The Pioneer Elite BDP-09FD Owner's Thread... - Page 22 - AVS Forum
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post #631 of 8624 Old 02-03-2009, 08:45 PM
 
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Jeff, you continual bashing of Pioneer is getting a little old and frankly it reflects poorly.

Pioneer has always been clear about no internal decoding of DTS MA till the firmware is available. All BD players have needed firmware to fix and upgrade features. Pioneer has done a excellent job of facing issues and providing support and firmware updates.

If anyone does not trust Pioneer's commitment to provide internal DTS MA decoding or does not want to wait, then just buy another product, but calling for a boycott is nothing short of just plain silly.

For many of us who want the best BD player and don't need internal decoding of DTS MA because we have HDMI 1.3 pre-pros or capable receiver this is the very best player available. And the same goes for those of us who would like internal DTS MA decoding but can wait as we know that this is a minor issue because very few titles are mastered in DTS MA without Dolby TrueHD we also appreciate owning the very best BD player and the BDP-09FD is it.

For you and the one or two others who just want to harp on the temporary issue of bit streaming DTS MA with no internal decoding go buy something else.

No personal offense intended, but I do want the readers of this thread to understand the issue accurately.

-Robert
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post #632 of 8624 Old 02-03-2009, 08:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thebland View Post

it is unforgivable to have blown off that important, promised feature to those who spent good money on the player and required LPCM to get lossless over HDMI.... especially now when the player is available for $275 and soon to be discontinued..

The fact that the 09 still cannot decode DTS MA either is also of concern

good points Jeff.

However, there's no excuse to have had to return two, essentially brand-new, Denon players after laser-failure and "buggy" behavior. Both, my DVD-3930CI and DVD-3800BDCI, had to be re-packed and shipped back to New Jersey for warranty repair after barely two-months of use, complete failure. My DVD-3930CI has been back twice (now it cost's me $350.00 each time). Many other owners can speak for this reality (as you know), for both models (just read both respective threads). Both models were priced well over $1000.00 over a year ago (DVD-3930CI $1500.00, DVD-3800BDCI $2000.00). Think I'd spend $4200.00 on the DVD-A1UDCI? hell no...........

Other than not having DTS-HD MA I have'nt experienced any "buggy" behavior with my BDP-05FD, I guess I've been one of the "lucky" ones (maybe not). Just like you have'nt had any major behavior issues with your DVD-3800BDCI. I use my DVD-3800BDCI sparingly these days as I'm paranoid of another failure, that's why I use a back-up player like the Pioneer (which seems to behave more stable).
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post #633 of 8624 Old 02-03-2009, 09:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DTV TiVo Dealer View Post

If anyone does not trust Pioneer's commitment to provide internal DTS MA decoding or does not want to wait, then just buy another product, but calling for a boycott is nothing short of just plain silly.

For many of us who want the best BD player and don't need internal decoding of DTS MA because we have HDMI 1.3 pre-pros or capable receiver this is the very best player available. And the same goes for those of us who would like internal DTS MA decoding but can wait as we know that this is a minor issue because very few titles are mastered in DTS MA without Dolby TrueHD we also appreciate owning the very best BD player and the BDP-09FD is it.

For you and the one or two others who just want to harp on the temporary issue of bit streaming DTS MA with no internal decoding go buy something else.

No personal offense intended, but I do want the readers of this thread to understand the issue accurately.

-Robert

+ 1

Well said, Robert. Seriously, if a player doesn't have the feature(s) you need, just look for a different one that does. I don't understand all the hand-wringing over this "issue."
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post #634 of 8624 Old 02-03-2009, 10:49 PM
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Originally Posted by baddgsx View Post

I had the Denon 3930ci myself and i thought it was an EXCELLENT player. I was using it with my JVC-HD70FH96 display , (a 70inch dila that was 1080p but could only take a 1080i in and the display converted to 1080p)

So i was doing DVD to 1080i and i saw no flaws at all. I really , really liked it.

