Official Oppo BDP-83 "Ranting about Region Coding thread" - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 193 Old 12-15-2008, 01:20 PM - Thread Starter
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So.... In no uncertain terms, it's been declared that discussion about the upcoming BDP-83 and Oppo's decision to hardware lock both BD -and- SD region coding with their new player is to be struck from the FAQ thread.

And so, I create this thread!

***********

Let's make a few things clear:

- While HD-DVD was lauded by some for the native, region free at launch status, the BDA studios and CE OEMs took another tack. HD-DVD was the product of the DVD-Forum.
- Region coding for SD technically falls under the DVD-Forum, NOT the BDA. While there are of course shared memberships, the restrictions for SD region coding are, at least intuitively (if not legally) under the purview of another organization.
- Oppo has aparently made their decision based on a challenge by the BDA, namely, that unless they lock =both= SD and BD regions to 1/A, then they will be penalized in the future.
- The source for this description of Oppo's position has been from emails posted from CSRs, and the beta testers themselves.

Some may feel that any region coding is wrong. Others feel that Oppo had no choice, and either we get a player that respects the demands of the BDA, or we're denied a player.

I'm somewhere in the middle - the real advantage of the Oppo brand is its flexibility, its comitment to its end users, and a recognition that, frankly, SD region encoding is useless. The fact that I could simply keep my -existing- Oppo player that is region free is of course a point of contention to the new normal. Equally, the fact that DVD encryption has been broken for years, making an ilegal dupe that removes Region coding operational, while my store bought, European DVDs will not play is counterintuitive at best. SD region locking is so discredited that the DVD forum dropped it even for their HD formats!

Again, the draconian BDA restrictions regarding BD I can live with, frankly. Since launch I've been well aware that many titles are locked, yet some studios have been very good at locking only new releases (theatrical window sensitivity). SD locking, however, remains a rediculous hurdle for those that legally purchase discs, an inconvenience that will no doubt draw many to competing SD players.

The '83 looks to be an excellent player, but, frankly, I'm greatly disapointed that Oppo is dropping the feature that got me interested in them in the first place.

Your thoughts are welcome - please be respectful of those that have ideas differing from your own, and let's try and not either berate Oppo incessantly, or, just as destructively, blindly defend their decisions for the sake of fanboyism.

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post #2 of 193 Old 12-15-2008, 01:23 PM
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Oppo BD-35?

What's that?
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post #3 of 193 Old 12-15-2008, 01:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob Tomlin View Post

Oppo BD-35?

What's that?

I think that's Oppo's new HD DVD player .

I don't mean to debunk you sharkshark, but this thread is totally unnecessary. You want people to discuss something that doesn't exist and probably never will exist... (region free playback on the OPPO BDP-83).
If you feel you MUST have it though, I would totally delete this whole thread and start a new one with the correct title .

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post #4 of 193 Old 12-15-2008, 01:36 PM
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LOL, classic rant error.

"The dream never dies, just the dreamer."

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post #5 of 193 Old 12-15-2008, 01:38 PM
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So how many other Blu-ray players are on the market that provide region free playback?
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post #6 of 193 Old 12-15-2008, 01:41 PM - Thread Starter
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hey, guys... I jumped the gun, sorry... But, please, read the edited post above...

There are no other BD players that provide SD playback, save the Panasonics that are hardware modded (AFAIK). On the HD-DVD front, I belive the XA-2 can be modded as well.

However, there ARE BD/SD, two player solutions that hypothetically match core performance of the new Oppo, with the addition of region free SD playback, for a price that's competitive.

I'm using "ranting" in a sardonic way, but remain hopeful that some intelligent discourse regarding the importance (or lack thereof) of SD Region free playback in the Oppo device can be conducted. Plus, it alliterated.

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post #7 of 193 Old 12-15-2008, 01:43 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Smarty-pants View Post

I think that's Oppo's new HD DVD player .

