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Old 01-28-2009, 07:31 AM
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Originally Posted by EWL5 View Post

Jeff, Harley brings up the ONLY advantage of player decoding (player mixing). I have a post over in blu-ray.com that details the pros/cons of player vs AVR/prepro decoding. I'll copy it to AVS tonight.

That'd be great!!

My only point here is that the issue of the sonic degradation from jitter on a multichannel Blu Ray soundtrack is incnosequential and should not be a lone factor (or any factor) in spending $2K on a player.

Now if listenig to a 2 ch Chesky recording with a sophisticated 2 ch system... then, the argument has validity.

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Old 01-28-2009, 07:46 AM
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Bland , you still using the 3800? Im sure that player is treating you just fine but i was wondering if you have any interest in the 4:4:4 48 bit depth? I dont think we will see 4:4:4 on disc anytime soon , right?

how do you feel about the deep color upconvert

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Old 01-28-2009, 08:02 AM
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Originally Posted by baddgsx View Post

Bland , you still using the 3800? Im sure that player is treating you just fine but i was wondering if you have any interest in the 4:4:4 48 bit depth? I dont think we will see 4:4:4 on disc anytime soon , right?

how do you feel about the deep color upconvert


SInce there is no software encoded with deep color (and likely may never be, I'm not too interested in it.. 4:4:2 seems to work very well. Though theoretically ideal, 4:4:4 is not that of interest to me only..

I will soon be upgrading my Qualia, and my new PJ (either SIM2 Lumis or Titan Reference), though excellent PJs will likely have me sending 4:2:2.

The 3800 is doing well.

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Old 01-28-2009, 08:22 AM
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Originally Posted by thebland View Post

SInce there is no software encoded with deep color (and likely may never be, I'm not too interested in it.. 4:4:2 seems to work very well. Though theoretically ideal, 4:4:4 is not that of interest to me only..

I will soon be upgrading my Qualia, and my new PJ (either SIM2 Lumis or Titan Reference), though excellent PJs will likely have me sending 4:4:2.

The 3800 is doing well.

how are u getting 4:4:2? video processor?

Going from a ps3 4:2:0 of blu ray should be a noticable difference ,

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Old 01-28-2009, 08:30 AM
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Originally Posted by baddgsx View Post

how are u getting 4:4:2? video processor?

Going from a ps3 4:2:0 of blu ray should be a noticable difference ,

Ooops.. 4:2:2

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Old 01-28-2009, 08:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thebland View Post

SInce there is no software encoded with deep color (and likely may never be, I'm not too interested in it.. 4:4:2 seems to work very well. Though theoretically ideal, 4:4:4 is not that of interest to me only..

I will soon be upgrading my Qualia, and my new PJ (either SIM2 Lumis or Titan Reference), though excellent PJs will likely have me sending 4:2:2.

The 3800 is doing well.

Titan Reference? You're a mad man..

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Old 01-28-2009, 09:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thebland View Post

SInce there is no software encoded with deep color (and likely may never be, I'm not too interested in it.. 4:4:2 seems to work very well. Though theoretically ideal, 4:4:4 is not that of interest to me only..

I will soon be upgrading my Qualia, and my new PJ (either SIM2 Lumis or Titan Reference), though excellent PJs will likely have me sending 4:2:2.

The 3800 is doing well.

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Old 01-28-2009, 09:26 AM
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Originally Posted by thebland View Post

when you talk about whether a controller can decode the new audio formats, remember that there are two distinct functionsunzipping of the TrueHD bitstream to PCM, and the conversion of that PCM to analog. The former is best done in the player; the latter in the controller.[/size][/i]

But if you decode to PCM in the player and then send the PCM to the receiver, you're back to jitterland. Either send the bitstream to the receiver and have it do everything, or do everything on the player.
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Old 01-28-2009, 09:28 AM
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Originally Posted by thebland View Post

My only point here is that the issue of the sonic degradation from jitter on a multichannel Blu Ray soundtrack is incnosequential and should not be a lone factor (or any factor) in spending $2K on a player.

Now if listenig to a 2 ch Chesky recording with a sophisticated 2 ch system... then, the argument has validity.

I don't follow your argument. If jitter is a problem for two-channel, why would it not be a problem for 7.1?
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Old 01-28-2009, 09:59 AM
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Originally Posted by sk20 View Post

I don't follow your argument. If jitter is a problem for two-channel, why would it not be a problem for 7.1?


