Official Pioneer Elite BDP-05FD & BDP-51FD Owners Thread / Vs 1.32 DTS-HD MA - Page 7 - AVS Forum
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post #181 of 30742 Old 08-12-2008, 09:10 AM
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Originally Posted by Ruined View Post

It sounds like you have it setup wrong. You should set the Integra to 1080i and that should at least give a cleaner interlaced output than running the DVD straight to the TV will get you. Unfortunately you will still likely be bottlenecked by the Sony's 1080i>1080p conversion, but having the Reon deinterlace 480i and upscale/re-interlace to 1080i will probably give you better results than having the TV deinterlace 480i itself.

As for the weak sound, have you used the Audyssey calibration on the 9.8? Also, do you have the Pioneer's HDMI Audio setting to "Auto"? That should provide you with bitstream sound on SD and thus should give you same results as coax/optical. Also make sure HDMI control is set to off on the 51FD to prevent the TV from interfering with it.

I have set up Audyssey, I have Pioneer's HDMI Audio set to "Auto". Where is the HDMI control to set it to off? Thanks. I just seems with optical I set the sound to -10, with HDMI I have to set it to 0 to get the same result.
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post #182 of 30742 Old 08-12-2008, 09:12 AM
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Originally Posted by voltes View Post

ill try to grab a screenshot while im testing the layer change tonight. i might even plop in the hqv benchmark disc. i just hope i remember where i put it lol

Great!!! Thanks a lot
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post #183 of 30742 Old 08-12-2008, 09:48 AM
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Originally Posted by gonzalc3 View Post

Now that there are a certain number or players out there with the 51FD v 10 firmware, I think it will be useful to create a new thread with the list of bugs found so far. This will help a lot to pioneer...

I can just add them to my post at the start of the thread. Are you able to duplicate your Patriot Games glitch or was it a one time thing?

Vote with your wallet. Don't buy Cinavia-infected Blu-ray Discs! Why pay a premium for pseudo-lossless audio damaged by an intrusive watermark in the audible spectrum?
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post #184 of 30742 Old 08-12-2008, 09:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chip913 View Post

I have set up Audyssey, I have Pioneer's HDMI Audio set to "Auto". Where is the HDMI control to set it to off? Thanks. I just seems with optical I set the sound to -10, with HDMI I have to set it to 0 to get the same result.

That's not weak audio. The reason why the optical is 10db louder is because with optical you are getting only DVD quality sound (Dolby Digital) which has less dynamic range (less distance between lowest and highest decibal sounds) and hence is recorded louder. With HDMI you are getting the full lossless Blu-ray tracks which are generally recorded at a lower volume to give you a larger dynamic range.

In other words, though the new codecs have to be cranked louder, by being recorded at a lower volume it actually provides more dynamic range as a result and because of this added dynamic range nextgen codecs sound better. Your setup is thus likely working fine and you should leave it as-is. Just get used to a different master volume level and dont be afraid to go into +1/+2/+3db etc if necessary...

Vote with your wallet. Don't buy Cinavia-infected Blu-ray Discs! Why pay a premium for pseudo-lossless audio damaged by an intrusive watermark in the audible spectrum?
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post #185 of 30742 Old 08-12-2008, 09:51 AM
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Now that we have a reasonable number of V1.0 owners posting here, would anyone care to step up to the plate and announce that the Deep Color Trick is actually providing some significant enhancement in some specific scenes?

It would be great if you can identify the scene and the improvement that you've noted. "Banding" management has been most commonly discussed here, but don't think you have to limit yourself to just that.

It will take a while to sort through issues such as equipment used and how your video is set up (to make sure we aren't actually looking at some other cause for the difference), but first things first: Let's try to list some candidate scenes where turning on "high speed" appears to significantly improve the image over when it is turned off -- or using "high speed" in the Pioneer players in comparison to some other player which presumably doesn't do this. Then other owners can check the same scenes and we'll see if we get any consensus.

