First pics of Oppo's upcoming BDP-83 BD/DVD/SACD player from CEDIA - Page 10 - AVS Forum
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Old 09-09-2008, 02:07 AM
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Originally Posted by jmschnur View Post

Any hint of ACVHD support?

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Old 09-09-2008, 02:51 AM
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Originally Posted by soyuppy View Post

May be I'm naive, but why not just making it a transport only?

Surely many who is willing to buy the unit already have pre/pro or receiver ready to decode all audio formats. And many will opt to use the HDMI/S/PDIF as oppose to analog outs.

Focus on Video and transport. That will bring down the price as well. I hope.

Two reasons:
  1. Only the latest crop of receivers can decode the fancy new BD lossless audio formats. These are spendy devices, typically costing more than the player.
  2. The OPPO players are designed to do the decoding, the D-to-A conversion, and the SD upconversion very well - far better than the receiver or display, in many cases, unless you're willing to spend considerably more.

There are other choices for transport-only players, making competition very stiff for OPPO.

However, I agree that there are plenty of people who are looking for transport-only players, and would be happier to spend a bit more for an OPPO, because they are phenominal players, and they support all kinds of formats, like SACD, DVD-A, etc.

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Old 09-09-2008, 05:46 AM
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Originally Posted by soyuppy View Post

May be I'm naive, but why not just making it a transport only?

Surely many who is willing to buy the unit already have pre/pro or receiver ready to decode all audio formats. And many will opt to use the HDMI/S/PDIF as oppose to analog outs.

Focus on Video and transport. That will bring down the price as well. I hope.

For some, a pure transport would be a great fit, but there are also a significant number of people with receivers or processors that lack HDMI audio inputs. For them, the only way to make use of DD+, TrueHD, or DTS-HD is via the multichannel analog input on their processor - and in more than a few cases, that input is already tied up with a DVD-A/SACD player.

Also, as far as decoding the new formats, there are even fewer receivers that support that capability - but there are also cases where you cannot use certain extra features at all without supporting internal decoding. Any time the player is called to combine two audio sources (something that was done routinely on HD-DVD titles and is also supported by Blu-ray), you have to be able to decode the bitstream first.

I forget if I said it in this thread or another one, but it makes sense to do a player like the BDP-83 first and then have a platform that can be scaled back relatively quickly to serve as a digital transport only - the first product introduced would offer the greatest flexibility and be more likely to stand out from the crowd as far as features go, while the development time for a player that "weeded out" some features would be shorter than for one that tried to add lots of new hardware.

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Old 09-09-2008, 05:56 AM
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Originally Posted by gonk View Post

I forget if I said it in this thread or another one, but it makes sense to do a player like the BDP-83 first and then have a platform that can be scaled back relatively quickly to serve as a digital transport only - the first product introduced would offer the greatest flexibility and be more likely to stand out from the crowd as far as features go, while the development time for a player that "weeded out" some features would be shorter than for one that tried to add lots of new hardware.

And Oppo has done something like that in the past. Their first player (971) was fairly high-end for its day, but the second (970) was noted for its simple 480i over HDMI, which is what the video processor people wanted.

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Old 09-09-2008, 06:35 AM
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Originally Posted by GSB View Post

That's a rather odd comment... akin to saying that upgrading from DVD to Blu-Ray is not worth it. Yet you are switching to Blu-Ray, and you'd rather suffer the downgrade of converting the pristine digital signal to analog, then converting the analog signal back to digital in the display (along with all the associated errors and noise introduced). Switching from component to HDMI made a whopping difference to the upscaled image.

Gary

My whole HT infrastructure is component. I had a Toshiba A3 for a while and the up-convert of component was great. I don't think all of the benefit of an HD source comes from HDMI. I'll get around to upgrading my reciever some time after the whole BluRay technology matures.

If Toshiba could do it, Oppo can do it.
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Old 09-09-2008, 06:59 AM
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Here's the list of AVCHD licensees:

http://www.avchd-info.org/

Keith, are you following this thread because there's a Sigma Designs chip in it? (I know you probably can't answer that ).

