Theories on the pervasive BD playback failures?? - Page 7 - AVS Forum
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post #181 of 210 Old 10-28-2008, 05:05 PM
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Originally Posted by rdclark View Post


Personally, as a veteran of the Laserdisc era, I'm entirely comfortable with a niche format that has the obvious high-end benefits and still relatively low cost of Blu-ray. But I am concerned that sales remain healthy enough that the continuance of the format isn't threatened. For this to happen, the platform has to be functionally mature.

As another veteran of the LaserDisc era ( ), I agree with you as well.

In order to have a platform that is functionally mature, the software has to be standardized between the hardware platforms.

Think about a popular computer program that is written to work on different operating systems, windows, mac, unix, sun, etc. For example, for some reason it will not run on a Linix OS which is based upon the Unix operating system. Now, the Linix folks will have to write a fix in order to for it work since the software company would not do it because it will not be economical for them.

For example, The movie studio releases a very popular film which works on 5 different blu-ray player from various CE manufacture and does not work on 2 players with one from the same manufacture that works on different model and other from completely different CE manufacture. Currently, in order for the movie to work the CE have to write the code not the studio, because at present you can not update the movie disc unless studio are will to accept the trade-in.

At the present, we are now looking at anywhere between 95% to 99% success with blu-ray playback or one in every 100 discs has a problem. However, IMHO, with 3 different blu-ray profiles players and the increasing complex software coming from the studios, more problems will surface within this cycle. Down the road, 1st & 2 nd generation players that had least problems could very well have there share of newer problems.

This why I say it is important to have standards.
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post #182 of 210 Old 10-28-2008, 05:18 PM
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Originally Posted by markrubin View Post

disagree: DVD has been around a long, long time and HD VOD still has a long way to go to be considered mainstream: BD audio and picture quality will trump any VOD for many years

I watch roughly 25% VOD 70% DVD 5% BD. As HD VOD becomes more popular, BD might never even reach the market penetration of DVD. Sure it has the best quality (for now) that's why I have a BD player, but so did betamax, laserdisk, HD-DVD, etc...
There is an initiative among ISPs to have fiberoptic lines to every home. The bandwidth of mainstream internet connection would then be more than enough to support fast BD quality downloads, not just VOD. I respect your right to disagree, but I think there are far more homes with internet than BD players and that will not change unless solid performance, standardization, and reasonable prices become a more serious priority with the manufacturers, and yes the studios too. As another poster has already said, BD is in danger of being marginalized into a niche product.
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post #183 of 210 Old 10-28-2008, 05:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Ruined View Post

bland, here is your answer.

I have word from an insider close to the source that the playback failure of 007 For Your Eyes Only is due to an authoring error - a corrupt JAR file that some players can deal with and others cannot. Not due to BD+, lack of processing power, etc, but rather a problematic JAR file. FYI for all those involved.

If you have an issue with playback, I found this number to report disc issues that should help:
1-888-223-2FOX


I'll buy you a cup of coffee if you can tell me what JAR file means.

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post #184 of 210 Old 10-28-2008, 05:20 PM
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Originally Posted by tripleM View Post

I'll buy you a cup of coffee if you can tell me what JAR file means.

Java ARchive

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JAR_file

Vote with your wallet. Don't buy Cinavia-infected Blu-ray Discs! Why pay a premium for pseudo-lossless audio damaged by an intrusive watermark in the audible spectrum?
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post #185 of 210 Old 10-28-2008, 05:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Slumberer View Post

... but I think there are far more homes with internet than BD players and that will not change unless solid performance, standardization, and reasonable prices become a more serious priority with the manufacturers, and yes the studios too. As another poster has already said, BD is in danger of being marginalized into a niche product.

Very well stated.
As I said during the war, DVD's will be the 800 lb gorilla that will be tough to move not HD. & With VOD gaining ground everyday, BR may have a very short shelf life - shorter still - if these gaffs keep continuing on their biggest releases.

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post #186 of 210 Old 10-28-2008, 05:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruined View Post

Java ARchive

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JAR_file

j/k with pun intended analogy to COFFEE earlier...

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post #187 of 210 Old 10-28-2008, 05:24 PM
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Originally Posted by tripleM View Post

j/k with pun intended analogy to COFFEE earlier...


Vote with your wallet. Don't buy Cinavia-infected Blu-ray Discs! Why pay a premium for pseudo-lossless audio damaged by an intrusive watermark in the audible spectrum?
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post #188 of 210 Old 10-29-2008, 02:22 AM
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when sacd was introduced most people were more interested in MP3 players. Convenience was more important then sound quality.
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post #189 of 210 Old 10-29-2008, 01:54 PM
 
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Originally Posted by mlaun View Post

when sacd was introduced most people were more interested in MP3 players. Convenience was more important then sound quality.