the 3930 is a good player. what I'm saying is that I have materials that trip on it severely, but not on Pio (therefore, lack of HQV blahblah on the 09 means nothing). In my experience on the 3930 (and a HQV video processor), its performance on PAL is sub-par; (an issue not relevant in US market) also for really bad edited MTV DVDs, it tumbles. These are just some examples. For DVD I find the pioneer inhouse solution is an overall better thought-out design, that works very well on most material. Note I watch not only big name studio movie releases. there are also many other materials, educational, commercial, kids, MTV, home-made, etc. Pioneer (also DVDO's) solution seems to be more resilient on a broader spectrum of materials.
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post #635 of 8624 Old 02-04-2009, 02:20 AM
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Originally Posted by c722 View Post

the 3930 is a good player. what I'm saying is that I have materials that trip on it severely, but not on Pio (therefore, lack of HQV blahblah on the 09 means nothing). In my experience on the 3930 (and a HQV video processor), its performance on PAL is sub-par; (an issue not relevant in US market) also for really bad edited MTV DVDs, it tumbles. These are just some examples. For DVD I find the pioneer inhouse solution is an overall better thought-out design, that works very well on most material. Note I watch not only big name studio movie releases. there are also many other materials, educational, commercial, kids, MTV, home-made, etc. Pioneer (also DVDO's) solution seems to be more resilient on a broader spectrum of materials.

Are you using the 09 with a DVDO processor?


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post #636 of 8624 Old 02-04-2009, 03:31 AM - Thread Starter
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I also think coming to the new 09FD Owner's thread to bash Pioneer is bad form. If you clearly do not plan to own the product (09) then why participate in the thread? Especially if it is not constructive.

I agree with you Ruined. The latest firmware updates have seriously been a great shot in the arm for the 51/05 units.

For my latest Reviews and Stuff google -> Joe Rod Home Theater .Com
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post #637 of 8624 Old 02-04-2009, 04:13 AM
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I'm waiting my new Pio to come!
Need a few suggestions:
I'm gonna connect it to my Lexicon MC-4 preamp through analogs.
Lexicon allows 5.1 bypass analog input and also provide a volume setting for each channel. Is it best to use Pioneer's internal channel level settings, or leaving them to 0.0db and use the Lexicon levels setting?

Having a 5.1 analog configuration, the 09FD can mix the 7.1 tracks in 5.1? Or I miss 2 channels and half of surround sound?

Using audio analog outputs, do u suggest to connect my vpr directly to HDMI main or sub output?


thanks
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post #638 of 8624 Old 02-04-2009, 04:34 AM
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Originally Posted by joerod View Post

i also think coming to the new 09fd owner's thread to bash pioneer is bad form. If you clearly do not plan to own the product (09) then why participate in the thread? Especially if it is not constructive.

I agree with you ruined. The latest firmware updates have seriously been a great shot in the arm for the 51/05 units.

+1
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post #639 of 8624 Old 02-04-2009, 04:38 AM
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Originally Posted by joerod View Post

I also think coming to the new 09FD Owner's thread to bash Pioneer is bad form. If you clearly do not plan to own the product (09) then why participate in the thread? Especially if it is not constructive.

I agree with you Ruined. The latest firmware updates have seriously been a great shot in the arm for the 51/05 units.



+4

me, my girlfriend, my friend and his wife!

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post #640 of 8624 Old 02-04-2009, 04:44 AM
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Originally Posted by joerod View Post

I also think coming to the new 09FD Owner's thread to bash Pioneer is bad form. If you clearly do not plan to own the product (09) then why participate in the thread? Especially if it is not constructive.

I agree with you Ruined. The latest firmware updates have seriously been a great shot in the arm for the 51/05 units.

Good form has never been my strength...

That said, as an enthusiasts site, full disclosure is always good form. Constantly bringing up the lack of DTS MA and other issues are great points for prospective buyers to weigh (along with the positives). If it weren't for naysayers, this missing feature would be swept under the rug.

8 mos after release, it's almost too late for those who really want DTS MA decoding over analog / HDMI LPCM.

Let's remember, we are talking about a box here, not one's wife. So, who cares if a box / manufacturer is called to task for continuing to leave out a key feature. It's just stuff... Some heretake the truth as ome sort of personal affront.. It's just a box.


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post #641 of 8624 Old 02-04-2009, 04:50 AM
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Originally Posted by thebland View Post

Good form has never been my strength...

That said, as an enthusiasts site, full disclosure is always good form. Constantly bringing up the lack of DTS MA and other issues are great points for prospective buyers to weigh (along with the positives). If it weren't for naysayers, this missing feature would be swept under the rug.

8 mos after release, it's almost too late for those who really want DTS MA decoding over analog / HDMI LPCM.

Let's remember, we are talking about a box here, not one's wife. So, who cares if a box / manufacturer is called to task for continuing to leave out a key feature. It's just stuff... Some heretake the truth as ome sort of personal affront.. It's just a box.



Those people looking for DTS MA can look at the bright side and buy laser-failure Denons!

