Official Pioneer Elite BDP-05FD & BDP-51FD Owners Thread / Vs 1.32 DTS-HD MA - Page 2 - AVS Forum
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post #31 of 30732 Old 08-11-2008, 10:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Pariseau View Post

Fortunately that was a link to an older post that still exists.

Check out the collection of links in the Terminology and Technology section of the first post of this thread, and in particular the links on Data Format:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=678260

The specific post I linked to was this one:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...45#post9445345

YCbCr 4:4:4 at 8-bits per component (24 bits per pixel) is the default connection Data Format for HDMI to HDMI connections for all versions of HDMI. HDMI V1.3 devices that support the optional HDMI Deep Color feature (not all V1.3 devices support Deep Color, and some that do don't actually use all the extra bits transmitted over the connection) will typically offer 10-bits per component (30-bits per pixel) and 12-bits per component (36-bits per pixel) as alternative Data Formats.

YCbCr 4:2:2 at 12-bits per component (24 bits per pixel) is available on all versions of HDMI but not all HDMI devices support 4:2:2 connections, and some devices that do support it don't actually use all 12 bits of that.

The Pioneer players offer YCbCr 4:2:2 output, but we don't yet know whether any special processing they might do to take advantage of a Deep Color connection also enhances the output of a 4:2:2 connection.
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post #32 of 30732 Old 08-11-2008, 11:08 AM
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Ruined,
Can you try Star Gate: Continuum?
I was playing it on the Demo FW and when you paused/ff/rew/Chapter Change there would be a severe Lip synch issue.

Also, on the Menu, can you check the Chapters? When I went to the Chapter View It would not show any chapters and there would be an artifact from the menu stuck on the screen until I rebooted the player.

I want to believe it's just the FW that is causing the issue and will hopefully be changed with 1.0 but I want to make sure. I would check but the Disc was a rental and I don't have the 1.0 disc yet.

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post #33 of 30732 Old 08-11-2008, 11:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Majestyk View Post

I think I'm going to have to continue using my trusty Oppo for DVD. I can't imagine having to go back to 3 second layer changes and long loading times. It seems so late 90's/early 2000. I had a couple of Pioneer DVD players years ago that were slower than the rest as well. Hopefully a fimeware upgrade can tweak this a bit but for now I'll only be interested in this player for BD.

How long is the layer change in the Oppo?


Update...I think it's been answered, it was mentioned it is about .5 sec.

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post #34 of 30732 Old 08-11-2008, 11:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CHP_VR View Post

Unfortunately, I don't have the same discs.. I have National Treasure2, Resident Evil (last one), I am Legend, and Pirates of the Carribean (3rd one).. have played all but Pirates...
I have experienced NO hangups, and loading averages about 18-20 seconds. Sorry, I don't have more precise information, truthfully, I've waited so long, I'm just relishing/enjoying the quality of the system.

Using direct source..

These loading times seem to be much faster than the times quoted by Ruined. CHP - can you be more specific about a particular disk and exactly what the start time and end time are in your measurement?
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post #35 of 30732 Old 08-11-2008, 11:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stipeman View Post

These loading times seem to be much faster than the times quoted by Ruined. CHP - can you be more specific about a particular disk and exactly what the start time and end time are in your measurement? Could Kingair be right?

I'm hoping he is right.....Wish he would verify his info......The times don't add up do they?

I do find it hard to believe, like thebland said, that Pioneer would have two sets of HW out there at the same time. But stranger things have happened, maybe the contractual pressure with BB forced them to do something very odd.

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post #36 of 30732 Old 08-11-2008, 11:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thebarnman View Post

How long is the layer change in the Oppo?

DV-980HD = 0 sec
DV-981HD = 0 sec
DV-983HD = .5 sec
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post #37 of 30732 Old 08-11-2008, 11:40 AM
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Does the 51FD have better video quality (assuming HDMI connection) than any of the older Pioneer Blu-ray players?