----------------------------------------

Also there was a poster in one of the other threads who volunteered to test and confirm whether the video decoding and basic color upsampling in these players (i.e., the stuff that has to happen independent of any "image enhancement" processing) was actually being done at 10 bits per component or 12 bits per component. I forget who posted that. Can anyone who understands this stuff test and report on this yet?
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post #186 of 30742 Old 08-12-2008, 09:59 AM
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i think the hard part is finding a movie that you know the banding isn't on the original source and is just from compression.
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post #187 of 30742 Old 08-12-2008, 10:14 AM
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Sure, but let's see if we can list some candidate scenes where owners believe they are seeing an improvement, and then others can check them.

Frankly, even if the problem is in a user's setup, the fact that switching between "high speed" on and off changes the result is useful information. It will help folks figure out how "high speed" interacts with their efforts to calibrate video.

We had one early report ("demo" firmware) for example that "high speed" ON output YCbCr 4:4:4 (as expected), but "high speed" OFF unexpectedly switched that to YCbCr 4:2:2 output.
--Bob

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post #188 of 30742 Old 08-12-2008, 10:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruined View Post

That's not weak audio. The reason why the optical is 10db louder is because with optical you are getting only DVD quality sound (Dolby Digital) which has less dynamic range (less distance between lowest and highest decibal sounds) and hence is recorded louder. With HDMI you are getting the full lossless Blu-ray tracks which are generally recorded at a lower volume to give you a larger dynamic range.

In other words, though the new codecs have to be cranked louder, by being recorded at a lower volume it actually provides more dynamic range as a result and because of this added dynamic range nextgen codecs sound better. Your setup is thus likely working fine and you should leave it as-is. Just get used to a different master volume level and dont be afraid to go into +1/+2/+3db etc if necessary...

I was getting a huge difference in volume (~12 db) between bitstreaming and LPCM to my Onkyo 875, again with .80a. I will retest this when I receive the release firmware.
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post #189 of 30742 Old 08-12-2008, 10:43 AM
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Originally Posted by mrjktcvs View Post

I was getting a huge difference in volume (~12 db) between bitstreaming and LPCM to my Onkyo 875, again with .80a. I will retest this when I receive the release firmware.

I dunno, with v1.0 firmware I am not having any audio issues of note. There may be an audio volume difference between bitstream and LPCM, but I have only been using bitstream (Auto) and the same preamp as the above poster who reported volume issue. I have not had any headroom issues, most tracks I had to watch in the -7db to -15db range on my preamp/amp combo (Integra DTC-9.8, Rotel RB-1090, Parasound HCA-2205A).

Vote with your wallet. Don't buy Cinavia-infected Blu-ray Discs! Why pay a premium for pseudo-lossless audio damaged by an intrusive watermark in the audible spectrum?
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post #190 of 30742 Old 08-12-2008, 10:43 AM
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If anyone has the Best Buy/Magnolia sku# for the BDP-51FD I sure would appreciate it.
Thanks
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post #191 of 30742 Old 08-12-2008, 10:51 AM
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Originally Posted by Jake Ironshirt View Post

If anyone has the Best Buy/Magnolia sku# for the BDP-51FD I sure would appreciate it.
Thanks

SKU #8894609 ... Pioneer ... BDP-51FD ... MSRP $599
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post #192 of 30742 Old 08-12-2008, 10:59 AM
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When do these players become available nationally? Bestbuy.com does not show either player for sale.
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post #193 of 30742 Old 08-12-2008, 11:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Pariseau View Post

Sure, but let's see if we can list some candidate scenes where owners believe they are seeing an improvement, and then others can check them.

Frankly, even if the problem is in a user's setup, the fact that switching between "high speed" on and off changes the result is useful information. It will help folks figure out how "high speed" interacts with their efforts to calibrate video.