- Independent Dreams - IDStudios
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post #642 of 8624 Old 02-04-2009, 04:50 AM
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I have been busy at work for a few days, but it appears that the Pioneer and fellow AVSer bashing is getting a bit untenable.

No reason to head in that direction at all. Anybody who wants to simply criticize Pioneer should do so in a separate thread.

We should be speaking about the pros and cons of the Elite BDP-09FD in this Owners Thread. Is the lack of internal dts-hd-ma decoding a con - most definitely! But if I choose to purchase the 09 and await Pioneer to upgrade the firmware to allow this decoding, then, that is my decision, made with full disclosure. And this decision and the lack of internal DTS-hd-ma decoding has no effect, nor does it taint my views of the present PQ & SQ abilities of the Elite 09-FD. For me, the 09 is everything that Pioneer said it would be and it is worth every dollar of the purchase price.

Stan
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post #643 of 8624 Old 02-04-2009, 04:59 AM
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Originally Posted by sillysally View Post

thebland, Wife wants me to say mega-dittos to your tag line.

If The Bland is "the Nostradamus of home theater" then maybe he can predict when the laser assembly will fail in his 3800
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post #644 of 8624 Old 02-04-2009, 05:22 AM
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Originally Posted by baddgsx View Post

Those people looking for DTS MA can look at the bright side and buy laser-failure Denons!

Exactly.

Many bitched about the lasers going bad. First it was a few... Then it got to be quite a few... We didn't brow beat those folks for bashing Denon for bringing up negatives about the player like is happening in the Pioneer threads...

Instead, we all agreed Denon had screwed up the laser assemblies and we started to ask each other which serial numbers had been affected. Turns out, they all came from the first batch of 1500 players....primarily the fist few hundred. So, those who buy now are OK, those who may buy a used unit will know to ask about the serial number before purchase.

That is a good thing that comes out of complaining / bitching rather than praising a manufacturer for doing us the service of selling us a faulty player and complaining about folks that are expressing truth and opinions about a player.


Someone explain to me why holding a manufacturer to task or criticizing them is a such an affront? We pay good money for this equipment. I criticize ALL manufacturers when they lie or bring poor equipment to market. Denon included.. Go back to the early 3800 thread when they screwed up 24P output and you had to mail it back to Denon... I red assed them for quite some time. In fact, when I ran into Denon Jeff at CEDIA, he didn't even want to look at me... But Denon fixed it. So, it was worth it. It was worth it to those perspective buyers who avoided it until Denon fixed it. So, being vocal is all positive.

The beneficiaries are us when issues are ferreted out and manufacturers held accountable.

.


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post #645 of 8624 Old 02-04-2009, 06:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thebland View Post

Good form has never been my strength...

That said, as an enthusiasts site, full disclosure is always good form. Constantly bringing up the lack of DTS MA and other issues are great points for prospective buyers to weigh (along with the positives). If it weren't for naysayers, this missing feature would be swept under the rug.

8 mos after release, it's almost too late for those who really want DTS MA decoding over analog / HDMI LPCM.

Let's remember, we are talking about a box here, not one's wife. So, who cares if a box / manufacturer is called to task for continuing to leave out a key feature. It's just stuff... Some heretake the truth as ome sort of personal affront.. It's just a box.

AVS is about challenging the post and not the poster. I am waiting for someone to challenge your posts.
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post #646 of 8624 Old 02-04-2009, 06:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thebland View Post

Good form has never been my strength...

That said, as an enthusiasts site, full disclosure is always good form. Constantly bringing up the lack of DTS MA and other issues are great points for prospective buyers to weigh (along with the positives). If it weren't for naysayers, this missing feature would be swept under the rug.

8 mos after release, it's almost too late for those who really want DTS MA decoding over analog / HDMI LPCM.

Let's remember, we are talking about a box here, not one's wife. So, who cares if a box / manufacturer is called to task for continuing to leave out a key feature. It's just stuff... Some heretake the truth as ome sort of personal affront.. It's just a box.


As I already mentioned >>a few posts back<<, the 51/05 has not been out 8 months...it hasn't even been out 6 months yet. In the spirit of full disclosure you'd think you could at least get your facts right.