I don't mean to debunk you sharkshark, but this thread is totally unnecessary. You want people to discuss something that doesn't exist and probably never will exist... (region free playback on the OPPO BDP-83).
If you feel you MUST have it though, I would totally delete this whole thread and start a new one with the correct title .

Title edited - I appreciate your participation, but I find it amusing that of those chastising the idea immediately, two are beta testers...

Just sayin'.

Slip of the brain regarding model number, I don't have one at home that I stare at every day... pfft...

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post #8 of 193 Old 12-15-2008, 01:50 PM
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I can't believe that we are actually talking about HD-DVD here.

Good grief.

Sharkshark, you know I usually enjoy your posts and thoughtful comments. I'm just not seeing this thread that way.......beta tester or not.
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post #9 of 193 Old 12-15-2008, 01:56 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob Tomlin View Post

I can't believe that we are actually talking about HD-DVD here.

Good grief.

Sharkshark, you know I usually enjoy your posts and thoughtful comments. I'm just not seeing this thread that way.......beta tester or not.

Rob, I love you like a brother... well, not exactly, but you know what I mean...

HD-DVD is dead. Kaput. Please do not take my example above out of context - I'm merely showing that the very forum that mandated SD region coding =DROPPED IT= for their HD product. In other words, even the DVD Forum found that locking media by Region was counterproductive.

THAT is why I bring it up. Of course, you know that, so please, please do not try and make this a us vs. them, format war thread of idiocy. Lord knows we've both posted too many times in those.

I'm personally pissed that the BDA would be able to tell Oppo what to do or not do regarding SD playback. I'm pissed that Oppo doesn't do what they've done for every other model, and provide a way of unlocking SD for playback of multiregion, legally purchased discs. I'm (personally) not pissed that they haven't unlocked BD regions, as, while inconvenient, was never a starter for anyone who has been following the politics of this format fun as long as you and I. Others feel the same way, you may not. I'm illustrating, effectively or not, that the body that's SUPPOSED to enforce SD region coding has lost the stomach for it themselves. Period.

Please respect the tone of the thread, and don't try and derail it (again) before it even begins...

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post #10 of 193 Old 12-15-2008, 01:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sharkshark View Post

Rob, I love you like a brother... well, not exactly, but you know what I mean...

HD-DVD is dead. Kaput. Please do not take my example above out of context - I'm merely showing that the very forum that mandated SD region coding =DROPPED IT= for their HD product. In other words, even the DVD Forum found that locking media by Region was counterproductive.

THAT is why I bring it up. Of course, you know that, so please, please do not try and make this a us vs. them, format war thread of idiocy. Lord knows we've both posted too many times in those.

Isn't region coding more of a studio decision than a format one? The studios (especially Fox and Disney) generally wanted strong protections on HDM since they felt it was too light on SD DVD, right?

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post #11 of 193 Old 12-15-2008, 02:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sharkshark View Post

Title edited - I appreciate your participation, but I find it amusing that of those chastising the idea immediately, two are beta testers...

Just sayin'.

Slip of the brain regarding model number, I don't have one at home that I stare at every day... pfft...

Ok, I will say this, and I don't know how long I will be subscribed to this thread since at this point, the entire topic is completely pointless... the BDP-83 will NOT play discs that are coded for anything other than region-1 or region-0 for sd-dvd, and region-A for Blu-ray.

When I found out that this was going to be a restiction of the player, I was upset about it. (about as much as you can be about a dvd player anyway... not like we're curing Cancer here...)
I, like many others (including beta testers) have multiple discs from other regions that we would like to play on our BDP-83. We complained that it is a HUGE mistake to eploy this restiction... that OPPO would lose customers, that people would be upset...

HERE IS HOW IT IS THOUGH...
The BDA will not allow it, PERIOD. If OPPO implemented it, their license could be revoked. Kind_of like if your a professional truck driver... your not going to go out street racing in your hot-rod and get caught drag racing and lose your license. Gone is your license, gone is your job/career, and you may never recover from it financially. Likewise, why should OPPO risk losing everything just because they want to play it fast_and_loose.

