Bluray Player Audio Support Comparison Chart - Page 7 - AVS Forum
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post #181 of 663 Old 09-08-2008, 01:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SKoprowski View Post

I kind of agree EWL5. I was at Circuit City the other day and they had a new Sony 350 set up with an Onkyo 606 receiver and full size Klipsch speakers. It was blaring a DTS-HD MA blu-ray demo disc. I thought- "wow that sounds good" only to discover they weren't bitstreaming and it was playing the DTS 1.5mbps core. I switched the 350 to bitstream the audio and the DTS-HD MA light lit up on the Onkyo. I couldn't tell a whole lot of difference at all. I was quite suprised- especially since it was playing on full size speakers all around. I think the difference between DD/DD+ and TrueHD is quite apparent but the difference between DTS-HD MA and the core 1.5mbps DTS is not as great.

DTS did such a good job with the "core" that the high bit-rate wrapper seems to be a textbook case of diminishing returns. This "core/wrapper" idea is great but not at the cost of making people wait for BD players that decode all. Most decoders these days do 1.5 Mbps DTS no problem but I guess DTS felt they would lose the "mine is bigger than yours" battle.

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post #182 of 663 Old 09-08-2008, 03:20 PM
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adidino,

Could you add the Funai (Magnavox, Sylvania, Insignia, Etc.) brand players. They bit stream all formats and are 1.1 profile players. http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1026390
Analog 2.0 Stereo output.
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Built-in decoders for next-generation Dolby Digital Plus and DTS-HD high-resolution surround, plus lossless Dolby TrueHD (2-channel)

The BestBuy.com price on the Insignia branded version is $229.99
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post #183 of 663 Old 09-08-2008, 09:00 PM
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As of August 29, 2008 there is a new Firmware Update for the Sony BDP-S300 Blu Ray Player where it will process True HD Audio and it does several other improvements to the player. It also includes more types of DVD's it will play. You might update the chart about this.
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post #184 of 663 Old 09-09-2008, 03:14 AM - Thread Starter
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I'm working on an updated chart for this weekend.

Is the S300 update confirmed? For some reason I thought it was a typo.


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post #185 of 663 Old 09-09-2008, 03:26 AM
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post #186 of 663 Old 09-09-2008, 10:37 PM
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which player is currently bitstreaming all codecs with no LFE issues and most reliable?
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post #187 of 663 Old 09-09-2008, 11:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by teckademic View Post

which player is currently bitstreaming all codecs with no LFE issues and most reliable?

No Player can have a LFE issue while bitstreaming the audio from the media. If you have a LFE issue during bitstreaming it is your AVR that has the problem.

Logic would say pick the most expensive player that bitstreams and that should be the most reliable. The upcomming $2000 SONY BDP S5000ES player should work for you.
http://www.sonystyle.com/webapp/wcs/...52921665532071

adidino,
You should add this player BDP-S5000ES to the audio chart. It does all auido formats, has 7.1 analog, is Profile 2.0, and should be available Nov 08.
http://www.prnewswire.com/cgi-bin/st...04878411&EDATE=#
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post #188 of 663 Old 09-12-2008, 01:13 PM
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Hopefully simple question:

If one is setup only for 5.1 analog out, and a DB player comes with 7.1 analog out,
is it as simple as not hooking up the extra two outputs? Or is a downmixing setting, etc. needed?
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post #189 of 663 Old 09-12-2008, 01:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mds54 View Post

Hopefully simple question:

If one is setup only for 5.1 analog out, and a DB player comes with 7.1 analog out,
is it as simple as not hooking up the extra two outputs? Or is a downmixing setting, etc. needed?

You would tell your player that you only have 5.1 by setting SB = NONE or something similar. That way, any 7.1 tracks can be downmixed to 5.1.

If you were to connect 5.1 to your receiver from a player that is 7.1 by default, you would automatically lose 2 channels of information from a 7.1 soundtrack. The player needs to be told to downmix.

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post #190 of 663 Old 09-13-2008, 05:12 AM
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I have a Denon non-HDMI receiver I want to continue to use. It is my understanding that I need a BD player capable of internal decoding; and 7.1 analog output.

