Official Pioneer Elite BDP-05FD & BDP-51FD Owners Thread / Vs 1.32 DTS-HD MA - Page 22 - AVS Forum
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post #631 of 30774 Old 08-15-2008, 12:55 PM
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Originally Posted by ss9001 View Post

Pioneer's representative at this forum, Walkamo, promised faster if not fastest turn on, load & response times.

So far, faster times don't look like any better than previous players or competitive players.

Not quite true, though loadtimes are not fast the turn-on times are quite snappy compared to competing players. Tray out in 14 seconds and loading a bit after 20 seconds; I believe the Sony S350 takes a similar amount of time to come out of standby, nevermind from complete off as the Pioneer is. IMO loadtimes could be improved because disc detection alone currently appears to take 15 seconds or so, which I believe can be optimized further.

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We were told this player would be stable, top performing solid player being a true 3rd or maybe 4th gen (depending on whose POV) machine.....Clearly, this is not the case.

So far on v1.0 we have 4-5 titles with confirmed stability issues, two of which are obscure indepedent BD-J games. I wouldn't call that "unstable." Most players have some kinks they need to work out of their v1.0 firmware, and based on my testing the freezes all occur exactly the same way. So once they fix one, likely all of them will be fixed.

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Benefits from the DCT have yet to be solidly confirmed. Most say only subtly better if anything....Jury is still out. Possible

Yeah, this one is more subtle than I thought it would be.

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The PQLS HDMI jitter reduction circuitry for CD's. Can't recall anyone posting about it yet, but I do believe this will be a benefit.

I don't know, with jitter re-clocking mechanisms in modern processors I'm not sure you are going to hear a noticable difference with this. It is nice to have, but the fact that it works only with Pioneer stuff and further the fact that Pioneer does not make a pre/pro makes it limited application IMO.

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Best PQ of any player - some of you are talking about red push on the PDP setting & having to use Professional instead....So much for optimized tuning of color settings for different monitors.

I feel your assessment here is very unfair. IMO the 51FD by *FAR* has the best PQ of any player under a grand. Where else are you going to get the options of Source Direct output, ability to set YUV 4:4:4, YUV 4:2:2, RGB 16-235, RGB 0-255, 24bit or 36bit output, various video DSP modes, etc. No player even comes close to offering this many PQ options under a grand. Who cares if PDP has red push? The Video Adjust modes are all there to allow users to make minor tweaks to the picture if they wish. The Professional mode is there if you don't want any tweaks. Just more PQ options given to the user to play with.

This is clearly the 51FD's trump card as no player even comes remotely close to the amount of PQ options it has. In my case I need to send RGB 16-235 Source Direct to my processor and the 51FD is the *only* player on the market that can do it.

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So far looks like unfulfilled promises to me.

That is par for the course for Blu-ray players. I challenge you to name me any Blu-ray player that was not based on previous architecture which both performed well and had no bugs in v1.0 firmware... Good luck with that.

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just am shocked to read about these problems on a 3rd/4th gen player even if it has a new video chip. Panasonic's HD chip was new to them in a 1st gen machine and they made it work from the beginning. Why can't Pioneer?

Panasonic's HD chip wasn't fully implemented in their gen1 player, they used a National Semiconductor chip for upscaling DVD. It was fully implemented in BD30/BD50, and it does a horrible job at deinterlacing 480i DVD and 1080i Blu-ray. I would not use the atrocious PQ output of Uniphier as a good example of what an HD chip should deliver. While its no Reon/Realta, the Pioneer's HD chip far surpasses Panasonic's Uniphier in output quality.

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Are those Denon 3800's with the same Panasonic guts choking on discs?

The Denon 3800 was introduced many months after the architecture it was based on (Panasonic BD30) came onto the market. It still suffers from the -5db LFE bug the BD30 used to have. And, ironically, Sunshine was one of the discs the BD30 had problems with and needed a firmware fix to remedy. And right now there are a few Paramount discs that will not play at all in 1080p24 mode on Panasonic players for whatever the reason. Lets also not forget that the Denon 3800 also costs MSRP $1400 more than the 51FD, over 3x the price.
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post #632 of 30774 Old 08-15-2008, 12:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alfbinet View Post

I just hooked up my BDP-51FD and am having many problems. Freezes, slow load times (compared to my Panasonic BD30), and no video on my Pioneer 6010 (sometimes its there other times its not).

