The Pioneer Elite BDP-09FD Owner's Thread... - Page 5 - AVS Forum
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post #121 of 8624 Old 01-25-2009, 02:31 PM
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Originally Posted by adidino View Post

The BDP-320 even more so..

Not to veer too far OT (hey, we're all biding our time waiting for joe anyway ), but just curious why you say that?
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post #122 of 8624 Old 01-25-2009, 02:36 PM
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Originally Posted by alebonau View Post

somehow dont quite think it has the form factor to fit all the 09's goodness in. but maybe a good question for chris walkamo if we didnt need the analog side of the 09 player would the 23fd give over hdmi for audio(be it bitstreaming) and video quality jsut as well as the 09 here for both BD & DVD ?

In order for the 23FD to approach the quality of the 09 in pic quality, I think it would need that Marvell Qdeo to be included as a minimum. Doubtful that Pioneer will include one given the expected price point ($600).

Also, you need some differentiation to sell your product line and I think only the flagship AVR, BD player, etc. gets Qdeo.

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post #123 of 8624 Old 01-25-2009, 02:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by progprog View Post

Not to veer too far OT (hey, we're all biding our time waiting for joe anyway ), but just curious why you say that?

Profile 2.0, active rs232 port, more than likely will perform better than the 51/05 for under $400 retail. Curious to see how this player will perform. The sad part is our 05/51 will be worth hardly anything..


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post #124 of 8624 Old 01-25-2009, 02:38 PM
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Originally Posted by EWL5 View Post

In order for the 23FD to approach the quality of the 09 in pic quality, I think it would need that Marvell Qdeo to be included as a minimum. Doubtful that Pioneer will include one given the expected price point ($600).

Also, you need some differentiation to sell your product line and I think only the flagship AVR, BD player, etc. gets Qdeo.

Don't you think the high-end analog audio stuff is differentiation enough?
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post #125 of 8624 Old 01-25-2009, 02:39 PM
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Originally Posted by adidino View Post

Profile 2.0, active rs232 port, more than likely will perform better than the 51/05 for under $400 retail. Curious to see how this player will perform. The sad part is our 05/51 will be worth hardly anything..

I don't think the 320 offers serial control, does it?
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post #126 of 8624 Old 01-25-2009, 02:39 PM
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Originally Posted by progprog View Post

Don't you think the high-end analog audio stuff is differentiation enough?

No. What about customers that have HDMI receivers? The only attraction for them then would be the reference picture quality. If I can get that in a sub $1000 player, I wouldn't look twice at the flagship models. No one knows this little marketing game more than Joerod.

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post #127 of 8624 Old 01-25-2009, 02:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by progprog View Post

I don't think the 320 offers serial control, does it?

oops you are correct. The 23FD does.. Sorry about that.


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post #128 of 8624 Old 01-25-2009, 02:42 PM
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I should get the Pio 09-FD Blu ray player later next week and am excited about the intial reviews, I am trying to find out if analog out is the best option for sound quality, I have a pio elite SC-05 AV reciever and am wondering if I should run analog out to the reciever directly to get the best sound quality or bitstream or even PCM out the signal over HDMI via the pure audio method and have another HDMI cable running video only to my Pioneer Kuro 6020. I am new to home theater setups and would appreciate experienced advise.
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post #129 of 8624 Old 01-25-2009, 03:28 PM
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Originally Posted by eastor View Post

I should get the Pio 09-FD Blu ray player later next week and am excited about the intial reviews, I am trying to find out if analog out is the best option for sound quality, I have a pio elite SC-05 AV reciever and am wondering if I should run analog out to the reciever directly to get the best sound quality or bitstream or even PCM out the signal over HDMI via the pure audio method and have another HDMI cable running video only to my Pioneer Kuro 6020. I am new to home theater setups and would appreciate experienced advise.

If you don't care for special features, then your best bet is to bitstream to your new AVR and take advantage of MCACC. There's a chance analog may sound better but then you have to run a whole bunch of RCA cables and lose the advantages of the MCACC calibration. The KISS principle applies here I think.

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post #130 of 8624 Old 01-25-2009, 03:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DTV TiVo Dealer View Post

At one part of the demo Chris inserted a test disc with a horizontal split screen that had the gray scale test pattern of above white. The top half displayed the disc's 24 Bit image and the bottom half displayed the processed 48 Bit up-converted image. The up-converted 48 Bit image had no banding and a much smother quality.

