The Pioneer Elite BDP-09FD Owner's Thread... - Page 54 - AVS Forum
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post #1591 of 8622 Old 02-23-2009, 03:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sillysally View Post

What does WADR mean?

With All Due Respect.....

Quote:
I am sorry but you are missing my point.

No, I'm not missing your point. You feel that these power cables are a beneficial upgrade to your system. I get that.

But....WADR (), I think you've missed my point, or do not understand the purpose of double-blind tests. I'm simply pointing out that in any area so open to subjectivity as power cables, properly-designed and conducted blind tests can provide much more useful information than any one person's experience or opinion. It has absolutely nothing to do with you personally, your setup, or your posting history.
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post #1592 of 8622 Old 02-23-2009, 06:55 AM
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Originally Posted by prepress View Post

I'll have to check to see if there are any region 2 discs. I haven't knowingly bought any.

I get crushed whites/light colors with video-based DVDs; outputting progressive scan solves this for film, but not for video. For example, Rick Wakeman's keyboards in a Yes DVD are solid white with a slight halo, unless there's a closeup. I wondered if a new player with better processing would solve such issues; hence, my research.

The LX91's scaling does exhibit haloing that may/may not be an issue with real word material depending on screen size, viewing distance etc. One thing I did notice is that it does "enhance" halos that are already part of the encoding and which can make them more noticeable. Here's a couple of photo's (excuse the quality) showing a DVD pattern upscaled by the lx91 (professional mode) and the same pattern scaled outside the player for comparision.

D
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post #1593 of 8622 Old 02-23-2009, 09:26 AM
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While I am no electrician I am ASE certified in electrical systems.
ASE= automotive service excellence

Yes we are talking about 120V alternating current I know my education is based around 12V direct current.

Anyone with even a little bit of education in any kind of electrical systems would know that changing out an electrical cord could not possibly do anything to the sound in an audio system.

Reading your guys talk on this subject has really made me take a step back and look at myself to make sure I have not slipped into the deep end since I have been spending alot of time here at AVS recently.

I will not say anymore on this , I am just gonna do my best to not read any more posts discussing power cords.
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post #1594 of 8622 Old 02-23-2009, 09:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by progprog View Post

With All Due Respect.....

No, I'm not missing your point. You feel that these power cables are a beneficial upgrade to your system. I get that.

But....WADR (), I think you've missed my point, or do not understand the purpose of double-blind tests. I'm simply pointing out that in any area so open to subjectivity as power cables, properly-designed and conducted blind tests can provide much more useful information than any one person's experience or opinion. It has absolutely nothing to do with you personally, your setup, or your posting history.

I think SillySally made it clear he understood exactly what you were saying. And he made his point. As have you. Both opinions are now logged in as official AVS court documents. The jury can decide.
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post #1595 of 8622 Old 02-23-2009, 10:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dazzerxxx View Post

The LX91's scaling does exhibit haloing that may/may not be an issue with real word material depending on screen size, viewing distance etc. One thing I did notice is that it does "enhance" halos that are already part of the encoding and which can make them more noticeable. Here's a couple of photo's (excuse the quality) showing a DVD pattern upscaled by the lx91 (professional mode) and the same pattern scaled outside the player for comparision.

D

#2 is outside the player, correct? It does look worse than #1. These crushed whites/light colors are annoying to me; I've noticed similar things coming from my cable box; even my EDGE processor can't save it. And it's also evident in a Samsung 1080PD feeding the TV (PRO-111) directly.

I'd hate to think it's the TV; it must be either the source material or the players. All the more important to get somewhere I can put a DVD (probably the Yes DVD mentioned earlier) into a player and see what happens. This could go a long way toward determining which player (if any) I get and advance my research significantly.


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post #1596 of 8622 Old 02-23-2009, 11:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dazzerxxx View Post

Here's a couple of photo's (excuse the quality) showing a DVD pattern upscaled by the lx91 (professional mode) and the same pattern scaled outside the player for comparision

interesting. What software are you using for test patterns?
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post #1597 of 8622 Old 02-23-2009, 11:44 AM
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Originally Posted by sillysally View Post

Well you can do all the double blind testing you want. However if you are going the route that I and others are, its for a reason. That reason is because we have a very good eye for what to look for and what is important to us, how to improve upon what we are seeing.

