Bluray Player Audio Support Comparison Chart - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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post #91 of 663 Old 07-21-2008, 06:37 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cpcat View Post

It should get you very close. I'd probably still double check with an spl meter and either internally generated test tones or something like THX optimizer test tones (on many DVD's: StarWars, Indiana Jones, anything LucasFilm.)

Remember that when using an spl meter to measure LF to set to slow response and c-weighting. Also, most will be less sensitive in the lower ranges. I set my LFE/sub channel to around -2db on the meter relative to the other channels.

Don't forget that after you crank up the sub's gain control you'll need to adjust down accordingly on other digital inputs you may be running through the sub, else you'll bring down the house.

Thanks for the help. Bottom line is my Adcom is a joke! I can't wait to make a decision on a replacement pro/pro. The nice thing about an Anthem AVM for example, it has a flexible Analog DSP. You can adjust speaker level, full bass management and it can be customized to the input (in this case, 6 channel analog) while your other input setting remain untouched. The more I think about it, I may go back to an Anthem!


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post #92 of 663 Old 07-21-2008, 06:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BIslander View Post

According to multiple posts in the owner threads, the bug is limited to PCM in the Panasonics (BD10 and BD30). It's harder to tell in the Denon 3800 thread, although a post from thebland quite a ways back said it was a PCM-only issue on that player as well.

I suspect it's both analog and digital on all players. The analog output is derived from the decoded PCM so unless someone actually designed in a patch for the analogs it's hard to see how they'd be correct. If that were the case, and the problem was recognized, why wasn't it corrected? That doesn't make sense to me.


The problem is the actual LFE/LF can't be easily measured accurately so unless someone on the Panny threads has actually done RTA or other more sophisticated measurements it's not confirmed.
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post #93 of 663 Old 07-21-2008, 07:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BIslander View Post

According to multiple posts in the owner threads, the bug is limited to PCM in the Panasonics (BD10 and BD30). It's harder to tell in the Denon 3800 thread, although a post from thebland quite a ways back said it was a PCM-only issue on that player as well.

The problem is Jeff (thebland) is running only HDMI. I had my 3800 connected to an HDMI receiver in the beginning and noted the LFE bug through PCM via HDMI. Now that the player is in its permanent home attached to a Rotel via analog only, I find that the LFE is 5 dB too low compared to the rest of the speakers. I'm going to try "Source Direct" to see if the LFE bug goes away and perform bass management in the receiver.

Guys like adidino don't have the capability to manipulate the audio once it reaches the receiver via analog. That's why I consider this an "LFE analog bug."

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post #94 of 663 Old 07-21-2008, 10:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cpcat View Post

I suspect it's both analog and digital on all players. The analog output is derived from the decoded PCM so unless someone actually designed in a patch for the analogs it's hard to see how they'd be correct. If that were the case, and the problem was recognized, why wasn't it corrected? That doesn't make sense to me.


The problem is the actual LFE/LF can't be easily measured accurately so unless someone on the Panny threads has actually done RTA or other more sophisticated measurements it's not confirmed.

It makes no never mind to me as I don't own any of these players.

But, I spent a fair amount of time in the Panny threads in my search for a player with analog outs. jsmiddleton worked extensively with Panasonic on this issue and I believe it involved a good deal of fairly rigorous measuring and testing. In the end, Panasonic acknowledged the problem and issued a firmware fix for the BD30. So, while I agree intuitively that it makes sense the bug would be present for both the PCM and analog output, the only substantive evidence suggests otherwise.

The Denon 3800 owners have been more casual, making it hard to tell what's really going on with that player. Or, perhaps I just haven't paid close enough attention since I'm not inclined to spend $2,000 on a BD player.
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post #95 of 663 Old 07-22-2008, 03:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BIslander View Post

In the end, Panasonic acknowledged the problem and issued a firmware fix for the BD30. So, while I agree intuitively that it makes sense the bug would be present for both the PCM and analog output, the only substantive evidence suggests otherwise.