I am just as disappointed as everyone else, believe me. ...but, there's nothing we can do about it. My NON-region-1 discs have dwindled down abit from where they were a year or two ago. Down to maybe 20-25 of them. Now, I have to go and buy dual-layer media and burn all of them if I want to watch them on my BDP-83. Do you think that makes me feel good? NO, it's a pain in the ass. ...but again that's just the way it is, and basically, I'm over it. As soon as everyone else realizes that this is just the way it is, maybe they'll get over it too.

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post #12 of 193 Old 12-15-2008, 02:09 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidHir View Post

Isn't region coding more of a studio decision than a format one? The studios (especially Fox and Disney) generally wanted strong protections on HDM since they felt it was too light on SD DVD, right?

yes, absolutely... but (and this is something I'd hope we could discuss - I'm NO expert on this save years of AVS trolling) it's my understanding that Region locking for SD is strictly under the purview of the DVD forum. Again, there's lots (and LOTS) of history regarding this matter, but, what we've been told in the other thread, Oppo was mandated by the organization that controls BluRay that they have to lock SD DVD in order to get a licences. Full stop.

This, I think you'd agree, is worth discussing... Hopefully some with a far greater insight in to the working of the DVD forum/BDA could chime in. Better yet, those more familiar with these actions, and the position Oppo has been placed in, would equally be welcome.

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post #13 of 193 Old 12-15-2008, 02:15 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Smarty-pants View Post

Ok, I will say this, and I don't know how long I will be subscribed to this thread since at this point, the entire topic is completely pointless...

...am I the only one that has almost 2000 posts and doesn't know how to subscribe? heck, I just go into each thread I visit regularly and see what's new.

Still, your point is made, good to hear that it was a concern. You have had far more time to digest this news than many of us, and maybe even had time to discuss among yourselves about this issue. This is new for us, days old. And we've been told, in equally no uncertain terms, that it's a done deal, shuttup, and move on.

For some, in turn, their wait for an Oppo player is now a done deal. Why not buy a Panny or PS3 to match their existing Oppo player, rather than this new beast, if they can't get Region free SD?

This is the place, and not the other (congested) thread to discuss these things.

At least, that's the plan...

I'll shuttup now myself, just thought it a better idea as clearly the patience of the beta testers was well exhausted regarding this topic in the main FAQ thread.

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post #14 of 193 Old 12-15-2008, 02:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sharkshark View Post

...Oppo was mandated by the organization that controls BluRay that they have to lock SD DVD in order to get a licences.

My best educated guess would be, probably not. Just like the laws we hve here in the USA... as the saying goes, ignorance is no exception to the law.
Just like the government/police don't come knocking on your door to give you a list of all the laws and then make sure you understand them all, I doubt the BDA a does either.
OPPO knows what those gudelines are, and they are following them to a "T". They are not going to take the chance on losing everything, just as I stated earlier.

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post #15 of 193 Old 12-15-2008, 02:29 PM
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Originally Posted by sharkshark View Post

...am I the only one that has almost 2000 posts and doesn't know how to subscribe? heck, I just go into each thread I visit regularly and see what's new.

At the top of the page, just click on THREAD TOOLS. You can subscribe or unsubscribe to any thread at any given time. When you are subscribed to any thread, the next time someone posts in that thread, you will receive a notice of it in your e-mail. You will not receive any more notices untill at which time you visit the forums again.

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post #16 of 193 Old 12-15-2008, 02:29 PM
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Originally Posted by sharkshark View Post

However, there ARE BD/SD, two player solutions that hypothetically match core performance of the new Oppo, with the addition of region free SD playback, for a price that's competitive.

Oh, really?
Name one BD player with hi-def file support (MPEG2 and DIVX), Source Direct function, PS3 caliber loading speeds, 24Hz for DVD, 7.1 analog outs and constant height video output.