I would say the same for DVD vs. BR. Most people will go with what they know works, not something that needs an update 4-6 times per year.
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post #190 of 210 Old 10-29-2008, 04:43 PM
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this link was posted on the pioneer thread.

blu ray is dead
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post #191 of 210 Old 10-29-2008, 04:44 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mlaun View Post

this link was posted on the pioneer thread.

blu ray is dead

Blu Ray is dead if you have a new Pioneer...

There are more than a handful of [op amps] that sound so good that most designers want to be using them as opposed to discreet transistors. Dave Reich, Theta 2009
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post #192 of 210 Old 10-29-2008, 04:49 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mlaun View Post


blu ray is dead

Read the author's bio (here's part of it):

Robin Harris has been selling and marketing data storage for over 20 years in companies large and small.

Read the article... it is pretty clear Blu Ray storage (Sony) has left him out of their marketing team.... so he's pissed. He represents other manufacturers of data storage - not Blu Ray. Nothing from the movie side. Axe to grind.

There are more than a handful of [op amps] that sound so good that most designers want to be using them as opposed to discreet transistors. Dave Reich, Theta 2009
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post #193 of 210 Old 10-29-2008, 04:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thebland View Post

Read the author's bio (here's part of it):

Robin Harris has been selling and marketing data storage for over 20 years in companies large and small.

Read the article... it is pretty clear Blu Ray storage (Sony) has left him out of their marketing team.... so he's pissed. He represents other manufacturers of data storage - not Blu Ray. Nothing from the movie side. Axe to grind.

Sounds like someone moved the cheese on him and he not part of the feast and needs to kick up some sand on his BLOG.

2014
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post #194 of 210 Old 10-29-2008, 05:19 PM
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I wouldn't mock the post. It's one thing for the enthusiast here to think everything is fine but the real world says something else. And it's real world consumer sales that will ultimately determine the survival of blu-ray, broadbase or niche. I think the issues i and others here have raised here is really a reflection of concerns many potential customers have.

I wanna see bluray survive as I did with SED but I fear greed might kill the golden goose as it did with SED.
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post #195 of 210 Old 10-29-2008, 06:03 PM
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I think Harris' article is spot on. I have OTA HDTV and realize the best recorded programs are excellent on a 92" screen and far, FAR better than 480x. But still, a Denon 3930 sending 1080P to the Sony Ruby produces a picture that is better than I thought SD DVD could ever be. For me BR players must be full featured and functional, not in beta. Media must cover a wide range of genres at a reasonable price (~$US 25) not counting contemporary action films.

I think that if these things do not happen by next Summer BR is another "never was" and the internet cloud wins again.

"Most people would die sooner than think, in fact they do so."  Bertrand Russell The ABC of Relativity, 1925

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post #196 of 210 Old 10-29-2008, 06:21 PM
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Harris states a number of good reasons why many consumers will not make the leap from DVD to Blu-ray any time soon. This just means that Blu-ray will be a slow growing, but healthy, niche for a few more years. No surprises there to me. I bought into Blu-ray knowing that it would be a niche for a while.
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post #197 of 210 Old 10-29-2008, 06:36 PM
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Originally Posted by humbug2 View Post

I think Harris' article is spot on. I have OTA HDTV and realize the best recorded programs are excellent on a 92" screen and far, FAR better than 480x. But still, a Denon 3930 sending 1080P to the Sony Ruby produces a picture that is better than I thought SD DVD could ever be. For me BR players must be full featured and functional, not in beta. Media must cover a wide range of genres at a reasonable price (~$US 25) not counting contemporary action films.

I think that if these things do not happen by next Summer BR is another "never was" and the internet cloud wins again.

Yes, I do agree with you, that at some point in the future blu-ray will be another "never was", unless the BDA comes to their senses. As you said, "full featured and functional" is an interesting question. IMO, right now, I would like to see functional work, so I do not have to worry about the random playback issues occurring. Do we really need all those advance features that require more coding?

With regards to the INTERNET, their will be pros & cons as well, but I do see a greater following than blue-ray. In time they will find a way to increase the bandwidth to broadcast in either or both Dolby True-HD / dts - HD Master Audio.
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post #198 of 210 Old 10-29-2008, 06:54 PM
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Originally Posted by dysfunction26 View Post

I would say the same for DVD vs. BR. Most people will go with what they know works, not something that needs an update 4-6 times per year.

There isn't a Blu-ray player that doesn't play DVDs hence it's not one or the other. Before long cost wise there will be no reason for Blu-ray not to be included outside of the super cheap players. Regarding media the interactivity of Blu-ray will draw the masses. Just imagine all of the Disney games the kids will be playing endlessly.
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post #199 of 210 Old 10-29-2008, 07:10 PM
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Originally Posted by discopaul View Post

I think the issues i and others here have raised here is really a reflection of concerns many potential customers have.