.

Were RTA measurments done on both LFE an LF from the analogs before and after the fix? Just curious. MauneyM was able to do this with the XA2 and it really helped confirm the fix.
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=856083
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post #96 of 663 Old 07-22-2008, 05:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cpcat View Post

Were RTA measurments done on both LFE an LF from the analogs before and after the fix? Just curious. MauneyM was able to do this with the XA2 and it really helped confirm the fix.

I don't know the particulars. Yiou may want to PM jsmiddleton4. I'm sure he can fill you in on exactly what measurements were done to confirm the problem and the fix.
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post #97 of 663 Old 07-22-2008, 06:09 AM
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I started a separate thread for disc load speeds:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...8#post14341658

When we get some results, we can get them added to the chart

I borrowed some ideas posted here...Thanks!
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post #98 of 663 Old 07-22-2008, 06:48 PM
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Tony,

Outstanding chart, easy to read and to use for initial comparisons of vital features.

Thanks!

Gman
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post #99 of 663 Old 07-22-2008, 07:54 PM - Thread Starter
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So it turns out Arcam support are a bunch of fools. (I mentioned Adcom in my earlier post in error, sorry) Anyway, I selected 6 channel analog on my Arcam pre/pro and ran THX optimizer. My goal was to test output levels on each channel including the sub so I can determine how low the output of the sub is compared to the other channels. I Pulled out my trusty spl meter... only to discover my left front channel is about +5db higher than the rest of the channels!. My first thought was "this Arcam is a piece of junk. Not only can't I adjust analog levels but they aren't even either!" So just for the hell of it, I pulled up the speaker config menu on the Arcam and tried adjusting the levels while the THX optimizer was running. Much to my surpise, I WAS able to adjust output for each speaker! The amp just doesn't send test tones to each channel while in analog which is the primary reason why I assumed I couldn't adjust them in the first place. Of course Arcam also confirmed this so I accepted that answer.

So now that I discovered I have this ability I just want to confirm that the THX optimizer is pushing out the test tones at 85db reference. Which means I should set the master volume on the pre/pro to -10db and adjust levels until each channel reads 75db on the spl. Correct?

Just need to confirm. I plan to let Adcom support know since they don't have their act together.


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post #100 of 663 Old 07-23-2008, 04:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adidino View Post

So now that I discovered I have this ability I just want to confirm that the THX optimizer is pushing out the test tones at 85db reference. Which means I should set the master volume on the pre/pro to -10db and adjust levels until each channel reads 75db on the spl. Correct?

Just need to confirm. I plan to let Adcom support know since they don't have their act together.

If it's that much off I'd probably double check it with another disc with a THX optimizer track.

THX optimizer only allows adjustment of relative levels i.e. channel level adjustment, not absolute volume adjustment.

I never really worry about overall absolute levels, I just turn it up as much as I want.
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post #101 of 663 Old 07-25-2008, 04:48 AM
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No. Unless your player suffers audio drop out problem which will cause crackling and pops. Bitstream means audio is not touched by player. The player merely read the audio data from disc and transfer over to receiver for processing.
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post #102 of 663 Old 07-25-2008, 05:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Spaulding View Post

I just returned my Samsung 1500 and picked up the Sony S350. There was nothing wrong with the Samsung, I have just always enjoyed Sony DVD and Blu Ray players.

I posted previously that I preferred listening to the legacy Dolby Digital and DTS tracks of Blu Ray discs played on the Samsung. Dolby TrueHD and DTS MasterHD just didn't sound any better to me.

However, the bitstreamed output from my new Sony S350 sounds different than the bitstreamed output I had heard from the Samsung 1500. Is this possible? Am I just imagining a difference or perhaps hearing differences in loudness? Can there be real differences in the quality of the bitstreamed signal among players? I suspect not, but what can you experts tell me?