We had one early report ("demo" firmware) for example that "high speed" ON output YCbCr 4:4:4 (as expected), but "high speed" OFF unexpectedly switched that to YCbCr 4:2:2 output.
--Bob

Having to stop the movie, switch high speed on or off, then search for that exact scene again is not a good way to discern subtle differences, which seems to be the case here. We need someone to set up a side by side comparison using two separate screens, two separate 51 players and two copies of the same movie. One player will have the deep color on. That should answer all questions about deep color.
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post #194 of 30742 Old 08-12-2008, 11:07 AM
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Originally Posted by Ruined View Post

Chris stated it starts in ~14 seconds, and indeed the tray does eject in ~14 seconds as I stated in my post in the first page. Splash screen is ~18 seconds and disc load is at ~22 seconds. These times will vary +/- 5 seconds depending on your equipment & HDMI handshaking.

So the player does start up very fast. Where it could use improvement is in media detection. After you close the tray, half of the time quoted in my loadtimes on page 1 is spent detecting the disc. If they could speed up that algorithm then it would be really fast not only at starting up but also on disc loads.

Thanks Ruined. It does amaze me that all BR players take as long as they do in the detection process. You would think that should be a very quick process.
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post #195 of 30742 Old 08-12-2008, 11:13 AM
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Originally Posted by Pres2play View Post

Having to stop the movie, switch high speed on or off, then search for that exact scene again is not a good way to discern subtle differences, which seems to be the case here. We need someone to set up a side by side comparison using two separate screens, two separate 51 players and two copies of the same movie. One player will have the deep color on. That should answer all questions about deep color.

For subtle differences you are surely right.

I think folks were hoping for something more dramatic that would be obvious across the time it takes to make the switch.

Also keep in mind that we have yet to figure out whether turning "high speed" on/off changes the "best" video calibration setup for your video chain. That's something that can be done without having to constantly switch back and forth. Just take the time to set it up right each way and see if that results in any difference in the "best" settings you come up with.

Finally there is the issue of what "high speed" ON might do for folks who don't happen to have Deep Color enabled AVRs or displays, and whether the YCbCr 4:4:4 vs 4:2:2 selection might have a role in this.
--Bob

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post #196 of 30742 Old 08-12-2008, 11:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Pariseau View Post

Sure, but let's see if we can list some candidate scenes where owners believe they are seeing an improvement, and then others can check them.

Frankly, even if the problem is in a user's setup, the fact that switching between "high speed" on and off changes the result is useful information. It will help folks figure out how "high speed" interacts with their efforts to calibrate video.

We had one early report ("demo" firmware) for example that "high speed" ON output YCbCr 4:4:4 (as expected), but "high speed" OFF unexpectedly switched that to YCbCr 4:2:2 output.
--Bob

Ok, here's one. In Corspe Bride, just before the main title, the parchment the groom is drawing on appears to have better color detail with deep color engaged. I see traces of blue mixed in with the brown and the colors seem to flow more noticably on the delicate paper. With deep color off, the paper looks a bit plain and slightly pale.
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post #197 of 30742 Old 08-12-2008, 11:14 AM
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My wife tells me I have received mail from Pioneer.

I had called in for the FW upgrade disc on 8/4 at 9am and was given a case # at that time.

Can't wait to get home and do the nasty with my 51FD (upgrade I mean)
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post #198 of 30742 Old 08-12-2008, 11:25 AM
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I purchased it (BDP-51FD) today from the Pioneer Electronics site. According to my order status it has shipped. I specified 2-day second air. May get it on Thursday - I hope.

Now need to do a search on how to determine firmware that resides on the machine. I am sure it must be in this thread.

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post #199 of 30742 Old 08-12-2008, 11:25 AM
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I think we're going to have to wait for Joerod to find out whether deep color tricks are not an illusion ... can't wait to hear about his findings on Friday!
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post #200 of 30742 Old 08-12-2008, 11:27 AM
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Originally Posted by D.Rowe View Post

Is that 36bit dot by dot pure only displayed on the ELITE Kuro's? I have the 5080 and when the 51FD is set to 4:4:4 my 5080 reads 36 bit only. Just curious...