I doubt the average consumer looking in to getting blu-ray knows about any potential issues we have been exposed to at AV forums.
Most of them go to the CE store and make a purchase.

It's possible that blu-ray stays at least niche for another year since we've seen that it's profitable even at the low volumes it's selling.
While it's niche, the BDA can get their act together and be more consumer friendly for the average consumer who will not tolerate periodic/frequent FW updates just to play a single title.

But hey, who knows, maybe the BDA can strong arm the studios and mandate/standardize a set of coding practices to assure all titles will play on existing players and save the fluff for new future players.


I'm also interested in what the hell www.blufocus.com is even doing since these issues still seem to be cropping up & they are supposed to be the gate keepers/QA.

2014
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post #200 of 210 Old 10-29-2008, 08:56 PM
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Originally Posted by 42Plasmaman View Post

I doubt the average consumer looking in to getting blu-ray knows about any potential issues we have been exposed to at AV forums.
Most of them go to the CE store and make a purchase.

It's possible that blu-ray stays at least niche for another year since we've seen that it's profitable even at the low volumes it's selling.
While it's niche, the BDA can get their act together and be more consumer friendly for the average consumer who will not tolerate periodic/frequent FW updates just to play a single title.

But hey, who knows, maybe the BDA can strong arm the studios and mandate/standardize a set of coding practices to assure all titles will play on existing players and save the fluff for new future players.


I'm also interested in what the hell www.blufocus.com is even doing since these issues still seem to be cropping up & they are supposed to be the gate keepers/QA.

+1

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post #201 of 210 Old 10-29-2008, 10:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 42Plasmaman View Post

While it's niche, the BDA can get their act together and be more consumer friendly for the average consumer who will not tolerate periodic/frequent FW updates just to play a single title.

But hey, who knows, maybe the BDA can strong arm the studios and mandate/standardize a set of coding practices to assure all titles will play on existing players and save the fluff for new future players.

I sincerely hope you're right plasmaman.
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post #202 of 210 Old 10-30-2008, 10:10 AM
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Originally Posted by thebland View Post

Blu Ray is dead if you have a new Pioneer...

Idon't agree with you with firmware 1.08, the stability is back to level expected from Pioneer. Not a single freeze or issues after 25 movies. Except one, FYEO.
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post #203 of 210 Old 10-30-2008, 10:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thebland View Post

Read the author's bio (here's part of it):

Robin Harris has been selling and marketing data storage for over 20 years in companies large and small.

Read the article... it is pretty clear Blu Ray storage (Sony) has left him out of their marketing team.... so he's pissed. He represents other manufacturers of data storage - not Blu Ray. Nothing from the movie side. Axe to grind.

I agree with you this is pure BS.
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post #204 of 210 Old 10-30-2008, 10:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by discopaul View Post

I wouldn't mock the post. It's one thing for the enthusiast here to think everything is fine but the real world says something else. And it's real world consumer sales that will ultimately determine the survival of blu-ray, broadbase or niche. I think the issues i and others here have raised here is really a reflection of concerns many potential customers have.

I wanna see bluray survive as I did with SED but I fear greed might kill the golden goose as it did with SED.

I don't agree with you. I have a friend who doesn't care at all about having the best setup. He went to by a 37 inches Samsung LCD TV than the salesman offer him to add to the purchase a Samsung Blu-Ray player for 99$. He said why not and just bought it. He now rent Blu-Ray when he can instead of DVDs. In fact the Blu-Ray at 99$ was probably cheaper than the extra warranty he also bought with the TV.

This is how Blu-Ray will increase its market share in the next few years with players that are cheap enough and combo offers from resellers. Players are at a price now that combo offers could make them attractive.
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post #205 of 210 Old 10-30-2008, 10:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by humbug2 View Post

I think Harris' article is spot on. I have OTA HDTV and realize the best recorded programs are excellent on a 92" screen and far, FAR better than 480x. But still, a Denon 3930 sending 1080P to the Sony Ruby produces a picture that is better than I thought SD DVD could ever be. For me BR players must be full featured and functional, not in beta. Media must cover a wide range of genres at a reasonable price (~$US 25) not counting contemporary action films.

I think that if these things do not happen by next Summer BR is another "never was" and the internet cloud wins again.


You are using an extremely expensive setup to get that results. The average customer will not spend the money to get a 3930.

The customer will not even try to look at the image quality between the two. He will buy a blu-Ray when blu-Ray players will be cheap enough for the customer to not bother too much about the price difference.

