The Pioneer Elite BDP-09FD Owner's Thread... - Page 37 - AVS Forum
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post #1081 of 8597 Old 02-13-2009, 06:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by owl1 View Post

My listening was done primarily with HDMI. It may be the transport is improved? It did seem a little smoother, less hashy/jittery. I'd guess some improvements in the antijitter or clock software interface tech as well as it did sound more settled. Again, bass and dynamics were improved and images just had a more defined hanging in space with body and layering effect with huge soundstage. I was going HDMI into the Classe SSP-800 and it's never sounded better although some might consider these statements controversial, it was clearly not just a subtle improvement .

So you're saying in a blind ABX test you believe you could tell the difference between the 51/05 and the 09 when using HDMI audio for both?

Sorry to belabor the question and I'm really not doubting you at all, but this is contrary to what I understood about HDMI audio between the two players. I know that the 51/05 and the 09 both have PQLS to reduce the jitter effect, but I was under the impression that the PQLS function was only available when used in conjunction with either an SC-07 or SC-09.

~kyle
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post #1082 of 8597 Old 02-13-2009, 07:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sillysally View Post

Why do you think using color measure 100% stim patterns would benefit.

I'm asking if the performance is linear i.e. do you get the same primary/seconday dE94 with 100% patterns as you do at 75% or is there a shift ?

D
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post #1083 of 8597 Old 02-13-2009, 08:31 AM
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Originally Posted by progprog View Post

You're welcome...glad it helped.

HDMI only carries digital signals, either bitstream or LPCM. So to answer your question, no. To get the benefit of the players's DACs, you must use the analog out connections.

Your second question regarding cables therefore becomes moot. There's no additional AD/DA conversion going on. This only happens once, either in the player (when using RCA analog cables) or in the receiver/processor (when using an HDMI cable).


I see, hmmm.

When you send audio over from 09 via LPCM, it's my understanding your allowing the 09 to decode the audio and video over HDMI.

When you decode the audio from the 09 this way don't you use the DAC's on the 09?
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post #1084 of 8597 Old 02-13-2009, 08:35 AM
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My 09 from Value Electronics will be here early next week! Can't wait!

Thanks Robert & Wendy.

p.s. pics will be a coming.
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post #1085 of 8597 Old 02-13-2009, 08:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by owl1 View Post

My listening was done primarily with HDMI. It may be the transport is improved? It did seem a little smoother, less hashy/jittery. I'd guess some improvements in the antijitter or clock software interface tech as well as it did sound more settled. Again, bass and dynamics were improved and images just had a more defined hanging in space with body and layering effect with huge soundstage. I was going HDMI into the Classe SSP-800 and it's never sounded better although some might consider these statements controversial, it was clearly not just a subtle improvement .

The jitter reduction on the 09 will not do a thing with your Classe SSP-800, this is only going to work in conjunction Pioneer SC-07 or SC-09. I don't know what you are hearing on your Classe(Fine eqiupment by the way) but the PQLS function is not one of them. The only real difference you would hear is via the analogs. Unless there is something else going on besides the PQLS.
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post #1086 of 8597 Old 02-13-2009, 08:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blownaway View Post

I see, hmmm.

When you send audio over from 09 via LPCM, it's my understanding your allowing the 09 to decode the audio and video over HDMI.

When you decode the audio from the 09 this way don't you use the DAC's on the 09?

The only time the DAC's from the 09 come into play is when the final output is from the analog out of the 09 to the AVR/prepro. If using HDMI from the 09, you are relying on the DAC's in the AVR/prepro.

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post #1087 of 8597 Old 02-13-2009, 09:01 AM
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Originally Posted by OzzieP View Post

The jitter reduction on the 09 will not do a thing with your Classe SSP-800, this is only going to work in conjunction Pioneer SC-07 or SC-09. I don't know what you are hearing on your Classe(Fine eqiupment by the way) but the PQLS function is not one of them. The only real difference you would hear is via the analogs. Unless there is something else going on besides the PQLS.

Thanks Ozzie,

Yes, it's odd, isn't it? Guess bits are just bits but something else is going on with this HDMI implementation for sure. The 05 has PQLS also, so don't think it could be attributable to simply that for sure, and for the record I never claimed it was PQLS. Something is at work here to be sure. Maybe it's the brass screws?

