The Pioneer Elite BDP-09FD Owner's Thread... - Page 291 - AVS | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #8701 of 8727 Old 01-26-2015, 08:24 PM
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Originally Posted by b curry View Post
For Blu-ray playback, bitstreamed over HDMI, no difference as the decoding and DA conversion will take place in your AVR.


The differences if any will be in the use of the machines for analog playback of CD's. The 88 has balanced analog outputs vs. single ended on the 85. The 88 has both coax and optical digital outs vs. coax only for the 85. There is also a different count in the number of DAC's used. You'll have to find the product brochure sheets to compare the other differences. I do remember the usual blather about build quality, big transformer etc.


I think it was stated by the Pioneer rep in the other thread about these players that the primary market/target market for these two players was Japan for CD playback as CD's were still alive and the media of choice for music. Maybe you want to look at that thread.


If your using the machine for both two channel CD playback as well as Blu-ray playback then maybe it's a good choice for you. If it's Blu-ray/DVD only then I don't see the point in spending the money other than you just like the looks of it and want or must have Pioneer.


Another thing to consider, the Analog Sunset has kicked in. That means no analog video outputs and you can only get multi-channel audio via HDMI as there are no multi-channel analog outputs on either machine. Again, you would have the decoding and DA conversion taking place in your AVR for multi-channel audio support. The DAC's in these machines would only come into play for two channel analog as far as I can see.
Which thread is that...?

So, in other words if I use HDMI - there is no difference between the LX58 and the LX 88.....

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post #8702 of 8727 Old 01-27-2015, 04:40 AM
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Originally Posted by HDTVAV View Post
Which thread is that...?
You do seem to be incredibly lazy...

You just need to scroll down the page a few inches, here's the link:
Pioneer Elite BDP-85FD and BDP-88FD Blu-ray Players at CEDIA 2014

While we're spoon feeding, here's the pdf's of the specifications for the BDP-88/85. You can click and view or print them so you can make your own comparisons.

http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/ep...le%20Sheet.pdf
http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/ep...le%20Sheet.pdf

If you care to look at post number #103 in the other thread, by Chris Walker (Walkamo) who is the Pioneer representative, he talks about the BDP-88/85 being targeted at high resolution audio in the Japanese and European markets.

Just in case your clicking finger isn't working, here's his quote:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Walkamo View Post
Hey Guys,

Have not been in these forums for quite some time.. I have only played with the BDP-88FD during the Cedia show. Have not had a chance to compare it to my Oppo BDP-105 (Yes I use a BDP-105). The build quality is quite nice and the picture did look very good. (We had it hooked up to a Panasonic 65" 4K TV that accepted 4:4:4 color).

I understand why people are surprised that these players are being launched so late in Blu-ray's life, however in other countries (Japan mainly), our BD player marketshare is quite large and the demand for a high end player is there. I do not expect a large quantity to be sold in the United States, however anyone looking to squeeze every bit of performance out of a Blu-ray, DVD, CD, or high res file the BDP-88FD makes sense. High Resolution audio is very popular in Japan and Europe and the BDP-88FD was designed to be a very high quality source device for these files.

I am currently at LAX Airport on my way to Japan for product planning meetings and to see the 88FD compared directly to the Oppo. I am very curious to see the results as well..

Not trying to sway anyone in any direction. Just giving out some facts...

If you have any specific questions about the players just ask. If I do not know I can ask the engineers..

Also, here is a nice pic of the BDP-88FD (exploded view).

Chris Walker
Pioneer Electronics

Quote:
Originally Posted by HDTVAV View Post

So, in other words if I use HDMI - there is no difference between the LX58 and the LX 88.....
You've asked this question several times. Are you hoping the answer is going to change if you keep asking? Really, if you want to buy one of these machines just buy it. It really doesn't mater what I think or what the technology does or doesn't do if you've got your heart set on it, buy it.

But, just in case, one more time.

If you bitstream over HDMI, the decoding and DA conversion takes place in the AVR or pre-pro.

If you send PCM over HDMI, the decoding takes place at the Blu-ray player and the DA conversion is done at the AVR or the pre-pro. If you use PCM over HDMI the DTS-MA etc. lights on your AVR or pre-pro will not light up as the decoding is being done at the Blu-ray player.