~kyle
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post #647 of 8624 Old 02-04-2009, 06:44 AM
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After reading all the above Man I'm glad I bought the Sony 5000es.
I owned the 51fd for about a week and a half. Loaded the 121 f/w and had so many lock-ups that I
was nervous every time I loaded a new BD.
Every lock up was reported to Pio. At one stage they(Pio) blamed the unit so I replaced it. Same thing happened with the replacement.
Pio then took every detail from me as to circumstances surrounding lock-ups,
I admit I'm a Pioneer fanboy but enough is enough.
Sick of being a Beta tester.
I'm aware the PS3 was a dog when it was released as well.... but why should we consumer's be sold products which fall short of our expectations.
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post #648 of 8624 Old 02-04-2009, 07:44 AM
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Originally Posted by con219 View Post

After reading all the above Man I'm glad I bought the Sony 5000es.
I owned the 51fd for about a week and a half. Loaded the 121 f/w and had so many lock-ups that I
was nervous every time I loaded a new BD.
Every lock up was reported to Pio. At one stage they(Pio) blamed the unit so I replaced it. Same thing happened with the replacement.
Pio then took every detail from me as to circumstances surrounding lock-ups,
I admit I'm a Pioneer fanboy but enough is enough.
Sick of being a Beta tester.
I'm aware the PS3 was a dog when it was released as well.... but why should we consumer's be sold products which fall short of our expectations.

You should not buy if it's short of expectations. Pioneer is being upfront that it does not have DTS-MA. If thats what you want as I do, I am waiting. I want this player really bad as I mentioned for the Wolfson DAC's, however I am not throwing a penny at it till it does DTS-MA. I am also waiting or giving time for the willing beta tester to see if they find any major hiccups on the unit. So far none.

I don't mind hearing "theblands" comments either. I want to hear all prespectives, and he brings up a valid point for the previous pioneer blu-ray owners that were expecting a firmware upgrade. However Pioneer is being vague about when this upgrade will take place. When it does come out and it actually works as promised then I will get it. In the mean time this thing is still in beta stages as far as I am concerned and showing very good potential. I just rather WAIT for the finished product.


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post #649 of 8624 Old 02-04-2009, 07:51 AM
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[quote=joerod;15731899]I also think coming to the new 09FD Owner's thread to bash Pioneer is bad form. If you clearly do not plan to own the product (09) then why participate in the thread? Especially if it is not constructive.

I agree, I have been reading all player threads so I can make an informed decision on my next purchase!
And I must say that you Pioneer owners are cool as cucumbers.
I suggest everyone add some urishi to there rack, It seems to create a calming effect
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post #650 of 8624 Old 02-04-2009, 08:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DTV TiVo Dealer View Post

I would be willing to give 2 - 1 odds that Pioneer will have a firmware upgrade for the 51/05/09FD to internally decode DTS MA by the end of April '09.

Any takers?

-Robert

just got off the phone with pioneer. dts hd ma upgrades for all three will be available mar or apr. for those looking to pick up the 09 in denver, i can only find it special order
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post #651 of 8624 Old 02-04-2009, 08:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by con219 View Post

After reading all the above Man I'm glad I bought the Sony 5000es.
I owned the 51fd for about a week and a half. Loaded the 121 f/w and had so many lock-ups that I
was nervous every time I loaded a new BD.
Every lock up was reported to Pio. At one stage they(Pio) blamed the unit so I replaced it. Same thing happened with the replacement.
Pio then took every detail from me as to circumstances surrounding lock-ups,
I admit I'm a Pioneer fanboy but enough is enough.
Sick of being a Beta tester.
I'm aware the PS3 was a dog when it was released as well.... but why should we consumer's be sold products which fall short of our expectations.

You have a very fine unit in the Sony and I'm sorry to hear of your proplems with the 51. What any of this has to do with a Pioneer 09 that should be posted in the owners thread I'm not quite sure.
Please fellow forum members let's keep this thread on topic and save the soapbox for another thread. I really would like some info on the 09.

Clark
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post #652 of 8624 Old 02-04-2009, 08:54 AM
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I really would like some info on the 09.

From people that have actually seen and used the unit, please? We need a lot more hard information in this thread.

Great ISF Job by Chad B.
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post #653 of 8624 Old 02-04-2009, 08:56 AM
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Originally Posted by DTV TiVo Dealer View Post

Jeff, you continual bashing of Pioneer is getting a little old and frankly it reflects poorly.