A double blind test means nothing to me. Plus the fact that when you get into the detail as some of us have, then you must view more than one or two source materials for a short time.

Yes I guess double blind test is ok to go with when you have folks that are not as critical as some of us that have developed a understanding of how to improve on what we want and were to look.

Double-blind testing was invented to remove psychological bias. Without it, you can convince yourself of anything.
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post #1598 of 8622 Old 02-23-2009, 12:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by par4 View Post

I think SillySally made it clear he understood exactly what you were saying. And he made his point. As have you. Both opinions are now logged in as official AVS court documents. The jury can decide.

Indeed! Let's move on and leave that topic to its own threads.
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post #1599 of 8622 Old 02-23-2009, 12:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WestCoastD View Post

interesting. What software are you using for test patterns?

From memory it's the Finzel test DVD but there are similar patterns are on Avia, Getgray etc.

D
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post #1600 of 8622 Old 02-23-2009, 12:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by prepress View Post

#2 is outside the player, correct? It does look worse than #1. These crushed whites/light colors are annoying to me; I've noticed similar things coming from my cable box; even my EDGE processor can't save it. And it's also evident in a Samsung 1080PD feeding the TV (PRO-111) directly.

I'd hate to think it's the TV; it must be either the source material or the players. All the more important to get somewhere I can put a DVD (probably the Yes DVD mentioned earlier) into a player and see what happens. This could go a long way toward determining which player (if any) I get and advance my research significantly.

No #2 (with halos) is using the LX91 to upscale. It appear to be a by product of the scaling algorithms used to create the illusion of sharpness/detail.

Not sure if you have access but there's discussion on the Edge beta forum re ABT's scaling engine and halo artefacts.

D
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post #1601 of 8622 Old 02-23-2009, 12:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by James W. Johnson View Post

While I am no electrician I am ASE certified in electrical systems.
ASE= automotive service excellence

Yes we are talking about 120V alternating current I know my education is based around 12V direct current.

Anyone with even a little bit of education in any kind of electrical systems would know that changing out an electrical cord could not possibly do anything to the sound in an audio system.

Reading your guys talk on this subject has really made me take a step back and look at myself to make sure I have not slipped into the deep end since I have been spending alot of time here at AVS recently.

I will not say anymore on this , I am just gonna do my best to not read any more posts discussing power cords.


James, it is painful to read posts declaring absolutes like this. Go into your local high-end specialty audio retailer and ask them for a power cord demo in an audio system. Don't analyze the science of it, just do it and judge for yourself. A power cord carries signal just as an audio interconnect and speaker cable do. Why wouldn't a cable with thicker shielding, more conducting material, and in the case of a Transparent Audio power cord, a passive filter network limiting RF noise in line of the cable and the resultant lower noise NOT make a difference?

Again, I realize the tendency at this point is to call me a snake oil salesmen and tell me I'm just hearing what I want to hear. Try and resist that and just go do the demo. Make sure the dealer is going from the component's stock power cord to a high-end power cord from one of the big players in aftermarket cords. Have them do it with the source (a CD player) first.

If, after doing this, you don't feel you heard a difference, that's good news for you as it is not money you will need to spend to improve your system. If you do hear it, then there's something to improving upon the stock cords that come with a component. And if you refuse to do the demo and hold to your prejudice, ignorance as they say is bliss.
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post #1602 of 8622 Old 02-23-2009, 12:39 PM
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Originally Posted by sillysally View Post

Well there is no question in my mind that there is really something that does change when you upgrade your power cord on the BD-09.

Right now I have Enhancer Mode: 1 set in my ISF settings and I think I will have to back that off to Enhancer Mode: 2. That's how sharp the picture is on my 141. I will try that just to see how things look. I may have to recalibrate my 141 because of the changes in the PQ.
Please don't misunderstand, the changes are for the better. Matter of fact I have ordered two more power cords. I will be using the two new power cords for my sig 141 and my MK IV SE tube headphone amp.