In either case, bitstream or PCM over HDMI, the DA conversion is taking place at your AVR or pre-pro and you will have the "sound" of the AVR or pre-pro because that's where the DA conversion is taking place.

The DAC's in the DBP-88/85 will not be used for bitstreaming or PCM over HDMI. The BDP-88/85 will serve as transports to read the disc and send the data to the AVR or pre-pro for processing. In that way, the machines are equal. One step further, if you're using the machines as a transport only then any Blu-ray player preforms the same task regardless of price or brand name, that is, they read the data from the disc and send it to the AVR or pre-pro for decoding and DA conversion.

Your welcome!
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post #8703 of 8727 Old 01-27-2015, 04:44 AM
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Originally Posted by b curry View Post
For Blu-ray playback, bitstreamed over HDMI, no difference as the decoding and DA conversion will take place in your AVR.


The differences if any will be in the use of the machines for analog playback of CD's. The 88 has balanced analog outputs vs. single ended on the 85. The 88 has both coax and optical digital outs vs. coax only for the 85. There is also a different count in the number of DAC's used. You'll have to find the product brochure sheets to compare the other differences. I do remember the usual blather about build quality, big transformer etc.


I think it was stated by the Pioneer rep in the other thread about these players that the primary market/target market for these two players was Japan for CD playback as CD's were still alive and the media of choice for music. Maybe you want to look at that thread.


If your using the machine for both two channel CD playback as well as Blu-ray playback then maybe it's a good choice for you. If it's Blu-ray/DVD only then I don't see the point in spending the money other than you just like the looks of it and want or must have Pioneer.


Another thing to consider, the Analog Sunset has kicked in. That means no analog video outputs and you can only get multi-channel audio via HDMI as there are no multi-channel analog outputs on either machine. Again, you would have the decoding and DA conversion taking place in your AVR for multi-channel audio support. The DAC's in these machines would only come into play for two channel analog as far as I can see.
The 88 is geared toward the two-channel setup, be it audio or video, so it would be a good choice for me and others who have such. If the 88 has better DACs than one's AVR, maybe there's a way to decode in the player; a manual will be helpful. With the 09, of course, everything is in place. It would be interesting to me to compare the two players sound-wise.
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post #8704 of 8727 Old 01-27-2015, 05:16 AM
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Originally Posted by prepress View Post
The 88 is geared toward the two-channel setup, be it audio or video, so it would be a good choice for me and others who have such. If the 88 has better DACs than one's AVR, maybe there's a way to decode in the player; a manual will be helpful. With the 09, of course, everything is in place. It would be interesting to me to compare the two players sound-wise.
I think both players are targeting 2-channel, just at different price points. It looks to me like a repeat of the BDP-05/51FD and BDP-09FD marketing plan. The primary differences between the BDP-88 and 85 are dual differential DAC's for a little better S/N ratio on paper and some extra output choices for CD playback. That and the build quality card that hooks a lot of people. Everything else is more or less the same.

Analog Sunset has kicked in and I don't see any possible way to use the internal DAC's for lossless multi-channel playback or over HDMI. To do so would be to re-write how HDMI works and there are no multi-channel outs on these machines like the old BDP-05/51FD and BDP-09FD players.

For me these new machines are just an alternate choice to the Oppo BDP-103/105 at a much higher price point. Pioneer is a day late and a dollar short to the party IMHO. But as Walkamo stated, the target market was/is Japan.

If I was in the market for a new CD player and knowing how fast the price will drop on these machines, I would consider picking one up at year end or first of next year. But as a Blu-ray player I have no interest as they offer nothing over Oppo or any cheaper players if your main interest is to bitstream Blu-ray.

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post #8705 of 8727 Old 01-27-2015, 12:40 PM
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I'm just curious about a thing. Could you try it out ?

The CA and Oppos (for the D versions IDK) are known to have strange behaviors on some setup settings, that affected the sound while they shouldn't.

Some of those are :

- resolution (try 720p instead of 1080p)
- TV standard (PAL or NTSC)
- bass management (try different downmix settings)

All these on my CA gave different results, on EVERY outputs (HDMI, coax, optical, analog multi or stereo).