Simple.. Multi channel movie tracks a mixed with many multiple tracks. Hardly an ideal environment for a recordingh. Take a Chesky or Telarc single track studio recording of a cello, for example.. We know whata cello 'D' string should sound like. There is a reference for such. Jitter, in high degrees can haze this up. A good two channel system will address it for the pristine recordings.. Now take a car chase, a man yelling or a pan of an airplane or a wind blowing through a meadow.. There is no reference. The recording is so processed that jitter would do little to make one notice. Moreover, the amount of jitter through HDMI is not significant.. A small issue at 115 db peaks..

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There are more than a handful of [op amps] that sound so good that most designers want to be using them as opposed to discreet transistors. Dave Reich, Theta 2009
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Old 01-28-2009, 10:56 AM
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Glad to hear that Pio is up to the task. Mine just arrived and I am looking forward to take it out for a spin once back from travels.

As far as color spaces/depth/chroma subsampling, there seems to be some inconsistency in how folks use all these terms. Couple of useful links:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deep_Color
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chroma_subsampling
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Color_s...l_color_spaces (Density)

Labels as 4:2:2 or 4:4:4 usually refer to chroma subsampling, or absence thereof. Bit depth of the colorspace is a different thing. RBG "true color" is 3x8=24 bit (without alpha/transparency channel) and YCbCr colorspace is derived from RGB as well. HDMI specs up to (but excluding) 1.3 and digital equipment incorporating these standards takes one of them, or either as input, and both of them would be 24-bit 4:4:4 (i.e. no chroma subsampling). HDMI 1.3 adds extended bit dept up to 3x16=48 bit.

DVD and BR comes encoded in 4:2:0 format and its total bit depth is 12 bits (as opposed to RBG that is 24 bits 4:4:4). Some codecs (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H.264/MPEG-4_AVC) might support formats with less chroma subsampling or with higher bit depth, but at this point highly unlikely that Hollywood will be willing to release such material.

Most of today’s consumer level digital displays will display only 24 bit “true color”. Some of the industry specialized displays will actually display more than 24-bits, but I am not aware of any dedicated video/HT display that will do that (input welcome, especially for FPJs, would love to get me one of these).

A different story is what are the specs of digital display’s video processing engine. This is where some displays (like Pio Kuro) get to process signal at 36-bit, and also in case they are HDMI 1.3 profile compliant and are receiving signal from HDMI 1.3 compliant source, can accept up to 48-bit depth signal as input.

So each BR/DVD path starts with 4:2:0 12 bit signal and should end with 4:4:4 24 bit signal. However, converting encoded video signal to 36 bit or 48 bit colorspace (whatever subsampling theoretically, but hopefully 4:4:4 in Pio) and doing all the video processing in such rich colorspace does yield really noticeable inprovements regardless of conversion back to 24-bit colorspace for viewing. My experiences so far are with ES5000 on BR, and with HTPC on DVD by using high quality 48 bit YV12 (4:2:0) to RGB24 conversion. Can hardly wait to see how is Pio doing it.

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Old 01-28-2009, 10:59 AM
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FDUOTE=joerod;15671954]Tigerhonaker, Yes, I remember. Blu ray discs still show a vast improvement with 720p displays. I actually used a couple smaller LCD displays (as we do in our house) so I know on your 123" screen you will see a BIG difference. And yes, you SD dvds will look excellent to. Of course if your PJ was 1080p then they would look even better. Hope this helps. [/quote]

joerod,

Thanks for the 2nd time answering my question.

The reason I ask again as this time you actually had the 09FD. The other time you and many others were waiting for it to be released.

I wonder if you could or some others here tell me this. Even on Blu Ray DVDS, are the majority of them actually 5.1 surround ??? Not 7.1 Surround ???
I ask because my Integra RDC-7 does Not do 7.1 Surround.

Thanks, again for your reply here.

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Old 01-28-2009, 11:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thebland View Post

Simple.. Multi channel movie tracks a mixed with many multiple tracks. Hardly an ideal environment for a recordingh. Take a Chesky or Telarc single track studio recording of a cello, for example.. We know whata cello 'D' string should sound like. There is a reference for such. Jitter, in high degrees can haze this up. A good two channel system will address it for the pristine recordings.. Now take a car chase, a man yelling or a pan of an airplane or a wind blowing through a meadow.. There is no reference. The recording is so processed that jitter would do little to make one notice. Moreover, the amount of jitter through HDMI is not significant.. A small issue at 115 db peaks..

