channels of PCM. So, the player will downmix multiple channels into stereo and that's what gets sent to your receiver.

2. On the BD80, set Downmix to Surround Encoded. The player will then use Dolby Surround encoding to fold a discrete center channnel and a mono surround channel into the stereo mix. (That's how surround sound is done on VHS recordings.)

3. On your receiver, apply ProLogic decoding to extract the center and surround channels from the stereo mix. If your receiver has ProLogic II, that's even better. PLII will also create a subwoofer output and use matrix processing to turn the mono surround signal into stereo as well.

To be clear, you are limited to stereo with DTS sources. But, it's very high quality stereo taken from the lossless source. And, with Dolby Surround encoding, you get discrete channels that can be pulled back out of the stereo mix. It's not the same as discrete 5.1. But, it's not bad.


Thank you so much BIslander for all the details especially with how I need to set my BD80 player when I get it setup in my system. My processor has a Matrix and Special Matrix mode along with Prologic, no Prologic II. Still I like the Matrix mode since it seems to be Prologic II before there actually was Prologic II with it providing the 5 channels and subwoofer output as you described. Like you said, it doesn't sound too bad and surely something I can live with until I upgrade next year.

I sure would like to know if there is a better BR player that I should consider besides the BD80. I like the BD80 from my research with the PQ getting very high scores along with upconverting and reliability. I was going to spring for the OPPO 83 but felt like it was kind of a waste of money until I upgrade my processor. Then I can decide to get that or another one and put the BD80 on my other display. I also liked the BD80 over the BD60 since it has the analog outputs that I might use later. I can't remember what the BD80 can decode over the BD60 but for a little more I figure it was worth it. The BD80 also provides coax and optical while the BD60 only provides optical. I have many more open coax inputs as compared to optical on my processor.

You've been a big help with many not knowing this. I'm so glad I'll be able to get the Matrix sound at least an not just 2 channel stereo. It sounds like I might only get 2 channel stereo if I bought a bottom of the line Blu-ray player.

So do I put the BD80 back to downmix from surround encoded when I use Blu-rays with DD 5.1 that my processor can decode??? I know obviously to put the PCM back to bitstream. Are there any other setting on the BD80 that I should know about?

Thanks again and hope you have a great Thanksgiving!

Robert
robertrobert is offline  
post #835 of 1706 Old 11-24-2009, 07:00 PM
AVS Special Member
 
BIslander's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 8,598
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 96 Post(s)
Liked: 136
Quote:
Originally Posted by robertrobert View Post

So do I put the BD80 back to downmix from surround encoded when I use Blu-rays with DD 5.1 that my processor can decode??? I know obviously to put the PCM back to bitstream. Are there any other setting on the BD80 that I should know about?

The BD80 has separate settings for Dolby and DTS. So, you can set Dolby to bitstream and DTS to PCM and you won't need to change them. With bitstream set for DD 5.1, the downmix setting will be ignored. It only comes into play when downmixing for stereo output.
BIslander is online now  
post #836 of 1706 Old 11-24-2009, 10:56 PM
Advanced Member
 
robertrobert's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 934
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 16
Quote:
Originally Posted by BIslander View Post

The BD80 has separate settings for Dolby and DTS. So, you can set Dolby to bitstream and DTS to PCM and you won't need to change them. With bitstream set for DD 5.1, the downmix setting will be ignored. It only comes into play when downmixing for stereo output.


Wow, great info. I didn't know the BD80 allows both to be set differently, very nice.

I am still a little confused, sorry, about the downmix versus surround encoded. You mentioned earlier that I need to put the BD80 to surround encoded when using DTS so it works properly. Your explanation earlier makes sense why this is needed. You're saying downmix is only really used for stereo output and that it will be ignored when DD is set to bitstream. Does that mean that I should just leave it set to surround encoded for both DTS and DD? Or do I need to change it back to downmix when going from DTS to DD? Maybe there is individual settings for downmix and surround encoded for both DTS and DD on the BD80? Or maybe it is a global setting that I just leave at surround encoded for both DTS and DD?

I'm probably not being very clear but guess I'm just wondering how the BD80 allows setup for downmix and surround encoded settings.

Robert
robertrobert is offline  
post #837 of 1706 Old 11-24-2009, 11:43 PM
AVS Special Member
 
BIslander's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 8,598
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 96 Post(s)
Liked: 136
Quote:
Originally Posted by robertrobert View Post

Does that mean that I should just leave it set to surround encoded for both DTS and DD? Or do I need to change it back to downmix when going from DTS to DD? Maybe there is individual settings for downmix and surround encoded for both DTS and DD on the BD80? Or maybe it is a global setting that I just leave at surround encoded for both DTS and DD?

The downmix setting tells the player what to do when it needs to downmix. This is a global setting and it is not related to how the mutichannel source was originally encoded. So, just set Downmix to Surround Encoded and leave it.

Here's what happens:

You've set the DTS Digital Output to PCM and the player will downmix DTS tracks to stereo using Dolby Surround.

You've set the Dolby Digital Output to bitstream and the player will simply send the encoded DD 5.1 track to your receiver for decoding.
BIslander is online now  
post #838 of 1706 Old 11-25-2009, 09:28 AM
Advanced Member
 
robertrobert's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 934
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 16
BIslander,

Would the Panasonic BD60 work for my application or is the BD80 the better player with settings etc.? It looks identical between the two except the BD80 has 7.1 analog outputs by decoding internally. I'm not sure if the BD60 has a separate bitstream/PCM setting for DD and DTS like you mentioned the BD80 has. Anyway I'm not sure if there is anything else or if the BD80 has better analog sound compared to the BD60.

I went on Bestbuy and it seems that quite a few folks were having errors and sound issues when trying to use the HDMI with the latest sound codecs. I'm not sure if they aren't setting things up right or whether the BD80 has some issues requiring some future firmware update. It seems the scores are high on Amazon.com but not as high as the BD60 but sure that is just due to the lower price.

Robert
robertrobert is offline  
post #839 of 1706 Old 11-25-2009, 02:14 PM
Member
 
Leesrt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 78
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Can anyone post a few BD players that have a discrete 5.1 analog output. My Yamaha receiver doesn't decode but has the discrete inputs.

I've been looking but all I can find just have left/right analog outputs.
Leesrt is offline  
post #840 of 1706 Old 11-25-2009, 02:16 PM
Senior Member
 
Geezer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: SFV, CA
Posts: 395
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by Leesrt View Post

Can anyone post a few BD players that have a discrete 5.1 analog output. My Yamaha receiver doesn't decode but has the discrete inputs.

I've been looking but all I can find just have left/right analog outputs.

My Sony 550 does & I believe the panasonic 55 & 60 does.
Geezer is offline  
Reply Blu-ray Players

Tags
Blu Ray Players , Samsung , Samsung Bd P1600 Blu Ray Player
Gear in this thread - P1600 by PriceGrabber.com

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off