My point is, what if the changes we hear came from somewhere between the disc and the HDMI chain ? What if the mainboard was bugged and produced such strange (and abnormal) behaviors ?
I'm not being sarcastic, it's a real question.
Btw, on the pioneer the only things that affected sound, was LPCM or bitstream, nothing else, on the CA, almost a dozen settings (note this has been reported several times on this forum for the 105 too).
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post #8706 of 8727 Old 01-27-2015, 12:49 PM
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Originally Posted by b curry View Post
You've asked this question several times. Are you hoping the answer is going to change if you keep asking? Really, if you want to buy one of these machines just buy it. It really doesn't mater what I think or what the technology does or doesn't do if you've got your heart set on it, buy it.
And, with all due respect, you never really answered the question...

Your answer is - unless you like the pretty box - go buy something cheaper...

That was not my question...

However, from reading your posts (and thank you by the way for answering and taking the time to explain in depth - it is greatly appreciated) - I can discern that if I am only using HDMI - that there is no difference between the LX88 and LX58 - and that I should get the LX58.

Thanks again for all of your help!

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post #8707 of 8727 Old 01-27-2015, 01:33 PM
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Originally Posted by HDTVAV View Post
And, with all due respect, you never really answered the question...

Your answer is - unless you like the pretty box - go buy something cheaper...

That was not my question...

However, from reading your posts (and thank you by the way for answering and taking the time to explain in depth - it is greatly appreciated) - I can discern that if I am only using HDMI - that there is no difference between the LX88 and LX58 - and that I should get the LX58.

Thanks again for all of your help!
Now you've confused me...
Sorry, I thought I first answered your question in post #8684 and again in post #8687 and #8700 with post #8702 repeating the information again. The answer being if you bitstream over HDMI then your AVR does the decoding and DA conversion. Using a Blu-ray player this way, as a transport, makes them all equal for audio. Silly me...

And BTW, I'm not suggesting that you buy either of them. I really see them as a waste of money, especially if 4K Blu-ray comes to market at year end.
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post #8708 of 8727 Old 01-27-2015, 01:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lnarbi View Post
I'm just curious about a thing. Could you try it out ?

The CA and Oppos (for the D versions IDK) are known to have strange behaviors on some setup settings, that affected the sound while they shouldn't.

Some of those are :

- resolution (try 720p instead of 1080p)
- TV standard (PAL or NTSC)
- bass management (try different downmix settings)

All these on my CA gave different results, on EVERY outputs (HDMI, coax, optical, analog multi or stereo).

My point is, what if the changes we hear came from somewhere between the disc and the HDMI chain ? What if the mainboard was bugged and produced such strange (and abnormal) behaviors ?
I'm not being sarcastic, it's a real question.
Btw, on the pioneer the only things that affected sound, was LPCM or bitstream, nothing else, on the CA, almost a dozen settings (note this has been reported several times on this forum for the 105 too).
If this is directed to me, sorry, I can't help you as I don't have one of the two machines in question. I've never experienced any audio anomaly bitstreaming over HDMI.
Just as a suggestion as a place to start, down load the manuals for each machine and compare the audio signal reference chart in the manuals to your experience. Maybe you did have a bad main board as you suggest.

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post #8709 of 8727 Old 01-27-2015, 02:37 PM
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Didn't you say you own an Oppo 103 ?
If that's the case just TRY, just... try. Oppos and cambridge share the same mainboard, exactly, strictly, the same.
Did you ever change one of these settings while listening to something ? I guess not, and most won't because they set their settings once and for all. Just play some good classical music on an usb thumbdrive, and change the settings I listed before, and listen.
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post #8710 of 8727 Old 01-27-2015, 04:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lnarbi View Post
Didn't you say you own an Oppo 103 ?
If that's the case just TRY, just... try. Oppos and cambridge share the same mainboard, exactly, strictly, the same.
Did you ever change one of these settings while listening to something ? I guess not, and most won't because they set their settings once and for all. Just play some good classical music on an usb thumbdrive, and change the settings I listed before, and listen.

Yes, I have an Oppo BDP-103 but not the 752BD.


I hear no change in audio by changing video resolution settings.


I do not have a PAL display so there is no point in me using this setting.


My bass management is handled by outboard processing via bitstreamed over HDMI and is optimized for the room. So there is no point in me changing this setting. If I do change it, it does change the sound but that would be expected.
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post #8711 of 8727 Old 01-27-2015, 04:55 PM
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I'm not suggesting that you buy either of them. I really see them as a waste of money, especially if 4K Blu-ray comes to market at year end.
Now that may very well be true...