It was said this unit is a true 3rd generation unit built from the ground up and I'm wondering if there is any real video quality advantages (besides deep color and the special "Pioneer plasma" option) of this unit over the older Pioneer Blu-ray players.

Or maybe the only real difference IS the deep color and special "Pioneer Plasma" option?

There was one post in the "old" thread that crashed stating there was maybe a slight difference overall (that is better) but that's the only indication I have read of this and I'm not sure if that was with the two special options turned on or off.

Also, would this question be better asked when the 51FDs are in more customer's hands?

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post #38 of 30732 Old 08-11-2008, 11:56 AM
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Typically there would be an indication on the outside of the chassis, but that may be nothing more than, "Serial numbers below such and so....", or, "Manufacturing date before such and so..."
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post #39 of 30732 Old 08-11-2008, 12:00 PM
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I just got off the phone with a Pioneer Tech Support Person. He clearly stated (verified a second time) that the demo units sold by Best Buy are the same hardware as the units that are carrying the production software hitting the store shelves shortly. He was very clear about this.

Per Pioneer Tech Support: The Pioneer 51FD production units and demo units carry the same exact hardware. The ONLY difference is the firmware.

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post #40 of 30732 Old 08-11-2008, 12:01 PM
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Don't swing the pendulum too far the other way, folks!

It is also possible that the folks at the Pioneer store don't have accurate information in this specific case.

ETA: Posted as RBOOSTER was posting his results from Tech Support, above. Consider folks, it would be VERY easy for the people at the Pioneer store to get the wrong info in their heads here. They must have been hearing an earful about these "demo" units being sold at Best Buy and of course now they know they've got the "retail" units to sell out of their own store. Issues with the "demo" units were undoubtedly discussed over the past week or so. This could easily have translated in someone's head into the incorrect conclusion that the "demo" units have different hardware. And then others in the store pick up on that as gospel.

That said, I'm also not sure we can be confident Tech Support has the right info either at this point.
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post #41 of 30732 Old 08-11-2008, 12:02 PM
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Thanks rboster,
Seems that it's all a case of the right hand not knowing what the left hand is doing. Or messing up Hardware with Firmware...

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post #42 of 30732 Old 08-11-2008, 12:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thebarnman View Post

I thought the posts were quite interesting...meaning that there was not a lot of fluff in the comments...just mostly a point that was meant to be made and nothing more.

However I was surprised that the confirmation was as quick as it was. That was probably a good thing.

The mods definitely handled this correctly.

I'm also very impressed with how the mods handled this. I do still wish kingair would have stated that he had a source from the beginning...

A different hardware configuration is definitely a positive though. Especially considering how well the bona fide 1.0 units seem to be performing. Only time will tell. Hopefully Chris Walker will chime in with some information on this.

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post #43 of 30732 Old 08-11-2008, 12:07 PM
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Originally Posted by nugga22 View Post

How do you know this?

Because I read what rboster said above!

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post #44 of 30732 Old 08-11-2008, 12:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thebarnman View Post

I'm more concerned about people who have bought these units from Best Buy who don't read these forums.

Ahem...

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post #45 of 30732 Old 08-11-2008, 12:10 PM
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Originally Posted by JoeInNVa View Post

Because I read what rboster said above!

As I noted in my reply....I read the edit as soon as I posted. No need to rub it in.

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post #46 of 30732 Old 08-11-2008, 12:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Pariseau View Post

True, but not relevant. The info came from an official Pioneer retail store, not Best Buy.
--Bob

Doesn't even matter where it came from. It makes no sense and is contradictory to what Chris Walker and common sense has told us about this unit. A Pioneer rep also told me over the phone that I had no warranty, and I don't think that should be quoted as fact going forward, either, as it was disproven in short order.

The idea that Pioneer has two hugely different hardware revisions that are seperated by 2 weeks with the same model number, and will have different firmware going forward for each is ridiculous.