But can you comment on the claim it will load disks as fast as a PS3? Does this imply it contains an SOC that's not currently in any shipping player (or do you consider some of the other recent players to be as fast as a PS3)?
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Old 09-09-2008, 07:42 AM
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Originally Posted by GSB View Post

According to reports found at DigiTimes and other technology newspapers, MediaTek has a Blu-Ray version of their venerable decoder chipset. At the end of 2006, "MediaTek sent samples of chips for Blu-ray and HD-DVD drives to customers, including Lite-On IT, Samsung Electronics and LG Electronics". OPPO has a long-standing relationship with MediaTek, and if the chipset works well, I'm sure it'll be in the BDP-83.

Gary

I have always been disappointed with the Oppo SD players inablity to play DivX/Xvid files with resolutions that exceed 720x480. While these files were upconverted, native Hi-res files could not be played. Does the new mediaTek chip address this? Sony and Panasonic Blu ray players handle DVD's without a mediatek chip so I am thinking if Mediatek wanted to improve their chips for a high definition player, a good place to start would be to improve DivX hi-res play back.

I am really asking/suggesting that this player might actually be able to handle hi-res material such as jpegs, mp3's, DivX, in addition to Blu content. If so, ACVHD should also be included. I am also speculating that Oppo might actually drop a major part of their existing line (980,981,983) and focus on a universal blu ray transport/media player with just bitstream HDMI outputs for audio and video, plus limited analog audio (similar to 981). The the larger BDP 83 seen the photos has a total blu ray 2.0 capability.

I know I am speculating alot here, but these are just ideas....after all, how confident can you be of introducing and selling a 'swang song' product (in the case of the 983) unless you have a superior strategy waiting. I think the key to the new product lineup is determining the exact capabilities of the mediatek chip.
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Old 09-09-2008, 07:52 AM
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Originally Posted by wmcclain View Post

And Oppo has done something like that in the past. Their first player (971) was fairly high-end for its day, but the second (970) was noted for its simple 480i over HDMI, which is what the video processor people wanted.

Precisely - and they've retained that product line structure ever since (with the 981HD and 980H), only deviating to add the 983H as a "statement piece" (as well as a proof of concept for integrating ABT technology into their designs). With DVD player sales likely to do nothing but continue to taper off (especially for anything beyond the most entry-level models), it seems inevitable that they'd look to reproduce that structure with Blu-ray.
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Originally Posted by Tweakophyte View Post

My whole HT infrastructure is component. I had a Toshiba A3 for a while and the up-convert of component was great. I don't think all of the benefit of an HD source comes from HDMI. I'll get around to upgrading my reciever some time after the whole BluRay technology matures.

If Toshiba could do it, Oppo can do it.

Based on earlier comments, you already know that upconversion of copy-protected DVD content over component outputs is "off limits." What is important to also remember is how that restriction (whatever your personal feelings about its validity) influences the way a player is designed. If the scaling and deinterlacing is handled by the same chip that does video D/A conversion, it is easy (relatively speaking) to allow upscaling of unprotected DVD content. That is the case for the HD-A3, and it is the case for OPPO's 970HD and 980H. Thus, all three players can scale unprotected DVD content. Similarly, if a player is designed to use both a separate scaling solution and a dedicated video DAC, the same thing can still be achieved, but this is rare because so many players use a multipurpose chip for video decoding and video DAC duties. If the scaling and deinterlacing happens in a separate chip (like the Faroudja chip in OPPO's 971H and 981HD or the ABT chips in their 983H) that is located after the multipurpose chip that houses the player's video DAC, the only way to support scaling at the component outputs is to put in a second video DAC (useful solely for those cases when unprotected DVD content is in use, which for most people is very rarely). That's an added hardware cost and increased development costs, and it's all to achieve something that will rarely be useful.

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Old 09-09-2008, 09:15 AM
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I am getting the BDP-83 as soon as it comes out. It is the answer to my short term and long term needs.

I own a DV-970H. It is the best 'bang for the buck' product I've ever bought in consumer electronics.

Short term, the BDP-83 gives me a way to continue to utilize my current receiver (a Marantz SR-8500 which lacks HDMI inputs), adding Blu Ray and the new audio codecs, without giving up SACD and (hopefully DVD-Audio).

I also expect the built in video processing of this player to improve SD DVD playback significantly.

In the long term, I expect that being able to wait on the CE manufacturers to optimize their pre/processor designs will save me money and aggravation.
I just don't want to spend $2000 on a pre/pro now just to have HDMI inputs and the new audio codecs.

Frankly, I do not like any of the currently available pre/pro designs. Poorly designed analog audio implementations, too many legacy video connections I don't want to pay for, and no ability to customize video switching and/or scaling options.

