Theories on the pervasive BD playback failures?? - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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post #91 of 210 Old 10-27-2008, 05:40 AM
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Originally Posted by HTsin1983 View Post

Again, excellent point.

As I said in my other posts in this thread, a lack of communication between the hardware and software people.

I would hope that the blue ray association is reading this excellent material here and call for a conference as soon as possible.


I would like to thank everybody for their excellent prospectives on this important issue.

You act like this is the first time this has happened. This has been going on every few months for about a year now. The BDA knows about this crap, and in all honesty, I don't think they care. I'm tired of having to wait for new firmware, just to watch a movie. I've just about stopped buying BDs, and tell friends and family to hold off on buying into it because of this crap. I don't know why some people insist on defending this incompetence, but I've had enough. There is no excuse for this.
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post #92 of 210 Old 10-27-2008, 06:09 AM
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Originally Posted by thebland View Post

Fair points but it doesn't explain why Samsung, an early player, had numerous issues (as did the initial Sony's). Likely the Sammy sold far more than the BD-10 as it had a MSRP of $1300. But your points seem reasonable but really makes the authoring houses look out of date as those initial players are almost 3 years old now and 20 or more BD players have hit the seen! You'd have to assume they only have their original players in house to test with.

I will second ruined position, It is a Qc issue. Why does all the 5 james bound load without issue on my 05 with release 1.08 while FYEO jam when loading java and stop there.

They are all using the same java stuff.

It is not tolerences in the manufacturing of either the disks or the player since everyone with 1.08 on the 51 or 05 is experiencing the same issue.

It is always working on the PS3 because this is the first place it is tested.
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post #93 of 210 Old 10-27-2008, 06:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Charles R View Post

My understanding is based on a player's profile it may or may not support certain features. This could explain why older players have less issues... they simply aren't running the fancy code. Processing power isn't an issue unless you are concerned about how long it takes the code to run. Luckily computers don't quit in the middle of a job. Although it does get rather ugly if it hasn't been told what to do with the code (via firmware).

Good point.
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post #94 of 210 Old 10-27-2008, 06:10 AM
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Originally Posted by HarrisonS View Post

Warner Bros. has produced lots of Blu-ray discs without any Javascript, and they load quickly, and have all they menus they need. I propose a new spec for the Blu-ray format: NO JAVASCRIPT ALLOWED!

Where do I vote for this
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post #95 of 210 Old 10-27-2008, 06:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tundrSQ View Post

So here we are 3 years later, and it is still not time to pull the trigger on a blu-ray player?

I was about to order the sammy 1500 because its so cheap, but it seems like I would be disappointed?

I experience significant reliability issues with the Samsung. Avoid Samsung if possible.

I use a Pioneer BDP-HD1 for 2 years without issues.

I have now Pioneer BDP-05FD with firmware 1.08 and it wook flawlessly on over 20 titles with only 1 issues, It refure to load FYEO. It is an issue with the title that will be fix with the next firmware upgrade.

The image quality of the player is the best I saw up to know. This worth in my opion to have to deal with a title not playing for a few weeks.
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post #96 of 210 Old 10-27-2008, 06:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mlaun View Post

Before accusing me of going on hearsay consider this:

I ran intensive tests at local dealers wanting to buy one to replace the PS3.
I tested a number of players, among them the newer sonys ( 350 - 550 ) and the new Pioneer (call LX71 over here). I spent a total of app. 4 Hrs testing, not including the time to drive to the stores or the time researching.

Load times for CD's and DVD's were not up to par as of what cheapo DVD players can do.


This is why a lot us are using dedicated DVD player (most are using 980H from Oppo) because they are cheap and so fast.
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post #97 of 210 Old 10-27-2008, 06:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tolstoi View Post

I experience significant reliability issues with the Samsung. Avoid Samsung if possible.

I use a Pioneer BDP-HD1 for 2 years without issues.

I have now Pioneer BDP-05FD with firmware 1.08 and it wook flawlessly on over 20 titles with only 1 issues, It refure to load FYEO. It is an issue with the title that will be fix with the next firmware upgrade.

The image quality of the player is the best I saw up to know. This worth in my opion to have to deal with a title not playing for a few weeks.

PQ for Blu-ray movies in 1080p24 is about the same for all the players. There are differences in upconversion, deinterlacing, build qualities, and load times, but any perceived differences in image quality for 1080p24 is similar to perceived differences for ultra expensive power cords IMO.

Addicted to shiny round discs with HD content

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post #98 of 210 Old 10-27-2008, 09:08 AM
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Is it just me or is it way easier to just watch a SD dvd...