-Robert

Not to me. Bland is right. I know about Pioneer Elites and how Pioneer sticks with its products. I own a Pioneer Elite Pro 720 CRT and they never solved the S-Video problem on that unit. I've purchased their DVD players both the DV-37 and the DV-59AVI. They both had failures during the warranty. I'd be very concern that the '09 has shipped without DTS-MA. There are a lot of blu-rays with this codec so its necessary. Bashing the '09 makes one think about their options. If Bland can blast his own product, he certainly can blast another's.
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post #654 of 8624 Old 02-04-2009, 09:05 AM
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I'm going to weigh in lightly about this back and forth battle that i've seen here as well as the 51/05 thread. I apologize in advance because this will be lengthy. My experience working in the electrical engineering field for a global giant has taught me All manufactures have their problems when producing a quality consumer product! I don't care what their track record for quality is, or what it was. Global competition has forced ALL companies to cut corners, reduce overhead costs, and prematurely bring products to the market. Companies take cash flow from their R&D departments and allocate it towards their P.C.T.O. department. For those of you who don't know what P.C.T.O. means... it's Product Cost Take Out. I'm constantly included on the PCTO team. I'm always being told to make the same "quality" product at a fraction of the cost it currently is being produced for. In this day and age, PCTO KILLS a quality company like Pioneer, Denon, Samsung, ETC. You can't keep taking money out of a product without it's overall quality and efficiency suffering. With this said........I guarantee that's what were facing with problematic consumer products! ANYTHING built today is not of the quality standard of 10-20+ years ago. Technologically advanced YES. Quality NO.

I know... what's this have to do with this thread or bickering? A lot.
I bought my first Denon product back in 1992. It was a 5 disc carousel CD player. I still have, and use it. Everything works on it and it has given me NO problems. WHY? Standard of quality back then. I've owned many other Denon products over the years. AVRs, DVD players, DVD changers, CD changers, their quality has decreased dramatically. I've had lasers go out, displays go out, etc.... Do I blame Denon whole heartedly? No. I was upset like anybody would be but I knew Denon put out quality products. My Denon DVD3910 was introduced to consumers prematurely. Denon knew they had the HDMI handshake issue but they brought it out anyway. They wanted to be on the forefront of the HDMI technology. I was wowed by that HDMI capabilty....did it work? No, not untill a FW revision, which took them some time. The people bitched.... I have since moved on to the Pioneer Elite front. I reviewed for months before I bought my current theater equipment. People told me don't buy brand X because their junk, don't buy brand Y because they have lousy customer support. I bought my equipment based on the MAJORITY of the people on this forum. More positive comments then negative ones. Review people! Keep an open mind. Pioneer has demonstrated it's viable for great products, Denon has always put out a great product until about 2001. They are still good but that's when, IMHO, their quality started to decline. Denon's AVRs are still great but I probably won't buy another CD or DVD player.

FWIW....people bitching about FW update for DTS-MA. Pioneer, like any other company in this POS economy, probably has their FW programming department pulling double or triple duties because they are understaffed and have a hiring freeze. They probably are running IT duties as well.... so have some patience. It's not that they don't CARE, they do, but running two departments is tedious....trust me I KNOW. I told you I'm long winded
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post #655 of 8624 Old 02-04-2009, 09:22 AM
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could we please limit posts to the thread title?

The Pioneer Elite BDP-09FD Owner's Thread...

thanks
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post #656 of 8624 Old 02-04-2009, 09:47 AM
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I have had my 09 now for 5 days and I have had no problems. Great player.

Dave
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post #657 of 8624 Old 02-04-2009, 10:09 AM
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Own the Denon 3800 and the 2930 and they died on me. Would even read the DVD media. Not really a big Denon fan.

The 09 sounds like a nice peice.
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post #658 of 8624 Old 02-04-2009, 10:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sillysally View Post

I don't think you can compare the chip set in the Denon 3930 with the BD-09.
I own a Denon 3930 and have never seen what you are talking about. I never had the pio you had but I did have a Oppo. Both the Denon and Oppo were very good players. My preference was the Denon.

What size projector/plasma/lcd are you using for the Oppo/Denon?
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post #659 of 8624 Old 02-04-2009, 10:28 AM
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How about a home theatre picture:



Here's what I have:

B&W Matrix 802 Speakers
Panasonic 42" 800U Plasma

On the Right Stand:
Tandberg 3006a Power Amp-150 watts per channel

On The Left Stand (Top to bottom):
Forte Model 1 Pre-Amp
Comcast Cable Box
Pioneer Elite BDP-09
Panamax M5300 Power Conditioner
Pioneer Laser Disc Player (Something has to fill the space)
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post #660 of 8624 Old 02-04-2009, 11:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markrubin View Post

could we please limit posts to the thread title?

The Pioneer Elite BDP-09FD Owner's Thread...

thanks


^^^^
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