There is a current issue on some Denon BD players where if you bitstream TrueHD tracks on certain titles, you would only get the lossy DD in the receiver. Affected titles were Batman Begins, V for Vendetta, and Bee Movie. AFAIK, this is isolated to Denon products unless you just happened to be playing one of the above movies on your Samsung.

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post #103 of 663 Old 07-26-2008, 10:41 AM
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will the PS3 send out a 7.1 signal via the optical, with the latest firmware update? I have an older setup which is dependent on DVI, so I cannot use HDMI. anyone know about this?
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post #104 of 663 Old 07-26-2008, 11:25 AM
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7.1 from all capable formats is available via HDMI multichanel PCM on the PS3.

I think the most optical will do is 6.1 via Dolby EX or DTS-ES.
7.1 isn't available via optical from any player as the only formats that will do it are advanced audio.
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post #105 of 663 Old 07-26-2008, 11:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ou8thisSN View Post

will the PS3 send out a 7.1 signal via the optical, with the latest firmware update? I have an older setup which is dependent on DVI, so I cannot use HDMI.

Optical is limited to two channels of PCM and legacy DD and DTS. The PS3 is not a good match for audio unless your processor has HDMI.
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post #106 of 663 Old 07-26-2008, 11:32 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ou8thisSN View Post

will the PS3 send out a 7.1 signal via the optical, with the latest firmware update? I have an older setup which is dependent on DVI, so I cannot use HDMI. anyone know about this?

If you mean Dolby Digital and DTS 7.1 You can.


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post #107 of 663 Old 07-26-2008, 11:56 AM
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DD and DTS are max 6.1 via legacy formats (Dolby EX and DTS-ES). Of these, I believe only DTS-ES has discrete 6.1. Optical can carry only the legacy formats and 2 ch. PCM.

Dolby PLIIx, THX Ultra2 cinema can create 7.1 by matrixing the surround channels into rears but these are examples of post-processing, not a codec for transmission.
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post #108 of 663 Old 08-11-2008, 09:05 PM
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Need to add LG BD300:
http://www.cepro.com/article/lg_bd30...reams_netflix/

to each his own...
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post #109 of 663 Old 08-12-2008, 03:43 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by slogun View Post

Need to add LG BD300:
http://www.cepro.com/article/lg_bd30...reams_netflix/

any other specs available on this unit? Profile, supported dacs, etc..?


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post #110 of 663 Old 08-12-2008, 06:27 AM
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Originally Posted by adidino View Post

any other specs available on this unit? Profile, supported dacs, etc..?

Not too many details yet.
BD Live compliant, able to stream movies from netflix, september launch and price under $500 is about all that's known so far.
http://news.cnet.com/8301-17938_105-10004471-1.html

to each his own...
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post #111 of 663 Old 08-12-2008, 09:55 PM
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Does anyone know what happened to namechamps? He started the original thread, and his last activity was on May 22?

Hope he's okay. He did a tremendous job on the HD DVD players audio thread also.

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post #112 of 663 Old 08-12-2008, 10:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Blasst View Post

Does anyone know what happened to namechamps? He started the original thread, and his last activity was on May 22?
Hope he's okay. He did a tremendous job on the HD DVD players audio thread also.

He had mentioned once that he didn't have a lot of spare time because he was in the military. At best, I suppose he got shipped to an internet-free post. I hope that's the worst of it...

to each his own...
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post #113 of 663 Old 08-13-2008, 08:08 AM
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Important note on the Pioneer BPD-95FD: Using the 5.1 analog output you do not get the full Dolby TrueHD soundtrack.

It appears that for its DACs you get the decoded version of what the Pioneer would spit out its S/PDIF output.

For example if you play a 96/24bit BluRay disc (Dave Matthews & Tim Reynolds: Live at Radio City Music Hall) and select the 96kHz audio track internally the Pioneer still feeds its own DACs at 48kHz.