As another poster stated, the Pioneer store was probably trying to make a sale & likely was also pissed at BB for selling early. Or, even more likely they were just clueless.

Vote with your wallet. Don't buy Cinavia-infected Blu-ray Discs! Why pay a premium for pseudo-lossless audio damaged by an intrusive watermark in the audible spectrum?
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post #47 of 30732 Old 08-11-2008, 12:20 PM
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Ok, now maybe we can get back to what this new player can do.


Has anyone had a chance to compare the 51FD to any of the older Pioneer Blu-ray players? I'm hoping there is a real improvement with the video quality even without any of the deep color features or the special "Pioneer Plasma" settings.

Or is it those two features alone that truly make the difference when compared to the older players?

Movies must be OAR, sports and movies must also have 5.1 audio, No EE or NO SALE!
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post #48 of 30732 Old 08-11-2008, 12:24 PM
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It isn't unusual for board designers to make minor revisions in circuit board hardware, even after a product has gone into production. Usually they're minor changes like changing resistor or cap values, or re-routing some traces. It's possible some hardware changes were made after the demo units came off the line, and it's possible some more changes could be made a month into production.

The only way to know for sure is to pull the tops off a few units and find the board revs and compare. IMO.

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post #49 of 30732 Old 08-11-2008, 12:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Robman View Post

kingair sent the mods a PM quoting the "Pioneer South Coast Plaza store" as a source (phone: 714-540-8000). I just called the store and they said that the demo units are not the same hardware as the full retail units. They said they have heard about demo units not performing properly.

Is it not just possible that 'hardware' in this context actually refers to 'software' (as in firmware)?
It seems very unlikely that Pioneer would have fundamentaly changed the hardware platform in between two production runs.
We'll only know for sure when either someone who is close to Pioneers engineering dept. (Walkamo?) clarifies this or when we are able to compare pictures of 'what is under the hood' of the 'demo' versus the 'retail' model.
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post #50 of 30732 Old 08-11-2008, 12:27 PM
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Will the real SlimShady please stand up, please stand up?

This is getting bad.
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post #51 of 30732 Old 08-11-2008, 12:28 PM
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The release of these players has definitely taken on a circus like atmosphere, and it just keeps getting more and more out there...
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post #52 of 30732 Old 08-11-2008, 12:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Pariseau View Post

Don't swing the pendulum too far the other way, folks!

It is also possible that the folks at the Pioneer store don't have accurate information in this specific case.

ETA: Posted as RBOOSTER was posting his results from Tech Support, above. Consider folks, it would be VERY easy for the people at the Pioneer store to get the wrong info in their heads here. They must have been hearing an earful about these "demo" units being sold at Best Buy and of course now they know they've got the "retail" units to sell out of their own store. Issues with the "demo" units were undoubtedly discussed over the past week or so. This could easily have translated in someone's head into the incorrect conclusion that the "demo" units have different hardware. And then others in the store pick up on that as gospel.

That said, I'm also not sure we can be confident Tech Support has the right info either at this point.
--Bob

Unfortunately, I agree. The cat is out of the bag, and like you, I don't know what to believe at this point.

One has to assume that the mod hasn't talked to the typical uninformed CSR or TSR that we are likely to get on a blind call. I'm sure he has a "number" to call in these instances. I'm like 90% this is all about nothing, 10% maybe something to this. Common sense says, no way, to two completely different HW's at once being shipped.


We need Chris to chime in about now.....Kill that other 10% whispering in the back of our heads. Please.

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post #53 of 30732 Old 08-11-2008, 12:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by schlick View Post

The release of these players has definitely taken on a circus like atmosphere, and it just keeps getting more and more out there...

... only due to the Best Buy flub-up. Otherwise, it has been no different than any release where the ship dates are taken seriously, not allowing for "date-crawl". This merely underscores why I will never buy anything of substance from BB...