I have a Toshiba XA2 which has never given me problems, my Panasonic BD30 has been very stable, with a glitch with a few discs.

You would think at this time they could get this right. I am going going away for the weekend and play with the player when I get back on Sunday, but my initial impression is not great. I may have received a lemon. They do get through quality control,

Is this with demo or 1.0 FW? I had a couple freezes with the Demo FW, but since loading 1.0 I haven't had any issues, yet. I will say I haven't put as many hours on the 1.0 either. Blue
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post #633 of 30774 Old 08-15-2008, 01:02 PM
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Originally Posted by ss9001 View Post

Maybe I missed a post or several, but not going back thru all of them, didn't some of you have problems with T2 & maybe some others while it was playing?

I do have T2, I'll run it through the 05 and report back.

I miss the rosewood sides on the old Pioneer Elite equipment!

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post #634 of 30774 Old 08-15-2008, 01:03 PM
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Originally Posted by thebland View Post

Heretic!!!

I have to agree (with you .... + myself).

Both first gen BD players I own (Panny BD-10 and Denon 3800) have played every disc I have rented / bought of the last couple years.

Not sure what happened to Pioneer on this 3rd gen product but they better get cracking on fixes. Moreover, the fact that they shipped it incomplete (no DTS MA decoding) points to more issues than we may have even identified at this point. They must have gotten quite a good price on their new chipsets.. Not playing a disc should be a rarity these days. Obviously, most manufacturers are trying to cut prices for consumers, but it appears that other than the PS3, standalones have a ways to go..

I am still waiting for my test player to see for myself.

You almost sound glad...nah, couldn't be.
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post #635 of 30774 Old 08-15-2008, 01:05 PM
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I really liked what Ruined did by listing the issues he has had with 1.0 firmware in a single post. It might be more constructive for all if the other folks that are running 1.0 and having problems would do the same, and let's leave the beta firmware to the other locked thread.

This way it would be easier for Chris or whomever to find the issues and submit them to the software developers. Probably faster too. The more detail about the issue, the better. Don't just say "it locked up". What movie, BD, SD, etc. Where? Fast forwarding or just watching? Special features, java stuff.....

I'm sure Pioneer wants to take care of any issues as soon as possible. Let's help them do it.
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post #636 of 30774 Old 08-15-2008, 01:05 PM
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Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post

it's here! BDP-05FD -> Mitsubishi HC5500 projector. Direct Source - > Reon HQV is my main interest.

latest firmware. Can't test it until much later tonight, but thrilled it's here nonetheless.

it just doesn't have the styling of the classic elite LD players. Bring back the wood



That is the pretties BR player thus far...no doubt.
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post #637 of 30774 Old 08-15-2008, 01:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

That is the pretties BR player thus far...no doubt.

Agreed - that is one reason I want to get one as soon as I can!
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post #638 of 30774 Old 08-15-2008, 01:08 PM
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Originally Posted by uw69 View Post

I do have T2, I'll run it through the 05 and report back.

Run it through 5-10 times to the menu. See if it freezes before the menu displays any of those times.
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post #639 of 30774 Old 08-15-2008, 01:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

That is the pretties BR player thus far...no doubt.

Would you guys stop posting pictures??? You are making it really hard to hold out....

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post #640 of 30774 Old 08-15-2008, 01:23 PM
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Hey, what ever happened to Joe's review of the 51?
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post #641 of 30774 Old 08-15-2008, 01:33 PM
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Since updating the FW to 1.0 I have not experienced any movie play back freezes / issues. 51FD is working great

I do not have time to play with the extra features so cannot comment on them.

Gman
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post #642 of 30774 Old 08-15-2008, 01:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

That is the pretties BR player thus far...no doubt.

It is a nice looking piece! Of course I thought the 95 was great too!

I miss the rosewood sides on the old Pioneer Elite equipment!

Blu-ray - 576


HD DVD - 81

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post #643 of 30774 Old 08-15-2008, 02:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruined View Post

Run it through 5-10 times to the menu. See if it freezes before the menu displays any of those times.

I ran T2 through the 05 a dozen times, from the player being off to where the THX logo liquifies and no lock ups at all.

I miss the rosewood sides on the old Pioneer Elite equipment!