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post #8712 of 8727 Old 01-27-2015, 05:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by b curry View Post
And you turned off what features exactly to do that? Please quote the feature by page number and here's a link for a pdf of both manuals for your convenience: http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/St...ctions0523.pdf http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/St...ctions0518.pdf


The DAC's in the BDP-09FD and the SC-05 are exactly the same, Wolfson WM8740, how would one be better than the other? The only way to use the DAC's in the BDP-09FD for Blu-ray play back would be to use the analog outs.


Best picture quality compared to what? I owned a BDP-51FD a BDP-05FD and a BDP-09FD all at the same time and they were identical for Blu-ray video with the BDP-09FD having a slight edge for DVD video.


Look, I'm not talking about subjective listening experiments or golden ear superfluous blather. If you bitstream over HDMI the decoding and DA conversion for audio is done at the AVR or the pre-pro. And that includes the BDP-09FD. It's provable fact.
You are correct its only for video that you can make the bluray player the dedicated but not for audio.

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post #8713 of 8727 Old 01-27-2015, 05:26 PM
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Originally Posted by HDTVAV View Post
Now that may very well be true...
From what I have been reading it looks like next year these will come out not this year.

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post #8714 of 8727 Old 01-27-2015, 10:44 PM
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Originally Posted by b curry View Post
If I do change it, it does change the sound but that would be expected.
We're making progress, that's nice.
Allright, now why the hell would a bass management setting that only affect analog output (confirmed multiple times by oppo) give us a different sound on HDMI bitstream ?
Do you begin to see my point ?
HDMI bitstream itself should produce the same sound on every player on the market, fine, but what warranty do we have that the data received before entering the HDMI chain is genuine ? If you hear a change with bass management it proves data isn't genuine anymore, and that's I'm trying to explain here, as long as bitstream is selected there should not be a single one setting on the player that changes the sound.
There might be some conversions, or some odd things going on on some hidden place that we are not aware of... after all the player does what he wants, noone has a warranty that a menu settings really does what it is expected to.
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post #8715 of 8727 Old 01-28-2015, 06:05 AM
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Originally Posted by lnarbi View Post
We're making progress, that's nice.
Allright, now why the hell would a bass management setting that only affect analog output (confirmed multiple times by oppo) give us a different sound on HDMI bitstream ?
Do you begin to see my point ?
HDMI bitstream itself should produce the same sound on every player on the market, fine, but what warranty do we have that the data received before entering the HDMI chain is genuine ? If you hear a change with bass management it proves data isn't genuine anymore, and that's I'm trying to explain here, as long as bitstream is selected there should not be a single one setting on the player that changes the sound.
There might be some conversions, or some odd things going on on some hidden place that we are not aware of... after all the player does what he wants, noone has a warranty that a menu settings really does what it is expected to.
No, sorry, I don't see your point.

If you're bitstreaming into an AVR or pre-pro, the bass management is taking place at the AVR or pre-pro after decoding. And if you change a setting you would expect the hear a difference.

I would refer you to page 67 of the Oppo BDP-103 manual where it very clearly tells you what applies to audio configurations, what is affected and unaffected, using analog outputs vs. bitstream/LPCM over HDMI.

http://download.oppodigital.com/BDP1...glish_v1.2.pdf

The manual very clearly tells you that speaker configuration at the player is only working with analog outputs active. Down mix is a function to match the number of speakers you're using. The only bass management that is available from the player is the selection of large or small speakers and the cross over point.

The changes you're talking about are basic set-up parameters and of course some will make a difference and some will not as to the overall sound and whether or not your listening to lossy or lossless formats depending on the selected configuration. Almost all Blu-ray players have some or all of these features.

You really need to spend some time reading for understanding how bitstreaming works and how set-up of the machine will affect what you hear.

Edit: This is really beginning to get off topic. I would suggest you open a different thread to discuss your issues.







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post #8716 of 8727 Old 01-28-2015, 07:12 AM
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Please refrain from making personal attacks/insults. Address the issue cordially or move on, please. This is the Pioneer thread. Please take CA issues to CA thread.

Please use the report post button to alert staff to problematic posts. Never quote or respond to them yourself
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post #8717 of 8727 Old 01-29-2015, 04:12 PM
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Originally Posted by b curry View Post
No, sorry, I don't see your point.