If it weren't for my PS3 I would have given up on Blu-ray a long time ago... And I am not kidding...

For my latest Reviews and Stuff google -> Joe Rod Home Theater .Com
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post #99 of 210 Old 10-27-2008, 10:20 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 42Plasmaman View Post

People with older PS3 FW have reported issues with Bond playback but updating to current FW resolved the issue.

So, we all know the PS3 has enough horsepower & memory so these play back issues seems to come down to SW implementations of features on the discs that aren't compatible with certain player FW.
Then the player maufacturer is either blind sided or burdened with creating a FW update to resolve the issue.

I agree that at this point, there needs to be a standard disc format for feature/DRM that doesn't cause these issues.

If these issues continue during/after Xmas, it's not going to look good for blu-ray especially if consumers just start returning discs because they are not aware of FW updates or care not ro perform them that may or may not resolve the issue.

It's sad though that new players like the Samsung 1500 are having these issues.

I'm still mistified on what www.blufocus.com is doing to test these discs and pass the info on to the player manufacturers.

I returned my Samsung 1500, it seems ridiculous that need to constantly update firmware to be able to play the new releases. I have owned 3 HD DVD players and only updated once, there have been 3 updates since and all of my discs play. No matter what they are SD DVD's, HD DVD's, burned discs...whatever.

I will buy a PS3 in a few months, I will not buy a BR standalone.
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post #100 of 210 Old 10-27-2008, 10:25 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mlaun View Post

OH MY GOD! NO THANK YOU!

As to the problems, my 2 cents.

1 - The format isn't working 'period' Who cares why.

2 - Most BluRay players have trouble loading normal dvd's or music CD's within a reasonable time frame. Ergo: there is a fundamental problem with most players as cheapo dvd players have no problems.

That is pretty funny, you can go and buy a $29.99 DVD player from Wal-mart and it will play anything you throw at it. You go and buy a $300-$1,000 BR player and it can't play anywhere near as much as the $29.99 DVD player. It has been how many years? This may have been acceptable for the first year, but not at this point. I have had way too many issues with Sony products in the past, this seems no different.
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post #101 of 210 Old 10-27-2008, 10:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dysfunction26 View Post

I returned my Samsung 1500, it seems ridiculous that need to constantly update firmware to be able to play the new releases. I have owned 3 HD DVD players and only updated once, there have been 3 updates since and all of my discs play. No matter what they are SD DVD's, HD DVD's, burned discs...whatever.

I will buy a PS3 in a few months, I will not buy a BR standalone.

You will need to update the firmware on the PS3 about 4 times a year as well.

The difference is that the studios don't release until there's been enough testing on the PS3 to know that new PS3 firmware will play the disc. I.e., the needed firmware updates for the PS3 come out BEFORE the discs get sold. The V2.50 firmware Sony just released for the PS3 has undoubtedly been tested with respect to the titles coming out of the major studios between now and January.

Sometimes the testing results in Sony fixing/changing their software, and sometimes the testing results in the studios pulling back on what they intended to do differently in the new discs, but it all happens before the discs come out. In essence, the PS3 has become the de facto standard defining what Blu-Ray actually is at the moment.

----------------------------------

Even if there were no compatibility issues whatsoever, you would STILL need to update the firmware periodically as that's how updated encryption keys get distributed to existing players. If you never update your firmware, eventually new discs will stop playing simply because the player doesn't have the necessary decryption data installed to understand the latest discs.

This is true for EVERY Blu-Ray player now and in the future. Welcome to the industry's response to SD-DVD ripping.
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post #102 of 210 Old 10-27-2008, 10:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dysfunction26 View Post

That is pretty funny, you can go and buy a $29.99 DVD player from Wal-mart and it will play anything you throw at it. You go and buy a $300-$1,000 BR player and it can't play anywhere near as much as the $29.99 DVD player. It has been how many years? This may have been acceptable for the first year, but not at this point. I have had way too many issues with Sony products in the past, this seems no different.

There is an enormous difference between what is being done on DVDs and on Blu disks. Also, when DVD was the up and coming format it also had similar issues. It was even worse then because they didn't have firmware that could be user updated, so the units had to be shipped back to the manufacturer to be updated. I remember perusing all the forums way back when I bought my first DVD player, to see which ones were having the fewest problems.
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post #103 of 210 Old 10-27-2008, 10:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dysfunction26 View Post

That is pretty funny, you can go and buy a $29.99 DVD player from Wal-mart and it will play anything you throw at it. You go and buy a $300-$1,000 BR player and it can't play anywhere near as much as the $29.99 DVD player. It has been how many years? This may have been acceptable for the first year, but not at this point. I have had way too many issues with Sony products in the past, this seems no different.