Blu-ray - 576


HD DVD - 81

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post #644 of 30774 Old 08-15-2008, 02:26 PM
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I have I Robot, T2 and Top Gun in my library, so I will give them a spin and test for the freezes/lockups...

Chris. My DVD and Blu Ray collection
JVC RS65, ST 130, B&W 803 Diamonds mains, B&W HTM2 Diamond center channel,B&W 805 Diamond surrounds, B&W DB1 subwoofer, Anthem D2v, Parasound Halo A51+A21,Oppo BDP 103D,PS Audio Power Plant Premier
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post #645 of 30774 Old 08-15-2008, 02:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruined View Post

So far on v1.0 we have 4-5 titles with confirmed stability issues, two of which are obscure indepedent BD-J games. I wouldn't call that "unstable." Most players have some kinks they need to work out of their v1.0 firmware, and based on my testing the freezes all occur exactly the same way. So once they fix one, likely all of them will be fixed.

I sincerely hope you're right.

But let me point out that you found playback with 4-5 titles - that's only the ones you've discovered so far & statistically not significant to say this player is solid. Try Descent, Ruins, Prestige & some of the others with BD-J that were problematic in the past, and let's find out for sure.

I agree with all your statements about all the nice features & I really want these Pioneer players to succeed. But the fact that new owners are posting so early (literally within days of owning the player) & discovering playback problems is not a good sign. Some may be minor granted, but some seem to be major, like albinet's player repeatedly freezing up.

I hope I'm wrong, but I am not willing to go along with this player being the best BD player out now while you folks are discovering problems so early in the game.

All the features are wonderful and will be very useful to me & many owners, but I'm not pleased that the movie titles you all have had problems with are ones that I currently own including I-R, T2 & TG

So forgive me for being skeptical just as Jeff thebland was/is and forgive me for being "unfair". But I don't think it's being unfair when I expected a lot of posts would be about success stories, how great the PQ is with "xyz" display, maybe questions on settings & the usual HDMI issues. Instead, what is disturbing is seeing quite a few posts about core basics being a problem.

Ruined, to be perfectly honest, I haven't read so many posts about disc problems in such as short time since the Toshiba HD days. And that is scary..

I've been thru that already & now I have no problems with my XA2 player & combo discs. Despite my being format neutral, the one big thing I could say about the Bluray side was how reliable my player was. Hard to think I may be giving that up for another "toshiba" in disguise...

We should be getting past being player beta testers for the manufacturers. This applies to all of them, not just Pioneer.

ss9001

Steve
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post #646 of 30774 Old 08-15-2008, 02:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

You almost sound glad...nah, couldn't be.

Nah... Not glad... Despite my predilection for sharp comments, I really try and give my experiences to folks and save headaches. I'm on the enthusiasts side.

I have mentioned many times my headaches with all my purchases and as you know I complain about all equipment, especially the equipment I own. Go to the Denon 3800 thread and read my comments directed to DenonJeff when I found out about the LFE bug. Lets just say I wasn't very happy (but ended up buying the 3800 anyways as there is a work around). I red-assed Denon about it for weeks!

With Pioneer, I am surprised about all these issues. This is a 3rd gen player but may as well be a Samsung for all the glitches.

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post #647 of 30774 Old 08-15-2008, 02:31 PM
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Originally Posted by uw69 View Post

I ran T2 through the 05 a dozen times, from the player being off to where the THX logo liquifies and no lock ups at all.

So is it player specific like QC problems or the player being overly sensitive with discs that are maybe less than perfect condition?

ss9001

Steve
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post #648 of 30774 Old 08-15-2008, 02:40 PM
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Originally Posted by thebland View Post

..This is a 3rd gen player but may as well be a Samsung for all the glitches.


I see you agree!
Wait 'till Chris Walker reads that! Maybe that will get some quick action from Pioneer. He needs to post some assurances fast.

ss9001

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post #649 of 30774 Old 08-15-2008, 02:46 PM
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Originally Posted by ss9001 View Post

So is it player specific like QC problems or the player being overly sensitive with discs that are maybe less than perfect condition?

ss9001

I think it's too early to tell, if we had more 05's to get in on the testing we could maybe narrow it down. The 05 ships with FW 1.0, I assume is the same as what the 51 has or will be getting.