Robert,
Is this an enhancement of the "deep color trick" in the 05/51 or the same as what's in the 05?

Bit OT, but...
I hope you're right on BD Audio. We need something to eventually "replace" SACD/DVDA. There is still a lot of potential for outstanding multichannel music, recordings that were either already done but never released or "on the books". Things like Pink Floyd Wish You Were Here, the rest of the Steely Dan catalog, upcoming King Crimson, old quad recordings that never made it, let alone pristine renditions of classical & jazz. Just like my 59AVI, someone will have to pry my SACD's & DVD-A's out of my dead hands. IMO, they are that much better than normal CD's.

BTW- I bought my 1st music-only BD, named Divertimenti, some post-classical pieces done in 5.1. Blu-ray case with the BD on 1 side and a hybrid SACD on the other. I didn't get around to listening this weekend, but am looking forward to the comparing the 2 discs.

ss9001

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post #131 of 8624 Old 01-25-2009, 04:19 PM
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Originally Posted by DTV TiVo Dealer View Post

Also Chris invited me to a special off site event at the Venetian where they had some very special guests and an amazing BD audio demonstration. BD audio is the next audiophiles frontier!

Indeed it is, which is why I want a player with excellent audio!
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post #132 of 8624 Old 01-25-2009, 04:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eastor View Post

I should get the Pio 09-FD Blu ray player later next week and am excited about the intial reviews, I am trying to find out if analog out is the best option for sound quality, I have a pio elite SC-05 AV reciever and am wondering if I should run analog out to the reciever directly to get the best sound quality or bitstream or even PCM out the signal over HDMI via the pure audio method and have another HDMI cable running video only to my Pioneer Kuro 6020. I am new to home theater setups and would appreciate experienced advise.

I have a SC-LX71(SC-05) and have my XE1 connected via RCA 5.1 & my 51-FD Blu ray connected via HDMI. The 51 sounds kicks the XE1 in my system as I find with the MCACC it adds a lot more detail and depth to my sound with the speakers I have connected. As such I have just ordered an extra HDMI cable to switch the XE1 over so I can bitstream and take advantage of MCACC.

Depending on your room and quality of your speakers you may enjoy anologue over HDMI, but I find I am liking HDMI. Also note most options around audio settings are switched off when using multi-channel on the SC-05. You have to rely on your player to configure the sound. There is however an option to add +10db to the lfe channel to work around the lack off bass that a lot of players produce.

Sorry to go OT thought it may be of use

PS the 09FD sounds like a lot of player, going to cost you more than the AVR, great if you want to go for it, there are many options out there, but this sounds like it will be one of the best on the market.
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post #133 of 8624 Old 01-25-2009, 04:26 PM
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Originally Posted by EWL5 View Post

In order for the 23FD to approach the quality of the 09 in pic quality, I think it would need that Marvell Qdeo to be included as a minimum. Doubtful that Pioneer will include one given the expected price point ($600).

Also, you need some differentiation to sell your product line and I think only the flagship AVR, BD player, etc. gets Qdeo.

According to Al Griffin in the Feb/Mar issue of S&V, the QDEO-equipped LG BD300 fails both HD HQV film and video resolution loss tests. Has anyone tested this on the Pio 09?
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post #134 of 8624 Old 01-25-2009, 04:27 PM
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Thanks for the info, it sounds like I will be missing out on the audio capabilities of the Blu ray player if I do bitstream, but I do like my new reciever's audio output, even over PCM which is what I am using for the PS3 until I get the Elite 09FD next week. I think I will try bitstream first with the pure audio setting. I have a smaller size room. Center and sides are about 10 feet from where I sit, back and surrounds are only 3 to 5 feet from where I sit, so the MCACC helps make the room sound better. I have def tec mythos 1 sides and mythos 3 center, def tec supercube II sub and 4 Promonitor 1000 surround speakers. Right now it sounds awesome for movies in 5.1 or 7.1, that is with the PS3 doing the sound decoding, so I am looking forward to see how well my reciever decodes the sound.
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post #135 of 8624 Old 01-25-2009, 04:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alebonau View Post

I can remember the dissapointment when realisation the 09 was not to be a full universal

as much as I would love to have SACD/DVD-A integrated into a "Super BD" player like the BDP-09FD it's probably best that it isn't. I believe it add's additional complexity to the laser/optical mechanics as well as related firmware, consequently more prone to failures (as evident with the recent Denon universal players). I'd rather place the focus, or "role", on exquisite BD, SD-DVD video, HD audio, and CD performance.
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post #136 of 8624 Old 01-25-2009, 04:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian-HD View Post

I agree with you with what users want to know.

