Bluray Player Audio Support Comparison Chart - Page 3 - AVS Forum
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post #61 of 663 Old 07-21-2008, 05:26 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markrubin View Post

Thank You: looks great

I would like to see a load time listed for each player: that has become a big issue for many of us

I was thinking about that myself but that may be hard to collect as it's by user reports and not something documented. I'll look into it.


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post #62 of 663 Old 07-21-2008, 05:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adidino View Post

I was thinking about that myself but that may be hard to collect as it's by user reports and not something documented. I'll look into it.

perhaps we could set up some criteria for members to perform a simple test for load times and post their results, then add the data to the chart
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post #63 of 663 Old 07-21-2008, 05:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cpcat View Post

Sorry if I'm opening an "old sore", but what about the low LFE issue on the Denons? That's a problem that would seem difficult to fix depending on your configuration. Are 3800 owners just ignoring it or just compensating for it somehow?

I too would add my thanks to adidino.

The LFE bug exists but 3800 owners are able to compensate within the audio setup menu itself (shouldn't have to but it's there). Luckily it does not require the capability in the downstream AVR/amp.

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post #64 of 663 Old 07-21-2008, 05:36 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markrubin View Post

perhaps we could set up some criteria for members to perform a simple test for load times and post their results, then add the data to the chart


Sounds like a plan. If some of the owners could post average load time, I can work on adding the data. Please keep it simple...

Model:xyz Avg Load Time: 123 (in seconds. 1min=60 seconds, etc..)


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post #65 of 663 Old 07-21-2008, 05:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markrubin View Post

perhaps we could set up some criteria for members to perform a simple test for load times and post their results, then add the data to the chart

I suggest something for a "typical" BD disc and another load time for a Java-intensive disc. My suggestions for the Java disc would be Ratatouille and the typical disc could be Black Hawk Down.

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post #66 of 663 Old 07-21-2008, 05:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adidino View Post

Sounds like a plan. If some of the owners could post average load time, I can work on adding the data. Please keep it simple...

Model:xyz Avg Load Time: 123 (in seconds. 1min=60 seconds, etc..)

Quote:
Originally Posted by EWL5 View Post

I suggest something for a "typical" BD disc and another load time for a Java-intensive disc. My suggestions for the Java disc would be Ratatouille and the typical disc could be Black Hawk Down.

Both good ideas
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post #67 of 663 Old 07-21-2008, 06:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markrubin View Post

I would like to see a load time listed for each player: that has become a big issue for many of us

Isn't that OT for this thread? Or should we change the thread title to something including the load time?

Load time is a fairly complex factor to measure. You need to show couple of different cases:

Power-on with the disc in.
Power-on without the disc in.
Power-on until disc tray ejects.
Power-on until the disc starts to play.
Load time from put disc in to play.

etc. ...
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post #68 of 663 Old 07-21-2008, 06:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Foxbat121 View Post

Isn't that OT for this thread? Or should we change the thread title to something including the load time.

Good point...perhaps we could change the thread title
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post #69 of 663 Old 07-21-2008, 06:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markrubin View Post

Good point...perhaps we could change the thread title

Good plans.
Tony has done a great job to this point, I hope we don't burn him out with too many things to keep track of.
(if load times are included, need to be clear what load point to measure to, first disc logo?, disc menu?)

to each his own...
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post #70 of 663 Old 07-21-2008, 06:33 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by slogun View Post

Good plans.
Tony has done a great job to this point, I hope we don't burn him out with too many things to keep track of.



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post #71 of 663 Old 07-21-2008, 06:35 AM - Thread Starter
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I don't mind adding the data and to be honest it is a concern for many comparing bluray players (including myself). I just need the data. I've already edited the master speadsheet to include load time data.


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post #72 of 663 Old 07-21-2008, 07:01 AM
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adidino,

WOuld you update the Philips BDP7200 to show that it does bitstream DTS Master and it is available now.

Thanks,

S~

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post #73 of 663 Old 07-21-2008, 07:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EWL5 View Post

The LFE bug exists but 3800 owners are able to compensate within the audio setup menu itself (shouldn't have to but it's there). Luckily it does not require the capability in the downstream AVR/amp.

You can compensate for low LFE in a system with full range speakers by adjusting channel levels in the player, the receiver, or at the sub. But, I was not aware of any way to properly compensate for the LFE bug in a system with small speakers. Is there something in the Denon that allows for that?
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post #74 of 663 Old 07-21-2008, 10:41 AM - Thread Starter
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Anyone hear of the lfe bug with the Sony BDPs1 using the 5.1 analog out?