Good for you sillysally. I too am a big believer that good power cords make a substantial difference. I have several Transparent Audio Reference Power Links in my system and it is very, very obvious what improvements they bring to the table.
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post #1603 of 8622 Old 02-23-2009, 01:04 PM
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Here's a great forum area for power cable opinions discussions, and arguments.
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post #1604 of 8622 Old 02-23-2009, 02:43 PM
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Here are a bunch of replies rolled into one. Just picked my 09 up Sat. Listenup where I purchased the player had Pioneer guests from Japan which included sales and engineers. They have no plans on droping blu ray or their Elite audio equipment. They also have decided sacd and dvd-a is pretty much dead. Again being killed by Sony's rediculous licensing fees as one of the sales persons working for Listenup informed me. He used to work for Mark Levinson. Pioneer is definitely entertaining the next format in music, BD.

As for LD I used to have one also. My experience from watching the Abyss. In the fire scene the fire sounded so real it was unbelievable. Watching it again on dvd there has been no comparison. LD beat out dvd in audio. I will have to see if the movie is available on BD to see how the same scene sounds.

Set up my 09 and watched a scene from Screamers where the rocks at the beginning of the movie come down behind the guy. BD definitely better by a large margin. The rocks sounded 3 dimensional as if you were actually there hearing it for real. WOW!

Glad there are some of you out there going through all the extensive testing, but for me seeing and hearing is believing. The 09 is for real.
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post #1605 of 8622 Old 02-23-2009, 02:50 PM - Thread Starter
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post #1606 of 8622 Old 02-23-2009, 02:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Wallace View Post

James, it is painful to read posts declaring absolutes like this. Go into your local high-end specialty audio retailer and ask them for a power cord demo in an audio system. Don't analyze the science of it, just do it and judge for yourself. A power cord carries signal just as an audio interconnect and speaker cable do. Why wouldn't a cable with thicker shielding, more conducting material, and in the case of a Transparent Audio power cord, a passive filter network limiting RF noise in line of the cable and the resultant lower noise NOT make a difference?

Again, I realize the tendency at this point is to call me a snake oil salesmen and tell me I'm just hearing what I want to hear. Try and resist that and just go do the demo. Make sure the dealer is going from the component's stock power cord to a high-end power cord from one of the big players in aftermarket cords. Have them do it with the source (a CD player) first.

If, after doing this, you don't feel you heard a difference, that's good news for you as it is not money you will need to spend to improve your system. If you do hear it, then there's something to improving upon the stock cords that come with a component. And if you refuse to do the demo and hold to your prejudice, ignorance as they say is bliss.

The wiring in (at least a typical) wall is unshielded Romex, and the run length of the Romex is a lot farther than the cord. So putting a 3' super-duper cord in series with 20' of unshielded Romex should have no measurable effect.

If the super-duper cord has a filter inline, that's a different story. That might have an effect.
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post #1607 of 8622 Old 02-23-2009, 02:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rudykg View Post

Here are a bunch of replies rolled into one. Just picked my 09 up Sat. Listenup where I purchased the player had Pioneer guests from Japan which included sales and engineers. They have no plans on droping blu ray or their Elite audio equipment. They also have decided sacd and dvd-a is pretty much dead. Again being killed by Sony's rediculous licensing fees as one of the sales persons working for Listenup informed me. He used to work for Mark Levinson. Pioneer is definitely entertaining the next format in music, BD.

As for LD I used to have one also. My experience from watching the Abyss. In the fire scene the fire sounded so real it was unbelievable. Watching it again on dvd there has been no comparison. LD beat out dvd in audio. I will have to see if the movie is available on BD to see how the same scene sounds.

Set up my 09 and watched a scene from Screamers where the rocks at the beginning of the movie come down behind the guy. BD definitely better by a large margin. The rocks sounded 3 dimensional as if you were actually there hearing it for real. WOW!

Glad there are some of you out there going through all the extensive testing, but for me seeing and hearing is believing. The 09 is for real.