1) Analog out
2) Load time
3) SD has been answered
4) Performance--user friendly
5) Built has been answered
6) BD should be the same with any other player
7) HDMI out same as 6
8) Software issue(s)


And I agree with you, too, and with the order you have prioritized.
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post #137 of 8624 Old 01-25-2009, 05:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cpcat View Post

According to Al Griffin in the Feb/Mar issue of S&V, the QDEO-equipped LG BD300 fails both HD HQV film and video resolution loss tests. Has anyone tested this on the Pio 09?

To the best of my knowledge the BD300 does not use this chip. The prior LG player the BD200 did use this chip and I believe it aced all the tests. LG must have tried to make a certain price point and decided to leave out the QDEO chip in the latest player.

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post #138 of 8624 Old 01-25-2009, 05:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Clark Burk View Post

To the best of my knowledge the BD300 does not use this chip. The prior LG player the BD200 did use this chip and I believe it aced all the tests. LG must have tried to make a certain price point and decided to leave out the QDEO chip in the latest player.

Interesting. The S&V article specifically states that it does. http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/blu...300-page3.html

However, further searching indicates that you are correct in that it does not. My bad.
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post #139 of 8624 Old 01-25-2009, 05:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WestCoastD View Post

as much as I would love to have SACD/DVD-A integrated into a "Super BD" player like the BDP-09FD it's probably best that it isn't. I believe it add's additional complexity to the laser/optical mechanics as well as related firmware, consequently more prone to failures (as evident with the recent Denon universal players). I'd rather place the focus, or "role", on exquisite BD, SD-DVD video, HD audio, and CD performance.

true, its how I rationalised it, better for pio to perfect the BD side before trying to cram in sacd/DVDa etc to over complicate things.

once they have got that side mastered, which I think theyre pretty close then lets hope one day they take to the next level with a trully universal player if for no other reason that the denon a1 universal gonna need some competition !

Quote:
Originally Posted by ss9001 View Post

~

BTW- I bought my 1st music-only BD, named Divertimenti, some post-classical pieces done in 5.1. Blu-ray case with the BD on 1 side and a hybrid SACD on the other. I didn't get around to listening this weekend, but am looking forward to the comparing the 2 discs.

ss9001

good one I'm lookgn to get hold the disc myself. I would hope the pio player here plays the 24/192 mch tracks on it.
ps there is a good thread here on the divertiment discs
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...8#post15649868
where maybe worth posting yoru thoughts once had a chance to experience

although I have media on all sorts of formats CD/LP/SACD/DVDA etc the future with BD music I think has some very exciting prospects

"Technology is a drug. We can't get enough of it."



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post #140 of 8624 Old 01-25-2009, 05:37 PM
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Originally Posted by joerod View Post

I am working on my part 2 now and wanted to make a quick post. I counted between 10 and 12 each time I powered up the 09FD. I didn't get out a stop watch but I would say that is about right. From the time you hit power until it says no disc.

Ah even better, thanks for that Joerod

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post #141 of 8624 Old 01-25-2009, 05:47 PM
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Originally Posted by progprog View Post

For those of us that plan to bitstream, PQ is obviously of utmost importance. But there are also all those other "user experience" factors. High-end refinement, rock-solid reliability, fast loads and responsiveness, glitch-free play of any BD I throw at it, and the CI features I need. IMO, there is still no player that truly fills that bill, and if this one finally does @$2k, I don't think that's a "waste" of money even if I'll never use its analog functions.

+1 I agree.

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The RS-232 Terminal works fine..

Tried to post here, however the PDF is 503kb.. Limit for AVS is 500k...

I will put it on our website tomorrow...

Chris


thanks for that Chris, thats good to know.