I am only seeing one CE manufacturer (Bryston) which is designing a pre/pro which is future oriented. Their forthcoming SP3 pre/pro will have high quality analog with true bypass of A/D and subsequent D/A conversion on multiple inputs, a built-in high end upsampling DAC and options for video switching and/or scaling.

The SP3 will have options that include a single HDMI input and output with no scaling, six in/ 2 out HDMI with no scaling, and 6 in/ 2 out with scaling.

I want mine with option number one. I'll add the Edge to do scaling and switching.

Bryston says that the SP3 will be out around spring or summer of '09.
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Old 09-09-2008, 10:37 AM
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Originally Posted by MovieMusicBox View Post

I highly doubt it will be $499. It's a hefty machine and the building cost looks much higher than their $399 DV-983H. With the blue laser cost still high (BD-ROM drives are $100 - $150 more than DVD-ROM drives)

Consumer PC BD-ROM drives from Sony can be had for $120 and combo BD/HD DVD drives from LG goes for $130. I think the price for BD-ROM drive for large volume manufacturer would be no more than $100 at most. If Oppo prices these players at $600 or higher, they are not going to sell very many after the first week. It needs to be priced at no more than $500 to compete with $300 Sony and Panasonic players this winter.

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Old 09-09-2008, 10:50 AM
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Originally Posted by xradman View Post

If Oppo prices these players at $600 or higher, they are not going to sell very many after the first week. It needs to be priced at no more than $500 to compete with $300 Sony and Panasonic players this winter.

I don't know about that. First, it's offering a feature set that I doubt we'll bee from Sony or Panasonic at all. Second, I recall a lot of comments suggesting that a DVD player released in early 2008 for $350 or more (much less $400) would never sell in significant numbers, and yet the 983H was back-ordered for at least the first four months it was in production due to higher-than-expected demand.

The BDP-83 is not a player that will fit every need - but it looks like it has the potential to fit a need that has so far been largely unfilled.

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Old 09-09-2008, 12:13 PM
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Originally Posted by gonk View Post

I don't know about that. First, it's offering a feature set that I doubt we'll bee from Sony or Panasonic at all. Second, I recall a lot of comments suggesting that a DVD player released in early 2008 for $350 or more (much less $400) would never sell in significant numbers, and yet the 983H was back-ordered for at least the first four months it was in production due to higher-than-expected demand.

The BDP-83 is not a player that will fit every need - but it looks like it has the potential to fit a need that has so far been largely unfilled.

I agree.
I'll be in for one.

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Old 09-09-2008, 12:28 PM
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is there a chance it will do 1080/24p for DVDs?

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Old 09-09-2008, 01:47 PM
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Originally Posted by cvye View Post

is there a chance it will do 1080/24p for DVDs?

No idea. That depends almost entirely on the capabilities of the MPEG decoder.

Gary
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Old 09-09-2008, 02:09 PM
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Originally Posted by cvye View Post

is there a chance it will do 1080/24p for DVDs?

I'll be rooting for this, as well. It will ease my concerns when my Toshiba HD-XA2, which is my primary SD DVD player, conks out in the future.
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Old 09-09-2008, 02:19 PM
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Originally Posted by cvye View Post

is there a chance it will do 1080/24p for DVDs?

Do the Oppo DVD players do this now? If so, I would think it's likely. If not, who knows?

Brian
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Old 09-09-2008, 02:43 PM
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Technically the ABT2010 they are using in the recent batches of the DV-983H can do this. But OPPO is restricting the ABT2010 chipset to the ABT102/1018 specifications.

As for the BDP-83, who knows. Much of the functionality of the player has not been talked about, so you will have to wait for more definite information to leave OPPO's tight lips.
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Old 09-09-2008, 02:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Neuromancer View Post

Technically the ABT2010 they are using in the recent batches of the DV-983H can do this. But OPPO is restricting the ABT2010 chipset to the ABT102/1018 specifications.

As for the BDP-83, who knows. Much of the functionality of the player has not been talked about, so you will have to wait for more definite information to leave OPPO's tight lips.

If it uses the same video chipset as the 983 it will have the same short sighted DSD pass through limitation, the same thing that has been used as an excuse by the major manufacturers to keep SACD playback off the feature list. I suppose the DSD to PCM hack is better than nothing, but not what it should be.
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Old 09-09-2008, 03:06 PM
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Originally Posted by cvye View Post

is there a chance it will do 1080/24p for DVDs?