Way too much beta FW issues interspersed with relased (1.0) FW in this thread to make any conclusion. I have been a fan of Pioneer equipment for many years. I have yet to purchase anything from them that wasn't top notch. Pioneer still releases regular FW updates for it's 1st and 2nd gen players. I'm betting they will do the same for any issues found in the 51/05 as well.


You seem to have real doubts about these Pioneer players, why not go a different direction and purchase a different player?

I miss the rosewood sides on the old Pioneer Elite equipment!

Blu-ray - 576


HD DVD - 81

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post #650 of 30774 Old 08-15-2008, 02:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ss9001 View Post

So is it player specific like QC problems or the player being overly sensitive with discs that are maybe less than perfect condition?

ss9001

there was 1 report of T2 and the owner had other problems too, which cleared up after he reset his machine. It sounds like T2 was a false alarm, removing it from the glitch list.
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post #651 of 30774 Old 08-15-2008, 03:16 PM
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Just did some brief tests with the HQV benchmark DVD.

I compared upconverting DVD to 1080p with three devices:
Sony KDS-60A3000 (1080i fix applied)
Pioneer BDP-51FD
Integra DTC-9.8 Reon

Pioneer was in "Professional" mode RGB 16-235, High Speed = On.
For KDS-60A3000, Pioneer was set to Source Direct, Integra to Through.
For Pioneer BDP-51FD, Pioneer was set to 1080p, Integra to Through.
For Integra DTC-9.8 Reon, Pioneer was set to Source Direct, Integra to 1080p.

In general, on a 1-10 scale if 1 is the worst and 10 is the best, the three devices scored as follows overall on the variety of tests:
Sony KDS-60A3000: 4.5
Pioneer BDP-51FD: 7
Integra DTC-9.8 Reon: 8.5

Will do the HD Blu-ray HQV test later.
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post #652 of 30774 Old 08-15-2008, 03:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by willyd View Post

Top Gun came out on Blu-Ray disc in late July 2008. It hasn't been out for a long time.

I believe that Top Gun was released on Blu Ray in 2007, prior to Paramount's ill-considered decision to abandon Blu Ray and shift to only releasing titles on HD-DVD.
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post #653 of 30774 Old 08-15-2008, 03:24 PM
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Originally Posted by RoboRay View Post

I believe that Top Gun was released on Blu Ray in 2007, prior to Paramount's ill-considered decision to abandon Blu Ray and shift to only releasing titles on HD-DVD.


Bluray release date is July 29, 2008. I think you're referring to the HDDVD release.

http://www.highdefdigest.com/news/show/1767
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post #654 of 30774 Old 08-15-2008, 03:43 PM
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Originally Posted by uw69 View Post

You seem to have real doubts about these Pioneer players, why not go a different direction and purchase a different player?

My 1st choice this time is Pioneer. That's why I have one pre-ordered. That's also why I am concerned. I did buy another 1st gen player because Pioneer delayed theirs over 6 months. I gave up on them and bought the Panasonic.

I was hoping Pioneer would come thru this time. Nothing against Panasonic. The BD10 player has completely met my expectations considering its a 1st gen player. Time to move on. Pioneer will probably soon have my money...I just think we shouldn't have 1st gen problems with a 3rd gen machine.

As an enthusiast, you should understand that.
I've had too much success with the Panasonic's reliable playback to have to go backwards & deal with playback problems.

ss9001

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post #655 of 30774 Old 08-15-2008, 03:48 PM
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Originally Posted by voltes View Post

Bluray release date is July 29, 2008. I think you're referring to the HDDVD release.

http://www.highdefdigest.com/news/show/1767

No, it was the Blu Ray, but further checking indicates that while the discs were manufactured in 2007, they didn't become generally available. Supposedly, a few copies slipped out before the discs were shipped off to the warehouse, though.
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post #656 of 30774 Old 08-15-2008, 04:04 PM
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Originally Posted by thebland View Post

Nah... Not glad... Despite my predilection for sharp comments, I really try and give my experiences to folks and save headaches. I'm on the enthusiasts side.

I have mentioned many times my headaches with all my purchases and as you know I complain about all equipment, especially the equipment I own. Go to the Denon 3800 thread and read my comments directed to DenonJeff when I found out about the LFE bug. Lets just say I wasn't very happy (but ended up buying the 3800 anyways as there is a work around). I red-assed Denon about it for weeks!