Excellent explanation....well worth re-posting! Obviously those who will play content besides movies may have legitimate concern over jitter for that content. But for MCh movie tracks, it just doesn't make sense. Your example of trying to detect jitter in a car chase illustrates it perfectly.
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Old 01-28-2009, 11:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thebland View Post

Simple.. Multi channel movie tracks a mixed with many multiple tracks. Hardly an ideal environment for a recordingh. Take a Chesky or Telarc single track studio recording of a cello, for example.. We know whata cello 'D' string should sound like. There is a reference for such. Jitter, in high degrees can haze this up. A good two channel system will address it for the pristine recordings.. Now take a car chase, a man yelling or a pan of an airplane or a wind blowing through a meadow.. There is no reference. The recording is so processed that jitter would do little to make one notice. Moreover, the amount of jitter through HDMI is not significant.. A small issue at 115 db peaks..

I like that explanation as well for movies... would the same argument hold for better DACs for multichannel??? The 05/51 replacements will certainly add features, but if the 51 loses the wolfson DACs, would there be any noticable difference in multichannel analog during movies? Same for 09fd vs 05fd for movie audio. At some point, the quality of the equipment does make a difference for movies as well as 2-ch... I know it would be somewhat personal, but it seems this argument might lead to the logical conclusion that (gasp) the vast majority of people should not spend the $ on higher end equipment (e.g. if you are not playing movies at reference volume because you are scared you'll wake the neighbors, you will not push the cheaper bits beyond their comfort zone).

"A wide screen just makes a bad film twice as bad. "
-Samuel Goldwyn

I wonder what he'd think about 3D IMAX?
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Old 01-28-2009, 01:26 PM
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The 09FD makes good sense to me, ordered one yesterday: D

I can't wait for the new oppo

My new home theater will have

Denon AVR5308ci
Pioneer Elite BDP-09FD
Pioneer Elite PRO 141FD

Coming from an 8 year old Elite PRO 610 rear projection TV w/o hdmi and Pioneers first progressive scan DVD player, this will be quite the upgrade.

Even though my receiver has the top performing Realta HQV video processor, I'll likely have the 09 encode video/audio and send LPCM to my receiver for the reasons Bland mentions.

I can also switch back and fourth and find out with one I like better.
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Old 01-28-2009, 01:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thebland View Post

Fortuntately, jitter is a small issue for multi channel movies soundtracks.. It is simply a buzz word more appropriate to more sophisticated audiophile recordings (primarily 2 channel). You simply won't hear any jitter induced aberations on multi channel Blu Ray soundtracks..

I advise buying a player that has the ability to decode TrueHD bitstreams to PCM. Note that any Blu-ray player that has BDLive capability will decode TrueHD bitstream to PCM. That's because BD live involves mixing audio streams on the fly during playback, which requires decoding in the player

Quote:
Originally Posted by thebland View Post

My only point here is that the issue of the sonic degradation from jitter on a multichannel Blu Ray soundtrack is incnosequential and should not be a lone factor (or any factor) in spending $2K on a player.

Quote:
Originally Posted by thebland View Post

Simple.. Multi channel movie tracks a mixed with many multiple tracks. Hardly an ideal environment for a recordingh. Take a Chesky or Telarc single track studio recording of a cello, for example.. We know whata cello 'D' string should sound like. There is a reference for such. Jitter, in high degrees can haze this up. A good two channel system will address it for the pristine recordings.. Now take a car chase, a man yelling or a pan of an airplane or a wind blowing through a meadow.. There is no reference. The recording is so processed that jitter would do little to make one notice. Moreover, the amount of jitter through HDMI is not significant.. A small issue at 115 db peaks..

I never thought I would disagree with you on a matter of audiopilia, but as of two days ago, there is a first time for everything.

I've been a fan of i-link and all it brings for a few years now. Knowing how awful HDMI can be, I was keen to see how bitstreaming might be able to help HDI jitter (if at all). My new best friend Mad Mr H lent me his new Onkyo PR-SC886 this week, and I've been stretching its legs. I heard the effect of DTS MA bitstream from BD over HDMI for the first time on Monday, and to my great pleasure, its that same feeling of removing a frosted glass screen that you get with i-link.

It doesn't matter that there's no beautifully recorded music, films sound better too. You get atmosphere and perspective. Its a big difference, and I don't want to do without it. Try it.

BR, Nick
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Old 01-28-2009, 01:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by progprog View Post

Excellent explanation....well worth re-posting! Obviously those who will play content besides movies may have legitimate concern over jitter for that content. But for MCh movie tracks, it just doesn't make sense. Your example of trying to detect jitter in a car chase illustrates it perfectly.

If that is the case..then why are people hearing differences between players using LPCM and bitstream HDMI outputs? Either they are imagining the differences....or something else is going on here.