As far as hearing the differences in a blind test, all I can say is in this system it's a very audible difference. I do have separates and pretty resolving speakers (Wilson) so I'm not sure if I could say for sure that it would pass an ABX test if you proces your sound through a receiver, and have less resolving speakers even with the very good Elite's. I did hear some subtle differences between the 95BFD and the 05 via my VSX94TXH so I would not be at all surprised if it were quite audible in those setups as well.
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post #1088 of 8597 Old 02-13-2009, 10:13 AM
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Originally Posted by Clark Burk View Post

I'm having a tough time getting Goggle to do the translation on this.


Yeah, I wasn't sure what language to select either.....
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post #1089 of 8597 Old 02-13-2009, 10:16 AM
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Originally Posted by EWL5 View Post

The only time the DAC's from the 09 come into play is when the final output is from the analog out of the 09 to the AVR/prepro. If using HDMI from the 09, you are relying on the DAC's in the AVR/prepro.


Hmm,

Quote from rdclark

"Assuming a receiver that can decode the lossless codecs, you can use HDMI two ways:

1) Let the player decode and send the resulting uncompressed multichannel audio as LPCM to the receiver, as long as the receiver can process incoming multichannel LPCM. This has the advantage that if the BD contains secondary audio information (PIP audio, button sounds, etc.) you will hear it, as the player will mix it with the primary audio before sending it to the receiver.

2) Send the audio untouched to the receiver, so that the receiver will decode it (this is "bitstreaming"). This has the advantage that the little indicator lights on your receiver that say "TrueHD" or "DTS-MA" will ight up.

There is no difference in the primary audio either way."

Ok, now my question. When you send the audio via LPCM to your receiver, the 09 decodes the audio but doesn't do the D/A conversion, right? The 09 just unzips the audio packets and sends them as LPCM to my receiver.

Video-wise does the 09 decode the video (using the Marvell chip), regardless if you set up your 09 to "bitstream" or "LPCM" output to your receiver?

Or, in order to have your 09 use it's Marvell video chip you must output LPCM.

Still connecting the dots, sorry....
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post #1090 of 8597 Old 02-13-2009, 10:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blownaway View Post

I see, hmmm.

When you send audio over from 09 via LPCM, it's my understanding your allowing the 09 to decode the audio and video over HDMI.

When you decode the audio from the 09 this way don't you use the DAC's on the 09?


No, if you go back to my little three-step description, you'll note that decoding to LPCM is one distinct step (Step 2), and DA conversion is another (Step 3).

So you're right that you're letting the 09 decode the audio when you send LPCM, but you are not letting it do the DA conversion. That still happens in the receiver/processor.
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post #1091 of 8597 Old 02-13-2009, 10:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blownaway View Post

Hmm,

Quote from rdclark

"Assuming a receiver that can decode the lossless codecs, you can use HDMI two ways:

1) Let the player decode and send the resulting uncompressed multichannel audio as LPCM to the receiver, as long as the receiver can process incoming multichannel LPCM. This has the advantage that if the BD contains secondary audio information (PIP audio, button sounds, etc.) you will hear it, as the player will mix it with the primary audio before sending it to the receiver.

2) Send the audio untouched to the receiver, so that the receiver will decode it (this is "bitstreaming"). This has the advantage that the little indicator lights on your receiver that say "TrueHD" or "DTS-MA" will ight up.

There is no difference in the primary audio either way."

Ok, now my question. When you send the audio via LPCM to your receiver, the 09 decodes the audio but doesn't do the D/A conversion, right? The 09 just unzips the audio packets and sends them as LPCM to my receiver.

Video-wise does the 09 decode the video (using the Marvell chip), regardless if you set up your 09 to "bitstream" or "LPCM" output to your receiver?

Or, in order to have your 09 use it's Marvell video chip you must output LPCM.

Still connecting the dots, sorry....

The video and audio processing are completely separate. Whether you bitstream or use LPCM has no bearing on the video.

You are correct about decoding versus D/A decoding. I would add that many feel there are more advantages to letting the receiver do the decoding beyond having the indicator lights come on. (No jitter, potentially better audio/video synch, depending on the receiver/processor, etc)
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post #1092 of 8597 Old 02-13-2009, 10:52 AM
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"The video and audio processing are completely separate. Whether you bitstream or use LPCM has no bearing on the video."

So either way the 09 does all the video processing with LPCM or bitstreaming to receiver?

When everyone boasts about the sound they get from the 09 not using analog outputs and running bitstream audio, what they are really saying is how good their pre/pro/receiver sounds because the 09 doesn't have any affect on the sound.