The other aspect is the B&M stores marketing. It is more attractive to sell a Combo TV and blu-ray player at an extra 100$ over the TV price than offering a free DVD player with the TV.
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post #206 of 210 Old 10-30-2008, 10:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by miata View Post

Harris states a number of good reasons why many consumers will not make the leap from DVD to Blu-ray any time soon. This just means that Blu-ray will be a slow growing, but healthy, niche for a few more years. No surprises there to me. I bought into Blu-ray knowing that it would be a niche for a while.

This is exactly what I think. The market share will grow slowly and the B&M stores will be responsible for a big part of that.
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post #207 of 210 Old 10-30-2008, 05:17 PM
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Lots of good points have already been presented, but I'd like to introduce a new one for people to think about- it all comes down to how well and how quickly your company tech team can develop/maintain the proprietary java machine that runs on the particular chipset that their players will be based on.

On a Sony ps3 platform, there will be relatively vast resources of manpower and intellectual prowess to do this. If you are somebody else, who has to come up with their own java machine and chipset, there just may not be enough resources and expertise to keep up.

Expertise will also go into how robust the error handling is on a particular java machine. It will be the difference between one company's solution croaking at the first inkling of bad code and another company's solution taking hit after hit of bad code, but still stays off the ground (not crashed). Ultimately it may not succeed on a particular function that is causing problems, but the user experience will be drastically different between something that just hard locks in response to an error and something else that just kills the offending task and moves right on to the next one. The sophistication of the error handling can make a big difference here.

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post #208 of 210 Old 10-30-2008, 05:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Mr. Hanky View Post

If you are somebody else, who has to come up with their own java machine and chipset, there just may not be enough resources and expertise to keep up.

For the JVM, there are a limited number of suppliers, with one dominating. For BD-J, except for a few large CE companies, most license their solution from primarily one supplier. This will likely change as more BD-J suppliers become available. Of course, there will be differences in when bug fixes for these are incorporated into a player firmware update, and whether or not the SoC supplier implements bug fixes themselves to ease customer support or rely on the initial supplier.

Except for major CE players, all the player firmware is already provided by the SoC suppliers, and the major CE player manufacturers will move to that model probably sometime next year.

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post #209 of 210 Old 10-30-2008, 06:49 PM
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Originally Posted by MikeSp View Post

OR the average consumer will NOT buy into Blu-ray since the image quality of SD DVDs is good enough, their players often cost ~$100, the media is often on sale at Wally World for $4-5 AND THEIR PLAYERS AND MEDIA WORK!! I had thought that the Blu-ray format had reached maturity and it was safe to purchase a stand-alone player that was reasonably high end, but if this fiasco continues, the average consumer will continue to shy away and for good reason and BD becomes a niche product. I had hoped to replace my trusty George Foreman that plays ALL BD products because it just does not look "right" in my AV cabinet with all of the other AV gear and move it next to a HD TV that is not connected to the rest of the AV toys and use it mostly for games (rather my kid would use it mostly for games).

At this point in the evolution of BD players, it is unacceptable for these issues to occur--the BD format and hardware should be stable by now.

The BD Group (or whatever it is called) needs to have a standard (Profile 1.1, 2.0 or ???) to which the movie industry must adhere and the disks be tested before being released to the public. My fear in Blu-ray winning the lop-sided format war was that it would become a niche product due to lack of acceptance by the general public and I hope that does not happen.

I wonder how the newest top end Sony, Pioneer and Panasonic BD players are working with the Bond BD disks???

MikeSp

I have a new Panasonic BD-35. I had no problem with the blu-ray Casino Royale. I am connected with HDMI, use PCM from the player to the receiver. It did not take long to load either, certainly not the 3 or more minutes I have read others posting about. I think it took less than 20 seconds, I wasn't clocking it, but it just wasn't a noticeable time.

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post #210 of 210 Old 10-30-2008, 08:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kjack View Post

Except for major CE players, all the player firmware is already provided by the SoC suppliers, and the major CE player manufacturers will move to that model probably sometime next year.

For lack of use of better terms, this is really the essence of what I was trying to convey- "whoever" is creating a jvm to support an SoC. It's only natural that some solutions will end up being better than others, get better support than others, is more aggressively maintained than others, etc. There's probably also an aspect of degree of inherent symbiosis between jvm and SoC (some hardware architectures may simply lend themselves better to running a jvm layer in the manner that we know how to code them than other architectures). I suspect that can have a great impact on how robust a given final product operates in the field.

In the end, as you also describe, manufacturers will eventually gravitate to/converge upon those solutions (jvm/chipset combinations) that consistently demonstrate to be most functionally robust plus cost competitive. Ideally, we would have reached this state very early in the lifespan of br players, but therein is the catch-22. No one can really know which choices will be the "magic ones" until manufacturers starting using them and finding out for themselves. Theoretically, they should all "work", but actual use in the field can reveal conditions that simply cannot be anticipated and debugged before the fact.

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