If you look back at the history of standard DVDs you will easily discover that they *ALSO* went through years of problems -- and SD-DVD is a lot less complicated format.

There were whole websites (pretty much defunct now) devoted to cataloging which discs had problems with which players and whether the solution was to get a replacement disc from the studio, new firmware from the player manufacturer, or to just give up (or get a different player) because nobody was willing to fix the problem.

There are significant aspects of the SD-DVD "standard" that major studios simply don't try to use when they author SD-DVD discs because they have learned over the years that these features only exist on paper. Players don't actually implement them and never have. What sets the de facto standard for SD-DVD are the widely used authoring tools that have, over time, restricted themselves to the portions of the "standard" that players actually implement.
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post #104 of 210 Old 10-27-2008, 10:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dysfunction26 View Post

That is pretty funny, you can go and buy a $29.99 DVD player from Wal-mart and it will play anything you throw at it. You go and buy a $300-$1,000 BR player and it can't play anywhere near as much as the $29.99 DVD player. It has been how many years? This may have been acceptable for the first year, but not at this point. I have had way too many issues with Sony products in the past, this seems no different.

I have an 11 yr old DVD player that still works just fine and fast and has played ever DVD i ever threw at it. Never dreamed that the kind of issues we are now having with BR Players even existed. Just don't need the new kind of 'reliability' to get ads and spam thrown at me.

But i do want a nice quality HD Player that just works. Guess I'm old fashioned!
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post #105 of 210 Old 10-27-2008, 10:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mlaun View Post

I have an 11 yr old DVD player that still works just fine and fast and has played ever DVD i ever threw at it. Never dreamed that the kind of issues we are now having with BR Players even existed. Just don't need the new kind of 'reliability' to get ads and spam thrown at me.

But i do want a nice quality HD Player that just works. Guess I'm old fashioned!

You were also smart to wait until AFTER SD-DVD settled down.

Yes, it's been a while and people forget, but it was the Wild West out there in SD-DVD land back when the first "progressive" players were coming out.

Blu-Ray is still an "early adopter" technology. Heck the spec just stopped changing this year! It takes a while for the authoring tools to catch on to which portions of the spec players are actually implementing, and what problems result from the different processor performance levels in players at different price points and of different vintages. It also takes a while for the high degree of integration to happen in chips to make this stuff "commodity" technology (so things stop changing so fast).

At present, studios are still trying to figure out just how far they can go when authoring discs, and whether that will change when more powerful, more sophisticated players ship, or whether everyone will agree to constrain themselves only to what older, slower players can do

The painless experience you are looking for is likely still a couple years off.

In the interim, there are really REALLY good reasons to stick with players that have high performance, a large installed base, and a track record of rapid and timely firmware updates. (Pssst! Think PS3.)
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post #106 of 210 Old 10-27-2008, 11:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Pariseau View Post

In the interim, there are really REALLY good reasons to stick with players that have high performance, a large installed base, and a track record of rapid and timely firmware updates. (Pssst! Think PS3.)
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...and don't forget to think "new hdmi receiver" too, or you won't have an option for lossless audio.
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post #107 of 210 Old 10-27-2008, 11:12 AM
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I've been in the technology industry for 24 years. The lines of software code in consumer devices has exploded. 10 years ago a consumer product would have 10s of thousands of lines of code. Significant to debug, but doable in a consumer product time horizon. Today products have millions of lines of code, and the product cycles are shorter all the time. Most consumer products have around 1 year of life in the market. The competition to get the latest out gives the developers a few months to develop and debug the SW and there just isn't time given the amount of code.

I used to be an early adopter and I had some high end stuff. My all time stupidest decision was buying a Proceed PMDT DVD player, a $6000 machine. When it would play a DVD the picture was amazing, sadly it never played more than 90% of the disks.

Business model wise, building and supporting a low volume esoteric player is nearly impossible. There just isn't enough revenue to fund the SW development and debug. Plus, the titles are authored to a moving target. The studios test the disks on the most popular players, but never on the esoteric players.

I haven't bought Blue-Ray yet, and won't until it's rock solid on the highest volume player at a minimum. If a disk won't play on a PS3, what the heck is a studio thinking?
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post #108 of 210 Old 10-27-2008, 11:19 AM
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RE: the PS3. I have had to do 3 firmware updates for movies in the 9 months I have owned it and 1 firmware update for the ONLY game I ever purchased to play on it. It appears they have firmware updates for specific games too.