Many many people seem to be amazed how much better bitstream sounds from player X vs the LPCM output of the PS3. Some claim they can absolutely and definitely hear the difference between player X outputting bitstream and player Y outputting that same bitstream.

If jitter is not an issue, then every player should sound the same via HDMI bitstream. Either the bits are making it off the disc and down the cable or they are not. Akin to a zip file, if you are losing bits, the whole thing is useless...so if the receiver is outputting sound, then you are getting all of the bits.

Why does LPCM sound different to bitstream? Afterall, the unzipping of the bitstream encoding results in the same LPCM output bits no matter where it is decoded.



I have a theory...which I can't prove, but it is worrying me. As I discovered with the S5000ES, if you change the dynamic range control setting on the player, it affects TrueHD and DD soundtracks even if you bitstream. Does this mean players get a chance to "influence" the sound, even the bitstream formats? They could be upping levels (remember louder always sounds better), boosting bass. I just hope we are not seeing a re-emergence of the old TV selling tricks, but over accentuating contrast or colour to stand out against a comparison.
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Old 01-28-2009, 02:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by welwynnick View Post

I never thought I would disagree with you on a matter of audiopilia, but as of two days ago, there is a first time for everything.

I've been a fan of i-link and all it brings for a few years now. Knowing how awful HDMI can be, I was keen to see how bitstreaming might be able to help HDI jitter (if at all). My new best friend Mad Mr H lent me his new Onkyo PR-SC886 this week, and I've been stretching its legs. I heard the effect of DTS MA bitstream from BD over HDMI for the first time on Monday, and to my great pleasure, its that same feeling of removing a frosted glass screen that you get with i-link.

It doesn't matter that there's no beautifully recorded music, films sound better too. You get atmosphere and perspective. Its a big difference, and I don't want to do without it. Try it.

BR, Nick

Well...one time is OK..

I have been a 20 year subscriber to sterophile and have bought low jitter devices, etc over the years (Audio Alchemy made a fortune on it).. I think jitter matters... but in the context of comparing its affects versus poor D/A converters, DTS MA vs lossy, etc, jitters effects on a BD multichannel soundtrack are, to me, negligible..

Best!

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Old 01-28-2009, 02:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JonStatt View Post


Why does LPCM sound different to bitstream? Afterall, the unzipping of the bitstream encoding results in the same LPCM output bits no matter where it is decoded.
.

Different topic, different science, different discussion all together..

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Old 01-28-2009, 02:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JonStatt View Post

I have a theory...which I can't prove, but it is worrying me. As I discovered with the S5000ES, if you change the dynamic range control setting on the player, it affects TrueHD and DD soundtracks even if you bitstream. Does this mean players get a chance to "influence" the sound, even the bitstream formats? They could be upping levels (remember louder always sounds better), boosting bass. I just hope we are not seeing a re-emergence of the old TV selling tricks, but over accentuating contrast or colour to stand out against a comparison.

I think what you are referring to is DRC or a derivative of it. However, I don't think that affects the bitstream unless it's applied at the processor. The Cary 11a for example has a feature called "late" which limits the dynamics for DD and TrueHD soundtracks when engadged. The Pioneer 05 has this feature also but it only works when the player is doing the decoding. The differences are very noticeable. I can't see how the Sony is limiting the dynamic range of the bitstream though.. Doesn't make sense..

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Old 01-28-2009, 02:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dougri View Post

At some point, the quality of the equipment does make a difference for movies as well as 2-ch...

I think so
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Old 01-28-2009, 02:42 PM
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I think so



Well that is obvious...Certainly, that's a point we'd all agree on.. What if your speakers are limited in output (and, hence, dynamics). You get a muted soundstage.. Good equipment will always be a priority.. but, jitter in the context of noticeably degrading the Blu Ray movie soundtrack is a non issue and, frankly, an issue in search of a problem (my opinion)..

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Old 01-28-2009, 04:28 PM
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Folks, let's take this somewhat OT discussion concerning decoding in player vs decoding in AVR/prepro to this thread. I copied my post over and I'd like any thoughts or comments that can improve the post. Thanks!

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...8#post15678878

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Old 01-28-2009, 05:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thebland View Post

Simple.. Multi channel movie tracks a mixed with many multiple tracks. Hardly an ideal environment for a recordingh. Take a Chesky or Telarc single track studio recording of a cello, for example.. We know whata cello 'D' string should sound like. There is a reference for such. Jitter, in high degrees can haze this up. A good two channel system will address it for the pristine recordings.. Now take a car chase, a man yelling or a pan of an airplane or a wind blowing through a meadow.. There is no reference. The recording is so processed that jitter would do little to make one notice. Moreover, the amount of jitter through HDMI is not significant.. A small issue at 115 db peaks..