I've always been a fan of the LD audio too. If I remember correctly (it's been awhile) the audio was completely uncompressed. I recall the opening of Tombstone, where it's a small "tv like" picture, then the screen opens up and the horses come galloping across the prairie. Wow! I watched it on DVD when it first came out, and just wasn't impressed with the audio as much. The times they are a changin' and BD audio is fantastic. But I digress, congrats on your new 09FD, Rudy. I can't wait until mine arrives. Enjoy!!

Also, thanks for the heads up on Pioneers' commitment to BD and the Elite line.

Growing Older But Not Up
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post #1608 of 8622 Old 02-23-2009, 03:11 PM
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Just playing around with different sound bites. Here is another I just tried out. Apocalypto. Never heard this so clearly before in the opening scene. Although on dvd I was somewhat ingulfed in the jungle with all the birds and all but I never heard this bird flying from my right to my left and squacking so clearly behind me, WOW! I am in the jungle. For now in my setup I am getting better sound using digital out instead on analog. With analog I don't get any options on audio with the current firmware. To get DTS 5.1 I have to set up with digital audio out. All I get with analog is True Dolby 5.1 which does not sound anywhere near as good. Forgot to mention this is off a standard dvd.
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post #1609 of 8622 Old 02-23-2009, 03:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rudykg View Post

Here are a bunch of replies rolled into one. Just picked my 09 up Sat. Listenup where I purchased the player had Pioneer guests from Japan which included sales and engineers. They have no plans on droping blu ray or their Elite audio equipment. They also have decided sacd and dvd-a is pretty much dead. Again being killed by Sony's rediculous licensing fees as one of the sales persons working for Listenup informed me. He used to work for Mark Levinson. Pioneer is definitely entertaining the next format in music, BD.

As for LD I used to have one also. My experience from watching the Abyss. In the fire scene the fire sounded so real it was unbelievable. Watching it again on dvd there has been no comparison. LD beat out dvd in audio. I will have to see if the movie is available on BD to see how the same scene sounds.

Set up my 09 and watched a scene from Screamers where the rocks at the beginning of the movie come down behind the guy. BD definitely better by a large margin. The rocks sounded 3 dimensional as if you were actually there hearing it for real. WOW!

Glad there are some of you out there going through all the extensive testing, but for me seeing and hearing is believing. The 09 is for real.

rudykg,

Congrats and also a very informative Post .

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post #1610 of 8622 Old 02-23-2009, 03:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rudykg View Post

Just playing around with different sound bites. Here is another I just tried out. Apocalypto. Never heard this so clearly before in the opening scene. Although on dvd I was somewhat ingulfed in the jungle with all the birds and all but I never heard this bird flying from my right to my left and squacking so clearly behind me, WOW! I am in the jungle. For now in my setup I am getting better sound using digital out instead on analog. With analog I don't get any options on audio with the current firmware. To get DTS 5.1 I have to set up with digital audio out. All I get with analog is True Dolby 5.1 which does not sound anywhere near as good. Forgot to mention this is off a standard dvd.

Congrats! Sounds like you're loving it! Just to be clear, are you saying that you are only using HDMI digital out? If so, to what receiver/processor?

Thanks for the insights into Pioneer's thinking, too. I think a lot of us are wondering what the heck is going on with them now...so it's helpful to get some "inside dope."
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post #1611 of 8622 Old 02-23-2009, 03:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Waboman View Post

I can't wait until mine arrives. Enjoy!!

What's the ETA? Seems like it's been awhile since you ordered it?
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post #1612 of 8622 Old 02-23-2009, 04:18 PM
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What's the ETA? Seems like it's been awhile since you ordered it?

It only took me 3 days to get mine from Magnolia after I called them on the phone to order it. They were not at that time displaying it or stocking it in the stores, however they said that may be changing since they had sold the 15 they had delivered to their warehouse. Mine is serial# 000145 so production is probably limited...

On another note, talking about umcompressed sound.... Last weekend I watched "Halloween" using the 5.1 uncompressed PCM track and it was outstanding! Since I've gotten the player setup I have spent the last 3 Sat nights watching the "Godfather Trilogy" and the pic and sound from the 09FD blows away anything I have ever seen or heard before in a player!