These 1 hour long firmware update sessions are getting old.
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post #109 of 210 Old 10-27-2008, 11:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Jensen View Post

I haven't bought Blue-Ray yet, and won't until it's rock solid on the highest volume player at a minimum. If a disk won't play on a PS3, what the heck is a studio thinking?

The anecdotes about major release discs not playing on the PS3 fall into 3 classes:

1) A damaged disc (typically a rental disc).

2) A broken PS3 (hardware, not software failure).

3) A PS3 that has not had its firmware updated as and when new firmware comes out (user error). A network connected PS3 is trivial to update. With a broadband connection, updates complete in around 15 minutes. Expect on the order of 4 updates per year -- one a quarter.

Even the recent "Iron Man" Blu-Ray release that was actually RECALLED and replaced by the studio for failure to play on some players played on the PS3 without problem (using the recommended settings in the PS3 FAQ sticky thread here).

At the moment the PS3 sets the bar for disc compatibility at launch of new disc titles (presuming you let the player do firmware updates when it wants to). It's not clear who comes in second from the reports here. My guess would be Panasonic.
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post #110 of 210 Old 10-27-2008, 11:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Jensen View Post

My all time stupidest decision was buying a Proceed PMDT DVD player, a $6000 machine. When it would play a DVD the picture was amazing, sadly it never played more than 90% of the disks.

I know someone who owned that player. He would rave about its "reference" audio/video quality, despite its constant freezing, loud transport noise, and numerous other playback problems. He was in serious denial, and he still is to this day about any overpriced gear he buys.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dysfunction26 View Post

I returned my Samsung 1500, it seems ridiculous that need to constantly update firmware to be able to play the new releases. I have owned 3 HD DVD players and only updated once, there have been 3 updates since and all of my discs play. No matter what they are SD DVD's, HD DVD's, burned discs...whatever.

I will buy a PS3 in a few months, I will not buy a BR standalone.

I have a 40 GB PS3, which IMO is the greatest invention since "sliced bread."

What about Sony's BDP-S550? If/when I buy an HD AVR I'm thinking of adding this dedicated BD player to my HT.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Pariseau View Post

You will need to update the firmware on the PS3 about 4 times a year as well.

The difference is that the studios don't release until there's been enough testing on the PS3 to know that new PS3 firmware will play the disc. I.e., the needed firmware updates for the PS3 come out BEFORE the discs get sold. The V2.50 firmware Sony just released for the PS3 has undoubtedly been tested with respect to the titles coming out of the major studios between now and January.

Sometimes the testing results in Sony fixing/changing their software, and sometimes the testing results in the studios pulling back on what they intended to do differently in the new discs, but it all happens before the discs come out. In essence, the PS3 has become the de facto standard defining what Blu-Ray actually is at the moment.

----------------------------------

Even if there were no compatibility issues whatsoever, you would STILL need to update the firmware periodically as that's how updated encryption keys get distributed to existing players. If you never update your firmware, eventually new discs will stop playing simply because the player doesn't have the necessary decryption data installed to understand the latest discs.

This is true for EVERY Blu-Ray player now and in the future. Welcome to the industry's response to SD-DVD ripping.
--Bob

At least the PS3 has Wi-fi, which makes updating simple. The average person isn't going to burn an ISO image to a disc, or use a flash drive to update their player, or even update it via Wi-fi, unless it does it automatically.

I don't even know if BR will catch on fast enough, HD downloads are knocking on BR's door. The Blockbuster I rent at knows little about BR and they say they hardly rent any in comparison to standard DVD. They have both sides of 1 aisle dedicated to BR and a PS3 display setup in the store. They have 4 copies of Iron Man and 4 of The Incredible Hulk, just to give you an idea. I had no problem renting both of those films on BR, I rented Hulk on the day after it was released, all of the SD DVD copies were out (over 150 discs).
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post #113 of 210 Old 10-27-2008, 12:25 PM
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There's a whole market of folks out there who are not comfortable updating the firmware in a product regardless of how easy it might be. Those folks are likely going to either abandon Blu-Ray when new discs stop playing or, if the industry gets its wish, replace their "broken" Blu-Ray player with a shiny new Blu-Ray player that will last yet another 6 months or so before new discs stop playing.

It's a very dangerous game the studios and player manufacturers are playing right now. At some point they need to break out of the "early adopters" to get the sales volumes up, but the mass market has not been conditioned to think having to do regular maintenance on purchased consumer electronics product (e.g., firmware updates) is their responsibility.

The WORST of it right now is that the CE pipeline is long enough -- and the need for firmware updates so pressing -- that players on store shelves likely ALREADY have outdated firmware installed. They are already wrong out of the box! New discs are "newer" than new players!