On the other hand for folks that boast about the sound on the 09 using LPCM (not using analog outputs), they can say that the 09 does contribute to the great sound due to how it reads &"unzips" the packets of audio and releases as LPCM.

And for those that boast about the sound of the 09 using analog outputs who can say the 09 reads/unzips to LPCM plus does the D/A conversion.

Making sense yet?
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post #1093 of 8597 Old 02-13-2009, 11:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim Glover View Post

My 09 from Value Electronics will be here early next week! Can't wait!

Thanks Robert & Wendy.

p.s. pics will be a coming.

+1 I just took the plunge myself. Replacing my new BDP05 with the BDP09! I can't wait to see what it can do hooked up to my 141 plasma and Integra DHC 9.9 processor.
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post #1094 of 8597 Old 02-13-2009, 11:15 AM
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Is everyone here Thanking Robert & Wendy when buying this unit or should I thank anyone else for this?

I am waiting to see if pioneer actually comes thru with a good working firnware and if they do I need to know who to thank.
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post #1095 of 8597 Old 02-13-2009, 11:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blownaway View Post

"The video and audio processing are completely separate. Whether you bitstream or use LPCM has no bearing on the video."

So either way the 09 does all the video processing with LPCM or bitstreaming to receiver?

When everyone boasts about the sound they get from the 09 not using analog outputs and running bitstream audio, what they are really saying is how good their pre/pro/receiver sounds because the 09 doesn't have any affect on the sound.

On the other hand for folks that boast about the sound on the 09 using LPCM (not using analog outputs), they can say that the 09 does contribute to the great sound due to how it reads &"unzips" the packets of audio and releases as LPCM.

And for those that boast about the sound of the 09 using analog outputs who can say the 09 reads/unzips to LPCM plus does the D/A conversion.

Making sense yet?

Yup, I think you're getting it!

You're absolutely right that the sound quality when bitstreaming is all about your receiver/processor, not anything the player is doing.

Your second point is a little fuzzier- the packetized data includes it's own timing data. So if you unzip in the player, that's where the clocking is applied, potentially introducing jitter as the LPCM signals are read on the other end. (Personally, I don't think jitter is especially relevant in HT applications, but I'm sure some would disagree.) If you let the receiver/processor do the unzipping, there can't be any clocking conflicts and therefore no jitter.

And finally, yes on the third point. Those who talk about the great analog audio in their 09 are letting the player do all the unzipping and D/A conversion. This is the only scenario, IMO, where it makes any sense to talk about the "audio quality" of the 09.
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post #1096 of 8597 Old 02-13-2009, 11:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluedevilfan View Post

+1 I just took the plunge myself. Replacing my new BDP05 with the BDP09! I can't wait to see what it can do hooked up to my 141 plasma and Integra DHC 9.9 processor.

Congrats! Do you expect to use the 09's analog audio, or HDMI?
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post #1097 of 8597 Old 02-13-2009, 11:23 AM
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Originally Posted by progprog View Post

Exactly. But I don't think it needs to be a $10-20K unit. I am so happy with the performance of my processor for HT that I already know I won't use analog, but for anyone who isn't sure, I think joerod's and others' reviews emphasize the benefit of trying it both ways and see which you prefer.

If you don't mind me asking, what processor are you using? I'm using the Integra DHC 9.9 linked up to a Cinenova grande 7 channel. Using Balanced XLRs. Unless I'm mistaken, My Integra has the Reon chipset. Ruined has reported that the 51/05 does a better job processing then the Reon. What's your take on this?
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post #1098 of 8597 Old 02-13-2009, 11:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by progprog View Post

Congrats! Do you expect to use the 09's analog audio, or HDMI?

Thanks! Currently, I'm using HDMI to connect my 05 to the DHC 9.9 BUT it sounds like, based on OPs statements, I need to try the analog outs on the 09! I'm happy running with HDMI but if analog takes it to another level then I'll be changing.
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post #1099 of 8597 Old 02-13-2009, 11:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluedevilfan View Post

If you don't mind me asking, what processor are you using? I'm using the Integra DHC 9.9 linked up to a Cinenova grande 7 channel. Using Balanced XLRs. Unless I'm mistaken, My Integra has the Reon chipset. Ruined has reported that the 51/05 does a better job processing then the Reon. What's your take on this?

I have the Denon AVP-A1HDCI (I did not make up that name!). It also uses Silicon Optix VP, the Realta, but I actually don't use that much. All my HD sources (Blu-Ray, HD-DVD, PS3) are set to pass-through, and the other sources that are connected to it just don't get used all that much.