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post #114 of 663 Old 08-13-2008, 09:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sfogg View Post

Important note on the Pioneer BPD-95FD: Using the 5.1 analog output you do not get the full Dolby TrueHD soundtrack.

It appears that for its DACs you get the decoded version of what the Pioneer would spit out its S/PDIF output.

For example if you play a 96/24bit BluRay disc (Dave Matthews & Tim Reynolds: Live at Radio City Music Hall) and select the 96kHz audio track internally the Pioneer still feeds its own DACs at 48kHz.

Shawn

Do you know if it is the loss-less codec or the hidden lossy DD (track is hidden but used for players that don't support TrueHD).

Maybe they are using a hardware DAC that doesn't support 96kHz (may not even 24bit, but should be at least 18bit).
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post #115 of 663 Old 08-13-2008, 09:41 AM
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"Do you know if it is the loss-less codec or the hidden lossy DD (track is hidden but used for players that don't support TrueHD)."

I do not know for sure. I think it is the loss recompressed version of the original decoded TrueHD track. Basically what goes out the S/PDIF output decoded (again).

"Maybe they are using a hardware DAC that doesn't support 96kHz (may not even 24bit, but should be at least 18bit)."

No, the DACs are 192/24 capable.

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post #116 of 663 Old 08-13-2008, 09:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sfogg View Post

"Do you know if it is the loss-less codec or the hidden lossy DD (track is hidden but used for players that don't support TrueHD)."

I do not know for sure. I think it is the loss recompressed version of the original decoded TrueHD track. Basically what goes out the S/PDIF output decoded (again).

"Maybe they are using a hardware DAC that doesn't support 96kHz (may not even 24bit, but should be at least 18bit)."

No, the DACs are 192/24 capable.

Shawn

I agree is would be the hidden lossy DD sound track. If it was decoding the loss-less version it would just output it to the DAC.
There is one other possibility that the player can't do it's bass management processing at the high rate so down samples it first to allow it analog output processing for bass and speaker selection. (Does that unit offer bass managment?)
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post #117 of 663 Old 08-13-2008, 10:45 AM
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sfogg, I'm curious as to how you're determining the sample rate of whatever is being converted and output over the analog connections.
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post #118 of 663 Old 08-13-2008, 12:50 PM
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"There is one other possibility that the player can't do it's bass management processing at the high rate so down samples it first to allow it analog output processing for bass and speaker selection. (Does that unit offer bass managment?)"

Yes, it has bass management. It might be a DSP resource issue for why they do this. The manual more or less says the analog outputs get a DD soundtrack out of them, not TrueHD.

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post #119 of 663 Old 08-13-2008, 12:53 PM
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"I'm curious as to how you're determining the sample rate of whatever is being converted and output over the analog connections."

It is easy to determine the sampling rate that is feeding a DAC. Measure the frequency of the L/R clock and that is the sampling rate. In the Pioneer you can find the L/R clock on Pin4 of each PCM1738 DAC in it. To get at the DACs you have to remove the drive and mounting bracket though.

In this case I added 3x S/PDIF outputs to the Pioneer that tap into the data feeding the DACs. The DACs are fed at 48kHz no matter what BR disc I played in it including known 96kHz discs.

Shawn
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post #120 of 663 Old 08-13-2008, 01:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sfogg View Post

"I'm curious as to how you're determining the sample rate of whatever is being converted and output over the analog connections."

It is easy to determine the sampling rate that is feeding a DAC. Measure the frequency of the L/R clock and that is the sampling rate. In the Pioneer you can find the L/R clock on Pin4 of each PCM1738 DAC in it. To get at the DACs you have to remove the drive and mounting bracket though.

In this case I added 3x S/PDIF outputs to the Pioneer that tap into the data feeding the DACs. The DACs are fed at 48kHz no matter what BR disc I played in it including known 96kHz discs.

Shawn

Ahh, cool. I figured you were having to get at the guts in some way. Now that I've looked at your webpage I understand why it is that you're messing around in there.
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