The "Dot by Dot" refers to exact pixel by pixel representation on the display. Your 5080 is a 768p display not a 1080p, therefore you cannot do 1920x1080 dot by dot on that display. However, your 5080 can accept a 1080p24 signal so you can do the "Pure" 3:3 pulldown to your 72Hz display.
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post #201 of 30742 Old 08-12-2008, 11:29 AM
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Has anybody tried a 2.0 title out on this thing yet? How does it deal with them (ie. does it grey out web menu items? not display them at all? Throw an ugly-arse Java exception?)...

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post #202 of 30742 Old 08-12-2008, 11:37 AM
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Originally Posted by GmanAVS View Post

SKU #8894609 ... Pioneer ... BDP-51FD ... MSRP $599

Thank you!
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post #203 of 30742 Old 08-12-2008, 11:40 AM
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SUGGESTION:

Before this thread gets to several hundred pages (again), why not split it into seperate 51 and 05 threads. The 05 is due out any day now and when it is this thread will be jammed with new 05 comments.

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post #204 of 30742 Old 08-12-2008, 11:50 AM
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Originally Posted by Glimmie View Post

SUGGESTION:

Before this thread gets to several hundred pages (again), why not split it into seperate 51 and 05 threads. The 05 is due out any day now and when it is this thread will be jammed with new 05 comments.

I agree. I'd like to be able to go through and pick out info separately.
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post #205 of 30742 Old 08-12-2008, 11:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pres2play View Post

Ok, here's one. In Corspe Bride, just before the main title, the parchment the groom is drawing on appears to have better color detail with deep color engaged. I see traces of blue mixed in with the brown and the colors seem to flow more noticably on the delicate paper. With deep color off, the paper looks a bit plain and slightly pale.

Good! That's a start. I don't happen to have that disc myself yet, but I'm sure others posting here do have it. Oh, and I forget, but I think you are one of the posters with a V1.0 firmware player, right?

By the way, have you taken the time to double check your video calibration with "high speed" ON and OFF? Did you discover any changes that were necessary, even slight ones, to get the calibration both ways to the quality level you were targeting?

And does your display or AVR allow you to tell whether it is in fact the case that "high speed" OFF switches to YCbCr 4:2:2 all by itself? (This result may very well depend on whether your display actually accepts 4:2:2.)
--Bob

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post #206 of 30742 Old 08-12-2008, 11:54 AM
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Originally Posted by Glimmie View Post

SUGGESTION:

Before this thread gets to several hundred pages (again), why not split it into seperate 51 and 05 threads. The 05 is due out any day now and when it is this thread will be jammed with new 05 comments.

+1 It would seem appropriate.
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post #207 of 30742 Old 08-12-2008, 11:55 AM
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Originally Posted by Googlefan View Post

I think we're going to have to wait for Joerod to find out whether deep color tricks are not an illusion ... can't wait to hear about his findings on Friday!

Ditto..
I'm also waiting for Robert's Blu-ray shoot out... I'm thinking that will provide the definitive answer..
In the meantime, I'm gonna enjoy my perceived or real idea, that it's providing the best pq at this point in time.

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post #208 of 30742 Old 08-12-2008, 12:12 PM
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Anyone using the Source Direct feature on the 51FD to take advantage of downstream processing, either in an Integra 9.8, Denon A1HD? If so, I am interested to hear your impression of the 51FD. Any issues?
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post #209 of 30742 Old 08-12-2008, 12:20 PM
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Once the 05's are in the market and someone has one....PM myself or another mod and we will start a separate thread dedicated to ownership of that model.

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post #210 of 30742 Old 08-12-2008, 12:25 PM
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Originally Posted by rsbeck View Post

Anyone using the Source Direct feature on the 51FD to take advantage of downstream processing, either in an Integra 9.8, Denon A1HD? If so, I am interested to hear your impression of the 51FD. Any issues?


You'll want to check out ruined's comments on this box....He has been running the 51 into a 9.8 I believe, both with the Reon engaged and off. Many of them may have been lost due to the crash, but check back over the early pages and posts by ruined.

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