I've been so happy with the VP in my Pioneer BDP-95FD that I don't apply any alternate/further processing. (That player is slower than the second coming, but that's another story....) Personally, I guess I prefer to use as little processing as possible unless a source clearly needs it, and HD sources just don't really need it, IMO.

For audio, I let the Denon handle everything. I bypass it for just regular TV watching, but for everything else I use digital connections and let the Denon work its magic.
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post #1100 of 8597 Old 02-13-2009, 12:39 PM
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If I am correct your MC 12 HDMI is not 1.3a compliant, (does not support the new HD codecs) therefore it will only be converting standard Dolby 5.1 or DTS 5.1 not Dolby Tru-HD or DTS-HD MA thru its HDMI input. Hence you are not comparing apples with apples, thats why the 09 analogue would be better sounding in your case.
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post #1101 of 8597 Old 02-13-2009, 12:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cvetan1 View Post

just don't know if it's really worth it since my screen is only 50"?

good question, I wondering if the BDP-09FD would be worth using with a 42 inch Kuro?
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post #1102 of 8597 Old 02-13-2009, 12:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WestCoastD View Post

good question, I wondering if the BDP-09FD would be worth using with a 42 inch Kuro?

Thanks for the bump, my question keeps getting avoided.

Is there anyone here who has a 50" 111-fd or 5020, using the BDP-09 noticing a difference or had an 05 for comparison?

Seriously, I'm trying to justify spending 2k on the 09 somehow.
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post #1103 of 8597 Old 02-13-2009, 12:54 PM
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By the way, with all the processing going on in this unit, how hot does it run? Stacking isn't usually a good idea, but space may make it necessary to put, say, my tuner (least-used component I have) on top.
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post #1104 of 8597 Old 02-13-2009, 12:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by multimedes View Post

If I am correct your MC 12 HDMI is not 1.3a compliant, (does not support the new HD codecs) therefore it will only be converting standard Dolby 5.1 or DTS 5.1 not Dolby Tru-HD or DTS-HD MA thru its HDMI input. Hence you are not comparing apples with apples, thats why the 09 analogue would be better sounding in your case.

No, that's not correct. The player can still convert the HD codecs to LPCM and he still gets their full benefit. They are just decoded in the player rather than the processor.
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post #1105 of 8597 Old 02-13-2009, 01:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cvetan1 View Post

Thanks for the bump, my question keeps getting avoided.

Is there anyone here who has a 50" 111-fd or 5020, using the BDP-09 noticing a difference or had an 05 for comparison?

Seriously, I'm trying to justify spending 2k on the 09 somehow.

Well, that is certainly a valid consideration. As screen size goes up, video issues become much more obvious. Conversely, they tend to diminish as screen size goes down.

I have both the 50" and 60" Kuros, fed by identical TiVo S3s. It's really noticeable how much better the same TV content looks on the 50" panel.
Personally, I would not buy TOTL source components for that setup, but then it's not my primary HT either. If I were you, if it's at all possible, I'd go to a showroom and compare an 09 and 05 on the 111FD itself. That's the only way to really know.
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post #1106 of 8597 Old 02-13-2009, 01:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by progprog View Post

Well, that is certainly a valid consideration. As screen size goes up, video issues become much more obvious. Conversely, they tend to diminish as screen size goes down.

I have both the 50" and 60" Kuros, fed by identical TiVo S3s. It's really noticeable how much better the same TV content looks on the 50" panel.
Personally, I would not buy TOTL source components for that setup, but then it's not my primary HT either. If I were you, if it's at all possible, I'd go to a showroom and compare an 09 and 05 on the 111FD itself. That's the only way to really know.

Thanks for the response! However, that is kinda hard over here in Iraq.

That's a good idea though, I just hope when I'm home in a few months that Pioneer will still be in the showrooms.
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post #1107 of 8597 Old 02-13-2009, 01:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by progprog View Post

Yup, I think you're getting it!

You're absolutely right that the sound quality when bitstreaming is all about your receiver/processor, not anything the player is doing.

So by this logic, using HDMI or digital coax or optical from a Radio Shack brand player or some cheaply made pile o'crappola with a digital output is no different than a BDP-09FD or if we're talking audio only a high-end Mark Levinson CD transport??? WRONG! Why this MYTH gets regurgitated is mind-boggling and a huge pet peeve. Why is this assumption so wrong? Because digital is just 0s and 1s right?