........waiting.........
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post #17 of 193 Old 12-15-2008, 02:31 PM
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Geez...how many players have come onto the market with the fact that they are locked and never will be unlocked....only a few weeks later for a "hack" to appear somewhere that unlocks it?

All the current Sony blu-ray players, including the S5000 have a "remote hack" to enable multi-region DVD playback.

Of course SOny isn't going to make it easy for anyone to region hack it from a BD standpoint...but even that has now happened for a few players using a chip.
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post #18 of 193 Old 12-15-2008, 02:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sharkshark View Post

For some, in turn, their wait for an Oppo player is now a done deal. Why not buy a Panny or PS3 to match their existing Oppo player, rather than this new beast, if they can't get Region free SD?

Because you can't get that with those players either . This is part of the point at hand. No other players currently in production can be made region free (especially without a mod to the hardware).
IF, you can find a US model Blu-ray player in production that can be made region free without a hardware mod, then we (and especially OPPO) would love to know about it.

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post #19 of 193 Old 12-15-2008, 02:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob Tomlin View Post

I'm just not seeing this thread that way.......beta tester or not.

It's perfectly reasonable for the OPPO apologists to defend OPPO's position on region-free BD. It does seem that OPPO's hands are tied. What I don't get, though, is the "you should be glad you are getting anything from OPPO at all" attitude from many of the same posters on the other BDP-83 thread, when they read our disappointment at the loss of a major feature. The reason OPPO is what it is today, is that they as a company didn't have that attitude, and developed customer loyalty based on giving people the absolutely best DVD player there is, along with support to match. I love my 983, and I think its functionality is incredible. By definition, a new player that takes away some of that functionality (and the main reason many of us bought OPPO players), is NOT the best player there is, and it seems that some don't want to hear that. Claiming "it's not OPPO's fault," while true, does nothing to actually solve the problem that many prospective customers will have with the new player.

Again, I would argue that a new BD player that doesn't meet my requirements is essentially no different from OPPO not having a BD player (either way I have to buy one somewhere else), so I don't see why I "should be glad I'm getting any kind of OPPO BD player at all," with the possible exception of a 3rd party company doing in the future what OPPO apparently can't (hardware/software modding an OPPO player). I still have hopes that the modding companies will want to tackle the OPPO.

Believe it or not, most of us writing these comments are not interested in trashing OPPO. What we do want to do, is to get visibility for this issue. If OPPO can't take advantage of region-free BD dollars, there will be companies out there that can. Of course, the product won't be quite as good, but the key feature will be there, and that is what will count. Since OPPO is not as huge as a Panasonic or a Sony, I would bet that there are enough sales that will be lost because of this that OPPO will feel the loss. Hopefully that will spur them to be able to do something about it.

Those of us complaining about the loss of region-free capability are being advised on the other thread to complain to the BDA instead of to OPPO. I don't think that the BDA will be disposed to listen to any complaints. However, when more and more sales dollars go to region-free players and mods, they may listen to that, just as more and more DVD players (including major brand names) are now capable of being made region-free without the trade association intervening. Once manufacturers start to stand up to the BDA, then the BDA might begin to listen, but not likely before.

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post #20 of 193 Old 12-15-2008, 02:36 PM
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[QUOTEJonStatt]All the current Sony blu-ray players, including the S5000 have a "remote hack" to enable multi-region DVD playback.
[/quote]
Is that a USA production model, or a Europeon verion?

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post #21 of 193 Old 12-15-2008, 02:37 PM
 
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It should be abundantly clear to all by now that the only way to get region-free BD playback is to solder a custom logic board into your player (a hardware hack).

So, whiners and cheapskates, google the good folks that can do it for you, pull out your pocketbooks, and give them some business.
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post #22 of 193 Old 12-15-2008, 02:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Smarty-pants View Post

Is that a USA production model, or a Europeon verion?

I have only tried it on a European model but I would have thought there was a good chance it would work on a USA model too. For those with e harmony remote and a current Sony BD player, you will find the information you need in the BD forum on avforums.
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post #23 of 193 Old 12-15-2008, 02:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wojtek View Post

It should be abundantly clear to all by now that the only way to get region-free BD playback is to solder a custom logic board into your player (a hardware hack).