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post #75 of 663 Old 07-21-2008, 11:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BIslander View Post

You can compensate for low LFE in a system with full range speakers by adjusting channel levels in the player, the receiver, or at the sub. But, I was not aware of any way to properly compensate for the LFE bug in a system with small speakers. Is there something in the Denon that allows for that?

If you are talking about redirected bass from the small speakers, wouldn't that be taken care of by the overall LFE channel level? My current setup in the Denon 3800 goes like this:

FL -5 dB (Large)
FR -5 dB (Large)
C -5 dB (Large)
RL -5 dB (Small)
RR -5 dB (Small)
LFE 0 dB (Crossover at 80Hz)
SW +10dB = OFF

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post #76 of 663 Old 07-21-2008, 12:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EWL5 View Post

If you are talking about redirected bass from the small speakers, wouldn't that be taken care of by the overall LFE channel level? My current setup in the Denon 3800 goes like this:

FL -5 dB (Large)
FR -5 dB (Large)
C -5 dB (Large)
RL -5 dB (Small)
RR -5 dB (Small)
LFE 0 dB (Crossover at 80Hz)
SW +10dB = OFF

That seems fine, except for the crossover at 80. With the LFE bug, bass management has to happen in the receiver, not the player.

That crossover in the player means redirected bass will end up in the LFE channel with a 15db spread from the actual LFE, which is 5db too much. LFE should start out -10db in relation to the other channels. It gets dropped to -15db to make room for the redirected bass. With the LFE bug, it starts out -15db and drops down to -20db for bass management. So, when you boost the channel at the end, redirected bass will be too hot or LFE will be too weak. If you do bass management in a player with the bug, then the relationship between LFE and redirected bass starts out wrong and can't be fixed.

So, turning the crossover off, reducing the other channels by 5db and leaving LFE at 0 means everything will hit the AVR in the proper relationship. Then the receiver will do the bass management and the final subwoofer boost at the end.

At least, I think that's how it will work.
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post #77 of 663 Old 07-21-2008, 12:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BIslander View Post

That seems fine, except for the crossover at 80. With the LFE bug, bass management has to happen in the receiver, not the player.

That crossover in the player means redirected bass will end up in the LFE channel with a 15db spread from the actual LFE, which is 5db too much. LFE should start out -10db in relation to the other channels. It gets dropped to -15db to make room for the redirected bass. With the LFE bug, it starts out -15db and drops down to -20db for bass management. So, when you boost the channel at the end, redirected bass will be too hot or LFE will be too weak. If you do bass management in a player with the bug, then the relationship between LFE and redirected bass starts out wrong and can't be fixed.

So, turning the crossover off, reducing the other channels by 5db and leaving LFE at 0 means everything will hit the AVR in the proper relationship. Then the receiver will do the bass management and the final subwoofer boost at the end.

At least, I think that's how it will work.

In order to disable the crossover, I have two options. I can either force all the speakers to "Large" or turn Source Direct to "On", bypassing any of the Denon's settings and letting the AVR do the work (and hoping the AVR has bass management for the analogs). I've never tried using the source direct option but my Rotel is pretty flexible with the analogs too. However, I do truly believe that an LFE analog bug exists because Denon cannot expect everyone to own an AVR/amp that will have the proper adjustments to the analog connection.

Do not be surprised by the level of flexibility offered in the audio dept by Denon. It has receiver guts that speculators from the Panasonic BD50/Pioneer 51/05/Sony S550 discussion threads wished were in their players!

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post #78 of 663 Old 07-21-2008, 03:04 PM
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With the LFE bug, Turn BM off (all speakers large) in the player, then attenuate all speakers except sub by 5db. That should correct the output from the player. Then, you'll need to do any further BM in the AVR and it should be OK.

As BIslander said, if you do any BM in the player, the LFE/redirected bass will mismatch and you won't be able do correct it downstream.
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post #79 of 663 Old 07-21-2008, 03:36 PM
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That's all well and good for my Rotel but what about countless others who cannot do bass management on the analog connection? The outcry for BM in the player seems to be huge from the other threads.

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post #80 of 663 Old 07-21-2008, 04:08 PM
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Denon needs to fix it and owners should be insistent that they do.
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post #81 of 663 Old 07-21-2008, 04:49 PM
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EWL5 - Is there an LFE problem with analog out of the Denon? I thought the LFE bug was limited to PCM over HDMI.