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post #142 of 8624 Old 01-25-2009, 05:57 PM
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Originally Posted by cpcat View Post

Interesting. The S&V article specifically states that it does. http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/blu...300-page3.html

However, further searching indicates that you are correct in that it does not. My bad.

Yes, the BH200 multi player (Blu-ray & HD-DVD) does have the Qdeo processing, LG cheaped out with the BD300 (Blu-ray only) and did not use Qdeo. The BH200 does a superb job at upconverting SD with Qdeo.

Although beyond my budget, this Pio appears to be an awesome player. I can only drool and dream.

Mike T



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My BDP-05FD, still going strong and still my favorite player!

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post #143 of 8624 Old 01-25-2009, 06:19 PM - Thread Starter
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Disclaimer: I want to first ask everyone not to get offended by any judgments or opinions. This comparison study is based on my takes and someone else may prefer something else. Do not take any comments personal. Especially when pertaining to the big 3. Each would make any home theater better and would easily take MVP honors.

Quick statement: Even if you "only" bitstream the 09FD is more than worth it.

Let's get started... For the majority of the comparison I (we) focused on the big 3 (09FD, Denon 3800 & Sony S5000ES). All have the latest firmware updates. For some "light" comparisons I used a 51FD (my bedroom unit), Panny BD35, PS3, Sammy 1500 and Insignia Blu ray unit.

Analog Audio... I (we) only compared the big 3 here. I was not surprised in the least when all scored well. Each have good to great build Q which I am certain played an integral part. I had help from my guests and we spent a good part of the day listening to these players. Each guest had their own clipboard to write notes and score each player. We judged them in a few categories and of course had an overall score for each category. Of the 6 "judges" 3 liked the 09FD, 2 the 3800 and one the S5000ES. What does this mean? We all agreed they are all damn good and anyone would be thrilled to have either or. The analog sound was exceptional going into my 886 PRO. I am now going to be torn between using analog and going my usual bitstream route. The insides of each unit are state of the art and I hate the thought of letting them go to waste! Seriously... If you are able to bitstream then you won't be disappointed either. If you are an analog fan then you will be rocked!
CDs in all three units sound very good. It was very hard picking a favorite but everyone had one. I was shocked when we had a three way tie. Sorry, no definite answer there... Speaking of my guests I held them prisoner for awhile today but released them with gift cards to BB and Marshalls (for the two ladies). I also raffled off the BD35 which the winner gave to the other guest since he already had one. That was a gentleman move! I appreciated them taking this serious. For my personal taste in Audio I preferred the Pioneer 09FD. Not by a lot. It was close and the Denon 3800 was only a point away. The S5000ES was only a point and a half away! There really is not a loser here. Bottom line, they all create ear candy.

Pic Q... My favorite category. I have said many times before we have reached the pinnacle in terms of pic Q. The 09FD has now become the new joerod standard (). I know I let the cat out of the bag early but it deserves to be free. The Denon 3800 and S5000ES are still top notch performers but the latest 09FD has them beat. I think the 48 bit color upconversion and 16 bit video are the key players. Of course the Marvell Qdeo chip doesn't hurt either. For Blu ray and regular SD dvds. The Sony S5000ES and Denon are both still to close to call. If I had to take one I would go for the S5000ES (between it and the 3800). The Superbit Mapping feature is cool and does give it a slight edge. And it is very reliable. Of course without doing any tweaks the 3800 and S5000ES are a dead tie. At least that is how I would call it. In my intro I mentioned about how these latest higher end models are coming with more and more pic adjustments. That is what separates them from the middle pack. Being able to calibrate them definitely gives them the edge. They have more adjustments than the majority of displays on the market. Especially th 3800 and 09FD! As for the middle pack they are all close but not on the same level. Of course depending on your display the difference could be from slight to significant. And smaller screens make it even harder. I am mainly referring to 1080p/24 Blu ray. The middle pack players do not come close with SD dvds. The 09FD, 3800 and S5000ES are at least a level or two higher. My pick is the 09FD. My guests were literally blown away with the SD dvd quality. You could easily argue that some of the better SD dvds look like real HD! And again all of the big 3 are very good with SD dvds and anyone would be more than satisfied with either or. And again (I know I just said that) there are absolutely no losers here. I for one am excited to see such amazing pic Q these days. I can't imagine how much better it can get from here!