Totally agree!

It's a solution in search of a problem. Last week I compared several 2 channel "audiophile" reference recordings using the 59AVI player with ILink & PQLS and the BDP-05 player with HDMI (no PQLS). The difference was so subtle, with very slight differences in perceived depth, instrument localization & clarity, that it took multiple A/B comparisons to try to confirm what I thought I heard.

With a dynamic movie soundtrack, the differences I heard would be completely meaningless. I would defy anyone anywhere to tell the difference between PQLS & no PQLS with multichannel movie tracks.

Where it might make a difference is on multichannel music which is ironic (!), since none of Pioneer's new players have SACD/DVD-A support. And the amount of music recordings on BD music is insignificant to the installed base of SACD/DVD-A users which is miniscule compared to how most listen to music. Now if Pioneer would step up to the plate & make a universal player....different story....HDMI PQLS now has a use.

The world of marketing at work, guys.

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Old 01-28-2009, 06:14 PM
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great write up joe, as a 5000es owner am not in the least offended. I'm ok with it being yesterdays hero always of the understanding there is always better out there. especially given the march of progress. Its a good thing to keep the manufactuers on their toes. I imagine as you head to the top its a case of diminishing returns as well. making the choice harder or easier. In oz the new pio is to sell at $4.5k vs the $2k for the sony makign the choice a little bit easier !

I too would appreciate a comparison with the big daddy denon, it will be a proper new denon completely ground up so should be very interesting to see how goes vs the other leaders of the pack.

I much more value posts and end user reviews of the likes of yourself. especially given the effort you go through keep it up !

I'm super keen on the Pioneer, however the Pioneer Oz distribs have screwed things again with pricing the LX91 unsurprisingly- they take the #1 spot as my most hated distrib here in price and support (especially since I like both their car and HT products so much). After seeing the price and thinking about the not insignificant number of region A titles in my collection that won't play(thanks esp to FOX), I'm going to go the import on a BPD-09FD. The PS3 has serviced it's time well, but it's time to feed my VW80 and SXRD with next level in PQ .

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Old 01-28-2009, 06:22 PM
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I agree that multichannel PQLS is more of a "feels nice" thing (like DTS-MA decoding) than something that makes a substantial impact in sound quality that anyone would notice.
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Old 01-28-2009, 06:45 PM
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Part 1 conclusions... I am enjoying the 09FD. It is very flexible especially with having two HDMIs to play with. I keep finding myself grabbing Blu ray movies to see what a difference it makes. Forgetting Sarah Marshall which to me is not one of the better looking titles (though it is funny) looked better than ever. If this player can consistently make average titles look good and good titles look great then it is a winner... TheBland may have been on to something when he saw this player at the show last year and said this may be the player to beat!

I only just caught your review Joe, but without sounding too cynical, it sounds just a bit like how you sounded when you first tested the 05 (or was it the 51).

I'll give you another month or two.
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Old 01-28-2009, 06:58 PM - Thread Starter
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Good point Ken. Which is why I decided to really spend the quality time needed to make an informed decision. As many know here I put off my "Intro" even longer. Then of course "Part 2" was put off... I am just saying I learned from the past.

In a month or two I will have the same view unless we are doing another comparison...

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Old 01-28-2009, 07:19 PM
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Ditto... Since most who would spend for a Sony / Pioneer 09 / Denon 3800 will likely bitstream/ LPCM the Hi Res lossless codecs and view at 1080P24 via HDMI... I think, other than warranty, reliability, and out of the box functionality, there is little else of significance to want in an 'uber-player'.

Since analog is gone, the need for better conversions and more expensive parts / design is really sort of over.

At 1080P24 output and DTS MA / TRUE HD bitstreamed (or decoded to LPCM), the player is essentially lifting the digital tracks off the disc and simply passing them on without any post processing whatsoever. The players are essentially conduits that take the digital source to the receiver for post processing and D/A conversion ... so, who needs all the excess when it comes to Blu Ray discs?

Hmm, I kind of remember myself saying essentially this a number of months ago.
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Old 01-28-2009, 07:30 PM
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I only just caught your review Joe, but without sounding too cynical, it sounds just a bit like how you sounded when you first tested the 05 (or was it the 51).

I'll give you another month or two.

It's called "New Kid on the Block Syndrome."

Pioneer broke my heart.
Denon broke my wallet.
Oppo broke my thinking.
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