DVDs (SD video) is encoded as a 720 x 480, interlaced, 30 fps video. Only Blu-Ray (and the defunct HD-DVD) HD movie formats are encoded as 1080p/24fps. Therefore, there is no benefit to, or use for, including a 1080/24 capability for SD-DVD discs.

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Old 09-09-2008, 03:18 PM
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Originally Posted by swestbom View Post

If it uses the same video chipset as the 983 it will have the same short sighted DSD pass through limitation, the same thing that has been used as an excuse by the major manufacturers to keep SACD playback off the feature list. I suppose the DSD to PCM hack is better than nothing, but not what it should be.

The DV-983H was not short sighted. The DV-983H lacks a decoder board which lacked the signal patch required to pass a DSD signal through an external HDMI transmitter (aka the ABT VRS solution).

The decoder in the BDP-83 has to be, by very nature of it being a Blu-Ray player, will be brand new. OPPO has likely shopped for a solution which can support DSD signal path to an external HDMI transmitter.

However, this is speculation. OPPO is remaining mum on the BDP-83's specifications.
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Old 09-09-2008, 03:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CT_Wiebe View Post

DVDs (SD video) is encoded as a 720 x 480, interlaced, 30 fps video. Only Blu-Ray (and the defunct HD-DVD) HD movie formats are encoded as 1080p/24fps. Therefore, there is no benefit to, or use for, including a 1080/24 capability for SD-DVD discs.

But it's not impossible to make a DVD player that reconstructs the original 24fps and outputs it as such.
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Old 09-09-2008, 04:49 PM
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Its not, but the disc is poorly mastered, then you will introduce unwanted judder as the de-interlacing/scaling solution does not have the proper cadence information to reconstruct the original frames.
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Old 09-09-2008, 06:38 PM
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Originally Posted by GSB View Post

Two reasons:
  1. Only the latest crop of receivers can decode the fancy new BD lossless audio formats. These are spendy devices, typically costing more than the player.
  2. The OPPO players are designed to do the decoding, the D-to-A conversion, and the SD upconversion very well - far better than the receiver or display, in many cases, unless you're willing to spend considerably more.

There are other choices for transport-only players, making competition very stiff for OPPO.

However, I agree that there are plenty of people who are looking for transport-only players, and would be happier to spend a bit more for an OPPO, because they are phenominal players, and they support all kinds of formats, like SACD, DVD-A, etc.

Gary

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For some, a pure transport would be a great fit, but there are also a significant number of people with receivers or processors that lack HDMI audio inputs. For them, the only way to make use of DD+, TrueHD, or DTS-HD is via the multichannel analog input on their processor - and in more than a few cases, that input is already tied up with a DVD-A/SACD player.

Also, as far as decoding the new formats, there are even fewer receivers that support that capability - but there are also cases where you cannot use certain extra features at all without supporting internal decoding. Any time the player is called to combine two audio sources (something that was done routinely on HD-DVD titles and is also supported by Blu-ray), you have to be able to decode the bitstream first.

I forget if I said it in this thread or another one, but it makes sense to do a player like the BDP-83 first and then have a platform that can be scaled back relatively quickly to serve as a digital transport only - the first product introduced would offer the greatest flexibility and be more likely to stand out from the crowd as far as features go, while the development time for a player that "weeded out" some features would be shorter than for one that tried to add lots of new hardware.

I think many of us here are pretty passionate about dedicate system--individual components that does one thing well. A transport like OPPO will offer the best video and digital audio stream. Likewise the display unit and the pre/pro(receiver). I would argue that anyone who is savvy enough to read and post these forums don't have a pre/pro in their system...granted that the pre/pro(receiver) does not have all the latest codecs, even so, it's just a matter of time that the pre/pro itself will be upgraded. It's only in our nature to keep up with latest and greatest tech

I mean HDMI was the answer to simplify cable management. So now you want to go back and use 8+1 cables? Furthermore, as gonk said, most pre/pro(receiver) has only 1 MC analog input, so if you have more than one components with MC analog out (ie 983, 970, 981?), now you need another MC switch...URHG...I'll hold my peace now.

I vote for transport only ...anyone?
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Old 09-09-2008, 06:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CT_Wiebe View Post

DVDs (SD video) is encoded as a 720 x 480, interlaced, 30 fps video. Only Blu-Ray (and the defunct HD-DVD) HD movie formats are encoded as 1080p/24fps. Therefore, there is no benefit to, or use for, including a 1080/24 capability for SD-DVD discs.