I don't use stop watches. As for load times they are all pretty much nearly the same these days. The king is still the beloved PS3. The next closest player I have seen (and own) is my Oppo Blu ray player. I won't say anything else about it due to the NDA I have with them. As for the other players (including middle pack) they are all not as bad as it used to be. I remember the days of doing a comparison and being able to have a full conversation or an akward silence break while we waited. Now those uncomfortable silences are over!

Conclusion: I had a lot of fun doing this comparison study. In the next couple of days I will give more details. I am exhausted and am struggling not to sleep. I usually only sleep 4 to 5 hours a night to begin with but when you are actually doing homework () it is more straining. I will gladly answer any and all PMs (except hate ones) or questions here. Thanks again for everyone's support here.

Finally... A couple of picks of the Dark Knight from the 09FD with 48 bit color upconversion going and of course at 1080p/24.. If it looks over-saturated blame my camera. In person there is more depth, detail and overall natural eye candy that blew everyone away! The first pic is a scary close up of the joker. The last is a scary close up of Batman. The second (probably most important) is one I (we) used for one of our comparsion studies. The building had slight noise or moire' on nearly all the other players. The 09FD handled it like a champ. As it did the Professional Benchmark Blu ray disc I used for testing. The 09FD is the real deal. Congrats are in order for Pioneer starting off 2009 with the Blu ray/SD dvd player to beat... Test drive one!
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post #144 of 8624 Old 01-25-2009, 06:29 PM
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Thanks so much, joe!! You shouldn't have to issue the disclaimer...what you do is appreciated and most understand that you are not passing judgment them or their equipment.
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post #145 of 8624 Old 01-25-2009, 06:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joerod View Post

Disclaimer: I want to first ask everyone not to get offended by any judgments or opinions. This comparison study is based on my takes and someone else may prefer something else. Do not take any comments personal. Especially when pertaining to the big 3. Each would make any home theater better and would easily take MVP honors.

Quick statement: Even if you "only" bitstream the 09FD is more than worth it.

Let's get started... For the majority of the comparison I (we) focused on the big 3 (09FD, Denon 3800 & Sony S5000ES). All have the latest firmware updates. For some "light" comparisons I used a 51FD (my bedroom unit), Panny BD35, PS3, Sammy 1500 and Insignia Blu ray unit.

Analog Audio... I (we) only compared the big 3 here. I was not surprised in the least when all scored well. Each have good to great build Q which I am certain played an integral part. I had help from my guests and we spent a good part of the day listening to these players. Each guest had their own clipboard to write notes and score each player. We judged them in a few categories and of course had an overall score for each category. Of the 6 "judges" 3 liked the 09FD, 2 the 3800 and one the S5000ES. What does this mean? We all agreed they are all damn good and anyone would be thrilled to have either or. The analog sound was exceptional going into my 886 PRO. I am now going to be torn between using analog and going my usual bitstream route. The insides of each unit are state of the art and I hate the thought of letting them go to waste! Seriously... If you are able to bitstream then you won't be disappointed either. If you are an analog fan then you will be rocked!
CDs in all three units sound very good. It was very hard picking a favorite but everyone had one. I was shocked when we had a three way tie. Sorry, no definite answer there... Speaking of my guests I held them prisoner for awhile today but released them with gift cards to BB and Marshalls (for the two ladies). I also raffled off the BD35 which the winner gave to the other guest since he already had one. That was a gentleman move! I appreciated them taking this serious. For my personal taste in Audio I preferred the Pioneer 09FD. Not by a lot. It was close and the Denon 3800 was only a point away. The S5000ES was only a point and a half away! There really is not a loser here. Bottom line, they all create ear candy.