If the analog is OK, then you can do bass management in the player, set all of the output channels to 0, and boost the SW at the receiver by 15db. If analog has the bug, then there's no fix unless your processor can redigitize the analogs inputs as described in the last couple of posts.

Sorry, but I should have asked how your player was connected to your processor. For some reason I thought it was PCM over HDMI, not analog.
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post #82 of 663 Old 07-21-2008, 05:05 PM
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BIslander, the PM I forwarded you from Bob was focused on a possible "analog LFE bug." My Denon is connected to the Rotel using analog only.

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post #83 of 663 Old 07-21-2008, 05:18 PM
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If it's present over PCM then it's likely there for analogs as well. BM is done in the digital domain.

To really tell what's going on, you need someone who's willing to spend the time to do RTA measurements.

MauneyM did this for the XA2 awhile back. Toshiba finally fixed it in firmware 1.6.
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post #84 of 663 Old 07-21-2008, 05:19 PM - Thread Starter
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Guys - What player are you referring to? I have the same issue with by Sony BDPS1 and Adcom GTP880 pre/pro. I use 5.1 analog outs. (not HDMI) and I get very little bass output. Problem is the Adcom analog multichannel in is strictly analog bypass. No way for me to control channel levels. Any thoughts on this? I'm thinking of just dumping the player but I don't know...


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post #85 of 663 Old 07-21-2008, 05:23 PM
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We're talking about the LFE bug in the Denon 3800.

To answer your other question:

For proper sub channel level, the AVR/processor must have the ability to either boost the sub channel by 10db at its input (if no BM is engaged in the player) or by 15 db (with BM engaged in the player).

This is the way it's designed to work. There's nothing wrong with the BDP-S1's output that I'm aware of. I know the bdp-s300 is fine.

See the first page of this thread:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=748147
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post #86 of 663 Old 07-21-2008, 05:41 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cpcat View Post

We're talking about the LFE bug in the Denon 3800.

To answer your other question:

For proper sub channel level, the AVR/processor must have the ability to either boost the sub channel by 10db at its input (if no BM is engaged in the player) or by 15 db (with BM engaged in the player).

This is the way it's designed to work. There's nothing wrong with the BDP-S1's output that I'm aware of. I know the bdp-s300 is fine.

See the first page of this thread:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=748147

So I guess I'm screwed. I don't have the ability to boost the sub channel on this pre/pro in analog. Unless I boost the sub itself by 10db?


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post #87 of 663 Old 07-21-2008, 05:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adidino View Post

So I guess I'm screwed. I don't have the ability to boost the sub channel on this pre/pro in analog. Unless I boost the sub itself by 10db?

Yes. If you aren't using any BM in the player (all speakers set to Large) then +10db at the sub should do it. You then compensate at other digital inputs by attenuating the sub channel -10db.

If you have any speakers set to Small in the player, you'll need +15db at the sub.
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post #88 of 663 Old 07-21-2008, 06:00 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cpcat View Post

Yes. If you aren't using any BM in the player (all speakers set to Large) then +10db at the sub should do it. You then compensate at other digital inputs by attenuating the sub channel -10db.

If you have any speakers set to Small in the player, you'll need +15db at the sub.


So now we're getting somewhere. The Sony BDPS1 has the option to select small or large speakers. Since the speakers don't handle anything below 80hz, set to small? Then boost the sub volume control +15db. Correct? Now my final question. Boosting the sub +15db will then match the output of the rest of the freq range. Correct? No other calibration needed.


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post #89 of 663 Old 07-21-2008, 06:16 PM
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It should get you very close. I'd probably still double check with an spl meter and either internally generated test tones or something like THX optimizer test tones (on many DVD's: StarWars, Indiana Jones, anything LucasFilm.)

Remember that when using an spl meter to measure LF to set to slow response and c-weighting. Also, most will be less sensitive in the lower ranges. I set my LFE/sub channel to around -2db on the meter relative to the other channels.

Don't forget that after you crank up the sub's gain control you'll need to adjust down accordingly on other digital inputs you may be running through the sub, else you'll bring down the house.
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post #90 of 663 Old 07-21-2008, 06:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cpcat View Post

If it's present over PCM then it's likely there for analogs as well. BM is done in the digital domain.

According to multiple posts in the owner threads, the bug is limited to PCM in the Panasonics (BD10 and BD30). It's harder to tell in the Denon 3800 thread, although a post from thebland quite a ways back said it was a PCM-only issue on that player as well.
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