If you're bitstreaming into an AVR or pre-pro, the bass management is taking place at the AVR or pre-pro after decoding. And if you change a setting you would expect the hear a difference.


Hi B Curry

Question for you about the bitstream, can you look on page 11 of 16 and 14 of 16 does the PQLS change what your saying??? there is a diagram explaing PQLS through hdmi

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post #8718 of 8727 Old 01-29-2015, 07:14 PM
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Hi B Curry

Question for you about the bitstream, can you look on page 11 of 16 and 14 of 16 does the PQLS change what your saying??? there is a diagram explaing PQLS through hdmi

Sure I'll look but what document is it that you want me to look at?


As far as I know or understand, if you have a Pioneer Blu-ray player connected to a Pioneer receiver, PQLS is supposed to work over HDMI bitstream. To be honest, when I have had a Pioneer Blu-ray player connected to a Pioneer receiver I could not hear a difference with PQLS on vs. off. YMMV.
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post #8719 of 8727 Old 03-04-2015, 06:51 PM
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Sure I'll look but what document is it that you want me to look at?


As far as I know or understand, if you have a Pioneer Blu-ray player connected to a Pioneer receiver, PQLS is supposed to work over HDMI bitstream. To be honest, when I have had a Pioneer Blu-ray player connected to a Pioneer receiver I could not hear a difference with PQLS on vs. off. YMMV.
Great news! I was able to procure a replacement drive for my 09FD. As a matter of fact, I purchased 2 so I'd have a backup WHEN the drive goes out again. And at $40 per unit (new), I'd say it's worth getting a backup.

Anyway, they have been shipped and will be installing the drive as soon as they are received. I can't wait to play BDs again on my player. It's been a long time.
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post #8720 of 8727 Old 03-14-2015, 03:07 PM
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Happy day for me! I replaced my broken drive on my 09FD with a new drive, and I am back in business! Thank you Inarbi for posting the model number of the replacement drive. I was successfully able to replace my non-functioning drive with a new drive and it is working perfectly now!

Wow, I really missed my player. Feels great to have her back!

And as happy as I am, this was a pain to replace. It wasn't simply a matter of just popping open the top and dropping a new drive in. I had to remove quite a few sections before I even got to the drive. Once I got to the drive, I had to take it apart and remove the PCB and swap it with the new drive. I forgot to do this the first time, and the player refused to play BDs. I can now do it pretty easily, but the first time took me about 2hrs.

Here are some picture of the process:










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post #8721 of 8727 Old 03-15-2015, 05:00 AM
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Anytime
It might be worth it to buy 1 or 2 spare drives provided that it's the only known problem of this player, it can still last very long then.

The drive pcb swap is mandatory, that tricks the player to think it's still the same drive, so nothing to be done to have it the new drive recognized.

For the ones who will do the drive swap, when you open the drive do not remove completely the drive housing or you will loose the 2 springs and it's a pain in the ass to know where they are coming from, although they are not mandatory for the drive to work, it's still better to have them in place, imo. Only remove the part where the screws are located.

Last edited by lnarbi; 03-15-2015 at 05:10 AM.
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post #8722 of 8727 Old 03-18-2015, 06:09 PM
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As above, beautiful pics!
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post #8723 of 8727 Old 03-28-2015, 07:10 PM
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I've messaged alibaba to send me a couple of drives thanks dude. Now if there was just a way to make my BDP-09 BD region free...
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post #8724 of 8727 Old Yesterday, 06:30 AM
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Well guys, I have so some bad news. It's seems like my player is having problems playing new BDs. So I'm having to use by 23FD to play those. It has the latest firmware, but still no go on John Wick and Get On UP.
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post #8725 of 8727 Old Today, 02:00 AM
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hmmm , now the guy at Alibaba tells me the laser have been cannibalised from Blu Ray players. The hunt for new lasers continues...
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post #8726 of 8727 Old Today, 02:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LaoChe View Post
Well guys, I have so some bad news. It's seems like my player is having problems playing new BDs. So I'm having to use by 23FD to play those. It has the latest firmware, but still no go on John Wick and Get On UP.
Which movie studio put those out?
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post #8727 of 8727 Unread Today, 09:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by prepress View Post
Which movie studio put those out?

John Wick is a Lionsgate title.


Get on Up is a Universal title.
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