Pic Q... My favorite category. I have said many times before we have reached the pinnacle in terms of pic Q. The 09FD has now become the new joerod standard (). I know I let the cat out of the bag early but it deserves to be free. The Denon 3800 and S5000ES are still top notch performers but the latest 09FD has them beat. I think the 48 bit color upconversion and 16 bit video are the key players. Of course the Marvell Qdeo chip doesn't hurt either. For Blu ray and regular SD dvds. The Sony S5000ES and Denon are both still to close to call. If I had to take one I would go for the S5000ES (between it and the 3800). The Superbit Mapping feature is cool and does give it a slight edge. And it is very reliable. Of course without doing any tweaks the 3800 and S5000ES are a dead tie. At least that is how I would call it. In my intro I mentioned about how these latest higher end models are coming with more and more pic adjustments. That is what separates them from the middle pack. Being able to calibrate them definitely gives them the edge. They have more adjustments than the majority of displays on the market. Especially th 3800 and 09FD! As for the middle pack they are all close but not on the same level. Of course depending on your display the difference could be from slight to significant. And smaller screens make it even harder. I am mainly referring to 1080p/24 Blu ray. The middle pack players do not come close with SD dvds. The 09FD, 3800 and S5000ES are at least a level or two higher. My pick is the 09FD. My guests were literally blown away with the SD dvd quality. You could easily argue that some of the better SD dvds look like real HD! And again all of the big 3 are very good with SD dvds and anyone would be more than satisfied with either or. And again (I know I just said that) there are absolutely no losers here. I for one am excited to see such amazing pic Q these days. I can't imagine how much better it can get from here!

I don't use stop watches. As for load times they are all pretty much nearly the same these days. The king is still the beloved PS3. The next closest player I have seen (and own) is my Oppo Blu ray player. I won't say anything else about it due to the NDA I have with them. As for the other players (including middle pack) they are all not as bad as it used to be. I remember the days of doing a comparison and being able to have a full conversation or an akward silence break while we waited. Now those uncomfortable silences are over!

Conclusion: I had a lot of fun doing this comparison study. In the next couple of days I will give more details. I am exhausted and am struggling not to sleep. I usually only sleep 4 to 5 hours a night to begin with but when you are actually doing homework () it is more straining. I will gladly answer any and all PMs (except hate ones) or questions here. Thanks again for everyone's support here.

Finally... A couple of picks of the Dark Knight from the 09FD with 48 bit color upconversion going and of course at 1080p/24.. If it looks over-saturated blame my camera. In person there is more depth, detail and overall natural eye candy that blew everyone away! The first pic is a scary close up of the joker. The last is a scary close up of Batman. The second is one I (we) used for our comparsion study. The building had slight noise or moire' on nearly all the other players. The 09FD handled it like a champ. As it did the Professional Benchmark Blu ray disc I used for testing. The 09FD is the real deal. Congrats are in order for Pioneer starting off 2009 with the Blu ray/SD dvd player to beat... Test drive one!

Mate, thankyou for you unbiased review and thanks for taking the time out to do comparisions for us all. I for one appreciate reviews like this and it looks like the Pioneer is the way to go. Btw could be asking too much but I would love to see it go head to head with the upcoming Denon BD Universal flagship player when it released. Gives us an idea it its really worth it money.

Thanks again!

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post #146 of 8624 Old 01-25-2009, 06:37 PM - Thread Starter
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I would love to do another one when the new Denon hits. I would narrow it down and just make it the big 4... Or maybe 5 if I can include the new Oppo...

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post #147 of 8624 Old 01-25-2009, 06:42 PM
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Thanks for all your time and effort. You gave an excellent review,and one of the reasons this forum is such a good source of useful information.

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post #148 of 8624 Old 01-25-2009, 06:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joerod View Post

I would love to do another one when the new Denon hits. I would narrow it down and just make it the big 4... Or maybe 5 if I can include the new Oppo...

Even better

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post #149 of 8624 Old 01-25-2009, 06:45 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks Clark, Franin and progprog for your kind words. I am going to bed now. This is a record!

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Thanks so much for the review, Joerod. Your opinion of the analog sound for the Pioneer vs. the others is quite plausible and makes sense. The one thing this review shows is that you do not need a pre/pro or receiver that plays sound over HDMI to get the new surround codecs. You only need one with analog pass through. While I own the S5000 as well as a CRT Pioneer Elite Pro 720, if I had to buy all over again, it would be the Pioneer '09. But, I am satisfied with the Sony so that won't happen unless I buy a 50" Pioneer Elite Pro111FD for the bed room. Anyway, my advice to the rest is if you have a Sony LCD, buy the Sony, if you have a Pioneer plama, buy the Pioneer. I would not buy the Denon.
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