So, whiners and cheapskates, google the good folks that can do it for you, pull out your pocketbooks, and give them some business.

Region free BD is not at issue here. Like your post really.

All acknowledge that that is the way it is. As I said in the other forum the studios are releasing some all region BD movies and that mitigates the issue to some extent. The main question has been can the DVD side of the machine have the same feature as the current players and allow for region free DVD playback. Nothing more nothing less

Before you throw the hand grenade of bitterness, don't forget to remove the pin.
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post #24 of 193 Old 12-15-2008, 03:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JonStatt View Post

I have only tried it on a European model but I would have thought there was a good chance it would work on a USA model too. For those with e harmony remote and a current Sony BD player, you will find the information you need in the BD forum on avforums.

According to all reports on the forums, including VCDHelp.com, the hacks are only available for the European hardware, as the US hardware lacks the input commands necessary for the exploit to work.
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post #25 of 193 Old 12-15-2008, 03:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob Tomlin View Post

So how many other Blu-ray players are on the market that provide region free playback?

Good question, but it probably doesn't matter when considering what one might expect from an Oppo BD/DVD player at the higher price-point. DVD went through a similar process before the BDA reared it's ugly head (long before Oppo entered the picture), first with expensive mods performed by third parties and eventually the wink-nod region code hacks that could be easily accessed through secret menu codes. This, IMO, was the basis for Oppo's success, more so than all the A/V bells and whistles (performance upgrades).

That said, it's entirely possible that the added value of having SACD, DVD-A, HDCD, CD, etc., etc., great standard region specific DVD upscaling and inclusion of the latest compression free audio codecs for BD will satisfy Oppo's customer base and justify the $499/$599 price, but for those folks who collect foreign films/TV on standard DVD as well as Blu-ray and were hoping for a one box solution, the BD-83 has to be a disappointment.

The bottom line: Barring some unpredictable change in Oppo's final product (seeing the light & challenging the BDA's "dark side of the force" with a region-code breaking workaround for standard DVDs), some prospective Oppo customers might find it more sensible seeking a two box solution if they can make room on their gear rack (as sharkshark suggests).

ViPh
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post #26 of 193 Old 12-17-2008, 09:50 AM
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As always, please focus on the post and not the poster, when responding.

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post #27 of 193 Old 12-17-2008, 09:56 AM
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Unlocked?
(EDIT: Oops, sorry. I was focusing on the poster )

Thanks for unlocking the thread Ron. Hopefully things won't get out of hand this time.

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post #28 of 193 Old 12-17-2008, 10:00 AM
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I thought it would feature region free DVD playback? I could've sworn I read it in the first official press release.

So, there won't be an easy remote workaround fix for region free DVD playback (as all other Oppo units have featured?)

If it can't at least do region free DVD playback there's not a chance in Hell I'll be getting this new unit.... and I've been a loyal Oppo owner for years since first owning a 971h (I have a 983h now.) I was looking forward to buying it on day one, but if it can't "do" my PAL region 2 DVD's I'll just stick with my 983 and my PS3 to cover DVD and BluRay playback. I didn't expect region free BluRay playback (although it would've been great) but if it doesn't pump out any and every DVD it's a step down from the 983 as far as I'm concerned.

Hate to say it, but count me out on this one.
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post #29 of 193 Old 12-17-2008, 10:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rboster View Post

As always, please focus on the post and not the poster, when responding.

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I totally support OPPO's position but I would like to hear both side
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post #30 of 193 Old 12-17-2008, 10:20 AM
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Count me in on the disappointed side. I have a 980 for my region 2 PAL DVD's and it works great. I have yet to jump into BD and was waiting for OPPO. $499/$599 is a tough sell these days and to take away region free SD is the final nail in the coffin for me. I think I will jump on a Panny BD and have a good two unit solution

Good luck guys
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