What audio fomats are most wideley used on new Blu-ray discs?

Is it really important to be able to decode all current audio formats?

Thanks.
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post #191 of 663 Old 09-13-2008, 05:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rkaz View Post

I have a Denon non-HDMI receiver I want to continue to use. It is my understanding that I need a BD player capable of internal decoding; and 7.1 analog output.

What audio fomats are most wideley used on new Blu-ray discs?

Is it really important to be able to decode all current audio formats?

Thanks.

In the beginning, it was mostly PCM followed by DTS-HD MA as a distant second. Now TrueHD and MA have come on strong since the format war ended and new studios have joined. You will want a player that can decode all 3 since I believe they're all equally supported these days. Eventually PCM will be dropped in favor of adding more special features or more language tracks but it's the format most widely decoded by ALL BD players.

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post #192 of 663 Old 09-13-2008, 02:50 PM
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EWL5 -- You are mixing up a signal transmission format (PCM) with the audio encoding formats (into a digital signal). There are 2 methods of transmitting digital audio signals over a HDMI cable. They are PCM (= Pulse Code Modulation) and Bit-Streaming. These have nothing to do with the digital coding of the audio channels on a Hi-Def DVD.

The legacy audio coding formats are Dolby Digital and DTS. Both are called "lossy" formats because they compress the audio signals to save bandwidth so they could fit the audio tracks onto a SD-DVD. With the added capability of the Hi-Def disc formats, Blu-Ray and the defunct HD-DVD, they have more storage space for the improved digital audio formats (with less compression and lower signal information loss). The new "lossless" audio formats are TrueHD and DTS-Master Audio (DTS-MA), which use no compression at all. These are encoded on (some of) the new BD movies HD discs (which format depends on which recording studio makes the BD disc).

There are also two intermediate digital audio formats which, while still "lossy" use less compression and, therefore, loose less audio information. They are known as DD+ (I think that's the right name) and DTS-HD (or DTS-HD HR). These sound better than the old legacy formats, but not as good as TrueHD or DTS-MA.

What the new BD players bring to the market is the ability, within the player, to decode either of these 2 digital lossless audio tracks into 5.1 or 7.1 analog audio channel sound and provide that out of their analog audio outputs. This way, the older AVRs, that don't have HDMI 1.3a capability, can take advantage of the full range, uncompressed, audio information stored on the BD discs, along with the movies (sent directly to a HD display via a HDMI cable).

For owners with full HDMI 1.3a capability in their AVRs, the lossless digital audio (TrueHD or DTS-MA) can be sent to the AVR, via either PCM or Bit-Stream, for decoding (in the AVR) into the 5.1 channel or 7.1 channel analog audio output to their speaker system. Which transmission format to use is up to the owner of the AVR and the capability of that AVR.

NOTE: The Sony PS3 (as a BD player) can only decode the "lossless" audio and transmit it to the AVR using PCM, via it's HDMI output. It can only send the lossy formats using Bit-Streaming. Also, the Optical/Digital outputs of any BD (or HD-DVD) player can only transmit the lossy ("legacy") audio formats (thanks to the paranoia of the movie studios and the resulting limited capability of the interface circuits).

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post #193 of 663 Old 09-15-2008, 06:39 PM
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There are a number of inaccuracies with your post.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CT_Wiebe View Post

EWL5 -- You are mixing up a signal transmission format (PCM) with the audio encoding formats (into a digital signal). There are 2 methods of transmitting digital audio signals over a HDMI cable. They are PCM (= Pulse Code Modulation) and Bit-Streaming. These have nothing to do with the digital coding of the audio channels on a Hi-Def DVD.