Try to explain to Grandma that the first thing she has to do with her new Christmas present is update its firmware....
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post #114 of 210 Old 10-27-2008, 12:49 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Pariseau View Post

There's a whole market of folks out there who are not comfortable updating the firmware in a product regardless of how easy it might be. Those folks are likely going to either abandon Blu-Ray when new discs stop playing or, if the industry gets its wish, replace their "broken" Blu-Ray player with a shiny new Blu-Ray player that will last yet another 6 months or so before new discs stop playing.

It's a very dangerous game the studios and player manufacturers are playing right now. At some point they need to break out of the "early adopters" to get the sales volumes up, but the mass market has not been conditioned to think having to do regular maintenance on purchased consumer electronics product (e.g., firmware updates) is their responsibility.

The WORST of it right now is that the CE pipeline is long enough -- and the need for firmware updates so pressing -- that players on store shelves likely ALREADY have outdated firmware installed. They are already wrong out of the box! New discs are "newer" than new players!

Try to explain to Grandma that the first thing she has to do with her new Christmas present is update its firmware....
--Bob

Does anyone really believe that Grandma gives a hoot about watching movies on Blu-ray disc with BD players that can cost upwards of $1000?

In the grand scheme of things, Blu-ray & HDTV still occupy a rather small segment of the CE market and these players are targeted towards the younger, more affluent, consumer who is adept with using computers, gadgets & gizmos.
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post #115 of 210 Old 10-27-2008, 12:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by optivity View Post

Does anyone really believe that Grandma gives a hoot about watching movies on Blu-ray disc with BD players that can cost upwards of $1000?

In the grand scheme of things, Blu-ray & HDTV still occupy a rather small segment of the CE market and these players are targeted towards the younger, more affluent, consumer who is adept with using computers, gadgets & gizmos.

I'd say that's a definition of a niche market, which BDA does not want to see Blu-ray in. When was the last time you updated FW on your in-car DVD player, portable DVD player, standalone DVD player, or even the DVD player in your PC? Until Blu-ray gets to that level of reliability, it's going to have trouble becoming a mainstream product.

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post #116 of 210 Old 10-27-2008, 01:01 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by optivity View Post

Does anyone really believe that Grandma gives a hoot about watching movies on Blu-ray disc with BD players that can cost upwards of $1000?

In the grand scheme of things, Blu-ray & HDTV still occupy a rather small segment of the CE market and these players are targeted towards the younger, more affluent, consumer who is adept with using computers, gadgets & gizmos.

I thought about 60% of the U.S. has a HD capable television, that doesn't seem like a small market to me. If BR was going after the tech savvy person, then they are playing to a very small market and are destined for failure. The technology should have worked right after the first generation. My first DVD player was a 2nd generation Panasonic player, it played every disc I rented, or owned. Firmware should not have been a necessary thing, it should be optional.
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post #117 of 210 Old 10-27-2008, 01:13 PM
 
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I agree with you guy's. Most consumers who can buy a DVD player for $50 will not be enticed to spend $500 for a problematic BD player.

AVS Forum participants are one exception to this rule.

If my wife had it her way, I would not have spent $$,$$$.00 on HD gear, but I am a "geek" and proud to be one.
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post #118 of 210 Old 10-27-2008, 01:13 PM
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This firmware upgrade thing is ridiculous and could lead to the death of bluray. As familiar as I am with technology, I don't wanna buy something that may require updates every so often. I never had to do that with dvd.
I don't give a rat's ass about a miilion and one features. I just want exceptional PQ.
Why is it I could have gotten a $30 dvd player from a discount store 10 years ago that plays everything and this new fangled crap has me concerned that it may need upgrades right after purchase. That is not advancing technology. It's completely ass backwards!
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post #119 of 210 Old 10-27-2008, 01:18 PM
 
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If Bill Gates can invent automatic updates for his Windows operating system(s), why can't A/V manufacturers push out a firmware update once in a while too?

My PS3 is a 'snap' to update, even with being challenged by the Sixaxis controller.
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post #120 of 210 Old 10-27-2008, 01:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by discopaul View Post

Why is it I could have gotten a $30 dvd player from a discount store 10 years ago that plays everything and this new fangled crap has me concerned that it may need upgrades right after purchase. That is not advancing technology.

Very simple answer. Blu-ray players are designed to be interactive. Unfortunately many people want to use them in ways they were never intended to be used and feel something isn't right. Nothing is wrong they simply aren't DVD players (regardless of how hard you wish they were).
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