With Pioneer, I am surprised about all these issues. This is a 3rd gen player but may as well be a Samsung for all the glitches.

Just having fun Jeff! Yeah, I'm more than a bit surprised too, but I really expect this will be solved in the first firmware update (after 1.0). I don't think we have enough datapoints yet to rule out dirty discs and HDMI issues. So let's give it some more time.

But it is scary since I can't ever recall having a playback issue with my BD30 from day one.
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post #657 of 30774 Old 08-15-2008, 04:07 PM
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Originally Posted by RoboRay View Post

No, it was the Blu Ray, but further checking indicates that while the discs were manufactured in 2007, they didn't become generally available. Supposedly, a few copies slipped out before the discs were shipped off to the warehouse, though.

But my guess is this is probably a newer release than the ones that slipped because of the inclusion of the DTS-HDMA. But I could be wrong.

Got a myself copy of Sunshine and Superbad and will test both later for possible freeze. Crossing my fingers
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post #658 of 30774 Old 08-15-2008, 04:37 PM
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Originally Posted by voltes View Post

Got a myself copy of Sunshine and Superbad and will test both later for possible freeze. Crossing my fingers

If you get freezes on Sunshine I really will get bummed!! That's another title I have in my collection. I-R, T2, TG, Ruins, Sunshine. I hope you don't make it 5 for 5

And I hope someone can check Descent, Prestige & some of the sloooow loading, garbaged up Disney's like PoC. Many thanks if these play OK.

ss9001

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post #659 of 30774 Old 08-15-2008, 04:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ss9001 View Post


I see you agree!
Wait 'till Chris Walker reads that! Maybe that will get some quick action from Pioneer. He needs to post some assurances fast.

ss9001

Yes that would be nice but the simple fact is we will buy these new players.

And I don't think Chris has much to do with product updates. If this is the same Chris Walker that was mentioned in Gizmodo review of the 51/05 then he is the Pioneer's Blu-ray marketing manager not in R/D department for Pioneer. "Pioneer's Blu-ray marketing manager Chris Walker tells us that the company will launch a BD-Live player, in fact, a "super-duper flagship-status piece," this fall."
http://gizmodo.com/387893/pioneer-co...ming-this-fall
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post #660 of 30774 Old 08-15-2008, 04:48 PM
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Originally Posted by ss9001 View Post

My 1st choice this time is Pioneer. That's why I have one pre-ordered. That's also why I am concerned. I did buy another 1st gen player because Pioneer delayed theirs over 6 months. I gave up on them and bought the Panasonic.

I was hoping Pioneer would come thru this time. Nothing against Panasonic. The BD10 player has completely met my expectations considering its a 1st gen player. Time to move on. Pioneer will probably soon have my money...I just think we shouldn't have 1st gen problems with a 3rd gen machine.

As an enthusiast, you should understand that.
I've had too much success with the Panasonic's reliable playback to have to go backwards & deal with playback problems.

ss9001


I AGREE WITH YOU 100%. I do not understand why SOME people get mad when they make a $ 600.00 purchase with bugs like this Pioneer blu-player has, and they get angry, not at Pioneer, but at those who reject the mediocrity of the product. they take it personally, like if those of us who criticize it actually wanted to trash their purchase for no reason at all. I really like the potential that these Pioneer units could provide in the future, and I was counting on them to replace my actual player but the bugs that they have with the new firmware are unacceptable to me , and they should be unacceptable to anybody who spends their hard earned money on a product that should be working flawlessly. This preconceived notion that all blu-ray players are supposed to have bugs is nonsense, none of them should have any major problems at all, we are not getting these units for free, they cost a lot of money. Nowadays a regular dvd player cost a couple of bucks. How do you make this new format stick to the masses when they buy a a blu-ray player and 4 out of 10 movies freeze? I assure you they won't come to this forum to find out what's wrong with their unit, they will return or exchange it only to find a reoccurring problem.

Blu-ray will not survive in the upcoming downloading revolution if they keep offering $600 and $800 players that freeze in the menu section or in the middle of a movie.

I say little problems here and there is normal on any new format, but third generation players should at least be able to load and play a movie properly without requiring their customers to have a degree from MIT.

Do not steal, The powers that be do not like the competition.
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