All codecs eventually unzip to become raw PCM. Whether it be Dolby or DTS flavor, they are merely zipped forms of PCM. They can be decoded (unzipped) by the player and output to the receiver as PCM or bitstreaming retains the zipped form of the codec so that the receiver unwraps it to PCM once it receives it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CT_Wiebe View Post

The legacy audio coding formats are Dolby Digital and DTS. Both are called "lossy" formats because they compress the audio signals to save bandwidth so they could fit the audio tracks onto a SD-DVD. With the added capability of the Hi-Def disc formats, Blu-Ray and the defunct HD-DVD, they have more storage space for the improved digital audio formats (with less compression and lower signal information loss). The new "lossless" audio formats are TrueHD and DTS-Master Audio (DTS-MA), which use no compression at all. These are encoded on (some of) the new BD movies HD discs (which format depends on which recording studio makes the BD disc).

No compression is false. Even with the lossless audio there is still some compression but the codec is bit for bit identical to the studio master. Remember that the lossless codec (ie. TrueHD or DTS-HD MA) still has to be unzipped into its raw PCM form either in the player or the receiver. Don't forget that some BD movies have raw uncompressed PCM as the lossless track instead of a zipped lossless form (ie. Black Hawk Down)

Quote:
Originally Posted by CT_Wiebe View Post

There are also two intermediate digital audio formats which, while still "lossy" use less compression and, therefore, loose less audio information. They are known as DD+ (I think that's the right name) and DTS-HD (or DTS-HD HR). These sound better than the old legacy formats, but not as good as TrueHD or DTS-MA.

I am fully aware of these formats but thanks for mentioning them as many probably are new to these codecs. I've started a study comparing lossless and lossy soundtracks here:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1066645

Quote:
Originally Posted by CT_Wiebe View Post

NOTE: The Sony PS3 (as a BD player) can only decode the "lossless" audio and transmit it to the AVR using PCM, via it's HDMI output. It can only send the lossy formats using Bit-Streaming.

That is not true. The PS3 can also decode the lossy formats internally and output as PCM over HDMI just the same as it does with the lossless. Lossy tracks from the PS3 are not restricted to bitstreaming.

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post #194 of 663 Old 09-18-2008, 11:53 AM
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Any word on the MVBD-2510 Blu-ray disc player from Memorex?
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post #195 of 663 Old 09-19-2008, 09:44 PM
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On your chart the Sony BDP S550 shows as "Complete" for all formats. Sony's site however says it internally decodes only Dolby TrueHD and bitstreams the DTS HD and DTS MA. Am I misunderstanding something? I am totally confused. Thanks!

Is there a Blue Ray player that Decodes all sound codecs out of the box, has 7.1 analog out that works for all formats and bitstreams 7.1 via HDMI? I don't care about the downloadable content.

From the Sony's site:

Audio Features

* Dolby® : Yes

* Dolby® Digital plus Decoding : Yes

* Dolby® TrueHD Decoding : Yes

* dts® Decoding : Yes

* dts® Output : Yes

* LPCM : Yes (multi channel decoder): Yes (HDMI™ bitstream out)

"Dolby® TrueHD internal decoding

Dolby® TrueHD internal decoding and bitstream output via HDMI™ for the Dolby TrueHD and dts®-HD (Master Audio and High Resolution Audio)"
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post #196 of 663 Old 09-19-2008, 11:33 PM
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The Marantz BD8002 decodes all formats and has 7.1 outputs. The Denon 3800BDCI does TrueHD and dts-MA. I was under the impression that firmware had filled the gap on DTS-HD HRA, although perhaps not. DD+ decoding doesn't matter since it is not used on Blu-ray. Of course, those players cost $2,000.

Sony keeps changing its tune on the S550 and we won't know the real story on dts-MA decoding until it's released. But, it's seeming less likely the player will handle dts-MA. Not at the outset, maybe never.

Pioneer hasn't announced when it will add dts-MA to the 51/05/09 player line.

Panasonic has it for the already discontinued BD50, a player that has 5.1 analog outputs. The yet to be released BD55 will probably have dts-MA decoding and 7.1 analog outputs.