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post #54 of 30732 Old 08-11-2008, 12:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stipeman View Post

These loading times seem to be much faster than the times quoted by Ruined. CHP - can you be more specific about a particular disk and exactly what the start time and end time are in your measurement?

I will try to give more accurate information tonight when I get home stipeman.

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post #55 of 30732 Old 08-11-2008, 12:38 PM
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Ruined. Have you tried erasing the players BD local memory and try to play those movies you are having freeze ups with? Just a question dont kill the messenger. And as far as the production of the alleged 2 players with different hardware issue I would think its not true that the player would have a revision this early. it at all possible that the firware upgrade 1.0 is slightly different that retail firmware???? Maybe its version 1.0.1 which I've gotten on my computer hardware before for tiny updates to the firmware code? Can the person who has the retail version please check his firmware version and/or go get the movies Ruined had an issue with to see if you can duplicate them?
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post #56 of 30732 Old 08-11-2008, 12:40 PM - Thread Starter
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I PM'd Chris (Walkamo) who is the one member who can/ should clear this up

In the meantime, lets not speculate

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post #57 of 30732 Old 08-11-2008, 12:56 PM
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Has anyone tried to register their player yet? I would imagine automatic updates will be mailed to you as a benefit.
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post #58 of 30732 Old 08-11-2008, 12:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bzal1122 View Post

Ruined. Have you tried erasing the players BD local memory and try to play those movies you are having freeze ups with?

I tried Dragon's Lair with a new BDP-51FD fresh out of the box with v1.0 firmware and it froze before the game started in the same place the unit I returned did. It will not play, period. Same with space ace. I also tried the same with a factory defaults reset, same results. It is clearly a BD-J issue, all of the titles that freeze do so exactly in the same manner. They stop at the last second of the chapter and just sit there, usually when the next chapter/title involves some sort of BD-J secondary audio. Movies without much BD-J work 100% perfectly in this player, some of the ones with heavy BD-J or menus with heavy BD-J have issues.

Top Gun and Sunshine both sporadically work, meaning if you hit play and stop a bunch of times they will work like half the time - when they freeze, the symptoms are the same as Dragons Lair/Space Ace.

Its pretty clear there is a BD-J bug causing this error, as I have tried to seperate units upgraded to v1.0 and have had exactly the same freezes in exactly the same places. Further proving this is a BD-J bug is that Dragons Lair, Space Ace, and Top Gun all worked fine with beta 0.80a firmware. Something changed in v1.0 (and there was a lot changed) triggered this bug that is causing them to freeze now.

Quote:


Just a question dont kill the messenger. And as far as the production of the alleged 2 players with different hardware issue I would think its not true that the player would have a revision this early.

Right, makes zero sense and Chris walker has already stated in the past that demo/retail units have the same hardware.

Quote:


it at all possible that the firware upgrade 1.0 is slightly different that retail firmware???? Maybe its version 1.0.1 which I've gotten on my computer hardware before for tiny updates to the firmware code? Can the person who has the retail version please check his firmware version and/or go get the movies Ruined had an issue with to see if you can duplicate them?

Its doubtful that the retail units have any different firmware, likely just an issue of misinformed salespeople. The few movies that do have a freezing issue would not be worth delaying the player another month when it is already delayed around a month from the original expected ETA.

Vote with your wallet. Don't buy Cinavia-infected Blu-ray Discs! Why pay a premium for pseudo-lossless audio damaged by an intrusive watermark in the audible spectrum?
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post #59 of 30732 Old 08-11-2008, 01:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Pres2play View Post

Has anyone tried to register their player yet? I would imagine automatic updates will be mailed to you as a benefit.

I did, successfully.
Did not go through all the fine print but cannot recall seeing something about receiving automatic updates....
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post #60 of 30732 Old 08-11-2008, 01:03 PM
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Originally Posted by markrubin View Post

I PM'd Chris (Walkamo) who is the one member who can/ should clear this up

In the meantime, lets not speculate

Thanks

Thanks for doing this! Much appreciated.
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