Unlike many here I don't own a Kuro.. I have a Mits 55" CRT-RP HDTV and I've owned 2 Elite DVD players and a 95FD BD player prior to the 09FD. I am seeing the best pic now on BD and DVD with the 09FD. I also find myself faulting the pic from my Comcast HD box more and more now......
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post #1613 of 8622 Old 02-23-2009, 04:59 PM
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I have some questions about the agenda of that thread & the contradicting poll options.

It's going down for those that love the PS3 and those that spent more on higher end gear.

The ironic thing is there are differences even in mid level players. The Pioneer 51 (so far)...for me at least has produced the very best 1080p24 image I've ever seen. I've had LOTS of BD players too. Night and day difference? No, but noticeable.

The other irony is that when player A does look better then it must be 'altering' the image someway. So when a burger at Chili's taste better than one at McDonalds then dangit, Chilis gave me an inaccurate burger.

Fun stuff.

Guys I would not even waste your time with that thread. As long as you guys are happy with your player and you can see the difference that all that counts.

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post #1614 of 8622 Old 02-23-2009, 05:16 PM
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Thanks for the power cord recommendations. Going to google those you guys listed!

Power cords make a difference to the 09 ?

With miles and miles of power lines to your house how can changing the last few feet make any difference? Im sorry, but this is BS in its purest form.

If a new power cord makes a difference then the one supplied is defective.
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post #1615 of 8622 Old 02-23-2009, 05:23 PM
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Guys I would not even waste your time with that thread. As long as you guys are happy with your player and you can see the difference that all that counts.

I don know about that. The debate is about science, and this is AVS. This forum i meant for just that type of discussion. Its a healthy debate and I really dont understand why owners here wouldnt partake. I mean if that thread was saying there is no difference between BD and DVD im sure all here would be involved.

Why avoid the debate?

The 09 looks great (and there is value in that), is built great (there is value in that too) someone posted it has copper screws, well great and thats got to add what $20 bucks to it tops?

When it comes to improving the the 1080p 24 source or the lossless audio via a digital connection I am really interested to know the differences. I will buy the 09 if it infact performs better. Its not a thread fueled by people who spend less on HT and are looking for reason to justify savings. I have never been about saving or cutting corners in my HT and a 2k player would be no issue....if it acted better then a $500 player as a digital transport.
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post #1616 of 8622 Old 02-23-2009, 05:34 PM
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Its not a thread fueled by people who spend less on HT and are looking for reason to justify savings. I have never been about saving or cutting corners in my HT and a 2k player would be no issue....if it acted better then a $500 player as a digital transport.


Quote:


Everything you say is 100% correct. The problem is that someone often starts out with the above logic but winds up at a point in the road where they start making inaccurate claims about performance in an effort to justify their expenditure.

Well when I replied to this quote saying that there is an opposite to this by saying there are people out there who can't afford the player and they need to justify that buying a cheap player is just as good, well I seemed to have touch a nerve.

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post #1617 of 8622 Old 02-23-2009, 05:39 PM
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well I for one will be using the player at 1080I , there are alot of users that are not running 1080p 24. but if jorod says he sees a differance in the players then I will believe him , not the guy that hasent even had the ba..s to buy one and hook it up .
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post #1618 of 8622 Old 02-23-2009, 05:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Franin View Post

Well when I replied to this quote saying that there is an opposite to this by saying there are people out there who can't afford the player and they need to justify that buying a cheap player is just as good, well I seemed to have touch a nerve.

could be...I wouldnt make a comment like that personally. To me the debate is not about what people want to see...be it the people who cant afford more so say it performs better or be it the people who can pay more and therefor argue it is better.

To me the question is if it can be different then it can be measured, so what are the measurements? What are the tests and the results?
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post #1619 of 8622 Old 02-23-2009, 05:54 PM
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I've always been a fan of the LD audio too. If I remember correctly (it's been awhile) the audio was completely uncompressed. I recall the opening of Tombstone, where it's a small "tv like" picture, then the screen opens up and the horses come galloping across the prairie. Wow! I watched it on DVD when it first came out, and just wasn't impressed with the audio as much.:

LD audio could be good but often wasn't: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laserdisc#Audio.
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post #1620 of 8622 Old 02-23-2009, 06:00 PM - Thread Starter
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