All of these players also bitstream the new codecs.
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post #197 of 663 Old 09-20-2008, 05:03 AM
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Firmware upgrade 4.20 now includes TrueHD.
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post #198 of 663 Old 09-20-2008, 05:41 AM
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Thanks for your answer.
I might just get a new pre-amp that handles all the new codecs and get a less expensive (up to around $600) Blue Ray player that bitstreams them all. The Integra 9.8 is less expensive than those BD players and it has gotten excellent reviews.
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post #199 of 663 Old 09-20-2008, 06:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BIslander View Post

The Marantz BD8002 decodes all formats and has 7.1 outputs. The Denon 3800BDCI does TrueHD and dts-MA. I was under the impression that firmware had filled the gap on DTS-HD HRA, although perhaps not. DD+ decoding doesn't matter since it is not used on Blu-ray. Of course, those players cost $2,000.

Sony keeps changing its tune on the S550 and we won't know the real story on dts-MA decoding until it's released. But, it's seeming less likely the player will handle dts-MA. Not at the outset, maybe never.

Pioneer hasn't announced when it will add dts-MA to the 51/05/09 player line.

Panasonic has it for the already discontinued BD50, a player that has 5.1 analog outputs. The yet to be released BD55 will probably have dts-MA decoding and 7.1 analog outputs.

All of these players also bitstream the new codecs.

I've been trying to get confirmation from the 8002 owner's thread that it too cannot decode DTS-HD HR, just like the Denon 3800. Between FilmMixer, Denon and my own "test", there is no doubt that the 3800 does not decode HR.

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post #200 of 663 Old 09-21-2008, 08:26 AM
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Hi, just checking if this chart is still being updated?
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post #201 of 663 Old 09-21-2008, 08:32 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rogergraham View Post

Hi, just checking if this chart is still being updated?

Yes.. I'm working on an updated chart. Anything you notice that's missing?


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post #202 of 663 Old 09-21-2008, 09:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adidino View Post

Yes.. I'm working on an updated chart. Anything you notice that's missing?

yes. The Philips 7200 bitstreams DTS-Master Audio.

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post #203 of 663 Old 09-21-2008, 09:42 AM
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Originally Posted by teachsac View Post

yes. The Philips 7200 bitstreams DTS-Master Audio.

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Yes, someone else also posted that earlier in this thread.
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post #204 of 663 Old 09-21-2008, 03:26 PM
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Not sure if they have been listed previously, but what about the Panasonic DMP-BD35 and DMP-BD55?

http://www.panasonic.net/pavc/blu-ra...fications.html
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post #205 of 663 Old 09-21-2008, 03:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by slimm View Post

Yes, someone else also posted that earlier in this thread.

Yeah, me post 51 and 72

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post #206 of 663 Old 09-21-2008, 09:09 PM
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why isn't this a sticky?
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post #207 of 663 Old 09-22-2008, 08:31 AM
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BIslander, you may be interested in this post as it is the culmination of all the LFE problems various Denon 3800/Marantz 8002 owners have experienced. Anyone interested in these players may want to give it a read as well:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...0#post14713050

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post #208 of 663 Old 09-23-2008, 10:47 AM
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heads up.. just got the Crutchfield mag in the mail. They said that the Sony BDP-S550 will be $399.99 valid 9/28/08.
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post #209 of 663 Old 09-23-2008, 10:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nate358 View Post

heads up.. just got the Crutchfield mag in the mail. They said that the Sony BDP-S550 will be $399.99 valid 9/28/08.

That's funny. The SonyStyle site has MSRP listed at $499.99 and available 10/13/2008. I've never known Crutchfield to report something that wasn't MSRP for a new item.

http://www.sonystyle.com/webapp/wcs/...52921665368407

Even the Crutchfield site reports otherwise (10/17/2008 availability). Must be a typo in the mag:

http://www.crutchfield.com/app/produ...50&search=s550

Edit: looks like MA decoding may make it in this machine after all. The SonyStyle website said otherwise as recent as last week?

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post #210 of 663 Old 09-23-2008, 10:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EWL5 View Post

Even the Crutchfield site reports otherwise (10/17/2008 availability). Must be a typo in the mag:
http://www.crutchfield.com/app/produ...50&search=s550

Crutchfield also seems to be perpetuating the false info about the S550 decoding DTS-MA:
"built-in audio decoding for Dolby Digital, Dolby Digital Plus, Dolby TrueHD, DTS, DTS-HD, and DTS-HD Master Audio"

to each his own...
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