This is only partially true. Film-based movies are typically stored as 24p progressive frames on the DVD. However, the DVD standard specifies an interlaced output, so the flags recorded on the DVD tell the MPEG decoder how to interlace those progressive frames for 60i, using the 3-2 pull-down process. An MPEG decoder could conceivably be designed to ignore those flags and display the progressive frames, but if the DVD suddenly switches to interlaced frames during a bad edit, the image goes haywire, and the MPEG decoder cannot tell the difference.

Another alternative, is for the de-interlacing chip to reconstruct 24p from the interlaced fields, but that can also go haywire if cadences suddenly switch. Nevertheless, 24p output from DVD is possible, and some players can already do this. How well, I don't know. The benefit is smoother motion.

Gary
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Old 09-09-2008, 06:57 PM
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Originally Posted by GSB View Post

This is only partially true. Film-based movies are typically stored as 24p progressive frames on the DVD. However, the DVD standard specifies an interlaced output, so the flags recorded on the DVD tell the MPEG decoder how to interlace those progressive frames for 60i, using the 3-2 pull-down process. An MPEG decoder could conceivably be designed to ignore those flags and display the progressive frames, but if the DVD suddenly switches to interlaced frames during a bad edit, the image goes haywire, and the MPEG decoder cannot tell the difference.

Another alternative, is for the de-interlacing chip to reconstruct 24p from the interlaced fields, but that can also go haywire if cadences suddenly switch. Nevertheless, 24p output from DVD is possible, and some players can already do this. How well, I don't know.

Gary

Toshiba XA2 currently does this. Images from upconverted film based SD DVDs are beautiful without any 3:2 judder. Only downside is that menu and any video based DVDs look terrible. However, once you get past the menu, the resulting output is simply outstanding.

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Old 09-09-2008, 07:07 PM
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Originally Posted by xradman View Post

Toshiba XA2 currently does this. Images from upconverted film based SD DVDs are beautiful without any 3:2 judder. Only downside is that menu and any video based DVDs look terrible. However, once you get past the menu, the resulting output is simply outstanding.

Maybe Toshiba corrected this, but when I had the XA2 in January I saw a number of artifacts watching film-based DVD at 1080p/24.

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Old 09-09-2008, 07:21 PM
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I love my current OPPO.

I wish these players would network to my HTPC or a storage USB drive and have a nice library function. My OPPO has USB 1.0 and it barely plays a thumbdrive movie.

I think we should all help them with their marketing research, where they admit the pricing is still in flux.

I'd pay $350 and that is my number.
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Old 09-09-2008, 07:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xradman View Post

Toshiba XA2 currently does this. Images from upconverted film based SD DVDs are beautiful without any 3:2 judder. Only downside is that menu and any video based DVDs look terrible. However, once you get past the menu, the resulting output is simply outstanding.

The menus were worse than terrible on disks like the Star Wars series -- they were simply unusual. I wonder if the other implementations figured out how to get this part right.
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Old 09-09-2008, 07:55 PM
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Originally Posted by soyuppy View Post

I think many of us here are pretty passionate about dedicate system--individual components that does one thing well. A transport like OPPO will offer the best video and digital audio stream. Likewise the display unit and the pre/pro(receiver). I would argue that anyone who is savvy enough to read and post these forums don't have a pre/pro in their system...granted that the pre/pro(receiver) does not have all the latest codecs, even so, it's just a matter of time that the pre/pro itself will be upgraded. It's only in our nature to keep up with latest and greatest tech

I mean HDMI was the answer to simplify cable management. So now you want to go back and use 8+1 cables? Furthermore, as gonk said, most pre/pro(receiver) has only 1 MC analog input, so if you have more than one components with MC analog out (ie 983, 970, 981?), now you need another MC switch...URHG...I'll hold my peace now.

I vote for transport only ...anyone?

I am with you.
Multi-channel output is looking backward and hard to accomodate multiple sources.

It seems now that all Blu-Ray players have figured out that you should have bitstream support. Now, we need them to wake up and provice source direct for video. And Voila, we have a transport.

How hard is it to understand that we want a player that plays the shinny 5 inch disks that are still being produced. Many manufactures do not support DVD+R/W

- Rich

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Old 09-09-2008, 08:10 PM
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Another vote for transport only.
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