The job of the transport is to read the contents of the disc and send that data to the DAC. Timing errors called "jitter" at the picosecond level (the time it takes light to travel inches) have been shown to have audible degradation to sound quality. There is no such thing as a device that produces absolutely no jitter. Maybe someday, but not yet. Further, where those errors occur can affect some frequencies more than others. These errors then get converted to analog by the DAC. So one transport with one 'jitter signature' and another with a different 'jitter signature' will therefore sound different. So the harmonic structure of the original signal can get meaningfully affected by transport jitter before it ever gets to the DAC. Now overall the DAC is doing the heavier lifting. But the TRANSPORT MATTERS.

Where I work, we substituted the 05 with the 09, both running HDMI for decoded LPCM going into the $8,000 Classe SSP-800 and the difference in sound quality between the two players was immediately apparent (in heavy favor of the 09). When we first fired it up, we were doing so to first judge picture quality differences, but the sonic difference was so evident, we ended up noting it first. Now less scientifically provable but evident when listening is that transports (or players being used as transports) that are built like tanks with big power supplies and that shield the signal from the noise being generated within the device (also a sign of better construction and an indicator that the manufacturer believes these things impact sound quality) invariably sound better, and usually by a subjectively pretty big margin.

I don't mean to rant, but if you have not done your own analysis of a topic, then don't declare absolutes like 'the transport doesn't matter'. Because in this case, it most definitely does.
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post #1108 of 8597 Old 02-13-2009, 01:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Wallace View Post

So by this logic, using HDMI or digital coax or optical from a Radio Shack brand player or some cheaply made pile o'crappola with a digital output is no different than a BDP-09FD or if we're talking audio only a high-end Mark Levinson CD transport??? WRONG! Why this MYTH gets regurgitated is mind-boggling and a huge pet peeve. Why is this assumption so wrong? Because digital is just 0s and 1s right?

The job of the transport is to read the contents of the disc and send that data to the DAC. Timing errors called "jitter" at the picosecond level (the time it takes light to travel inches) have been shown to have audible degradation to sound quality. There is no such thing as a device that produces absolutely no jitter. Maybe someday, but not yet. Further, where those errors occur can affect some frequencies more than others. These errors then get converted to analog by the DAC. So one transport with one 'jitter signature' and another with a different 'jitter signature' will therefore sound different. So the harmonic structure of the original signal can get meaningfully affected by transport jitter before it ever gets to the DAC. Now overall the DAC is doing the heavier lifting. But the TRANSPORT MATTERS.

Where I work, we substituted the 05 with the 09, both running HDMI for decoded LPCM going into the $8,000 Classe SSP-800 and the difference in sound quality between the two players was immediately apparent (in heavy favor of the 09). When we first fired it up, we were doing so to first judge picture quality differences, but the sonic difference was so evident, we ended up noting it first. Now less scientifically provable but evident when listening is that transports (or players being used as transports) that are built like tanks with big power supplies and that shield the signal from the noise being generated within the device (also a sign of better construction and an indicator that the manufacturer believes these things impact sound quality) invariably sound better, and usually by a subjectively pretty big margin.

I don't mean to rant, but if you have not done your own analysis of a topic, then don't declare absolutes like 'the transport doesn't matter'. Because in this case, it most definitely does.

Yes, LPCM might be more susceptible to jitter, but not bitstreamed (unpacked) audio data. You had scolded the poster that you quoted on such, but he said he was bitstreaming.

Jitter has it place in audiophile, dedicated music recordings... but is essentially a non issue with the multi-track, highly procr0ssed audio that is a movie soundtrack. Explosions, surround ambiance, and dialog at high levels don't suffer any significant jitter impact like a single track, Sheffield like recording of a cello solo or such... an instrument with a known reference as to its true sound. No such thing in a multi-tracked movie soundtrack.

There are more than a handful of [op amps] that sound so good that most designers want to be using them as opposed to discreet transistors. Dave Reich, Theta 2009
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post #1109 of 8597 Old 02-13-2009, 01:30 PM
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Originally Posted by progprog View Post

No, that's not correct. The player can still convert the HD codecs to LPCM and he still gets their full benefit. They are just decoded in the player rather than the processor.

Thanks for the clarification.
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post #1110 of 8597 Old 02-13-2009, 01:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Cvetan1 View Post

Thanks for the response! However, that is kinda hard over here in Iraq.

That's a good idea though, I just hope when I'm home in a few months that Pioneer will still be in the showrooms.

You take care over there, buddy! I'm sure there'll still be some here for you when you come back.
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