The Pioneer Elite BDP-09FD Owner's Thread... - Page 6 - AVS Forum
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post #151 of 8617 Old 01-25-2009, 06:47 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks gbaby!

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post #152 of 8617 Old 01-25-2009, 06:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joerod View Post

I would love to do another one when the new Denon hits. I would narrow it down and just make it the big 4... Or maybe 5 if I can include the new Oppo...

When I mentioned the OPPO 83 and these players, someone always says it not in the price range to compare. I guess you don't think so. Great review
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post #153 of 8617 Old 01-25-2009, 06:51 PM - Thread Starter
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It will deserve a shot. I am certain it could be a strong force in the middle pack. As for now the 09FD is my reference player. Goodnight...

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post #154 of 8617 Old 01-25-2009, 06:54 PM
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Originally Posted by dogone
"Joerod...Is the 09 plagued with the same 3 to 4 second layer change issue that the 05/51 has?"

Yes this is a biggy... anyone, anyone... maybe when joe wakes up.
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post #155 of 8617 Old 01-25-2009, 06:54 PM
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Originally Posted by joerod View Post

Thanks gbaby!

You are welcome. You deserve much praise as you have made a revelation regarding the sound of these units through their analog outputs.
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post #156 of 8617 Old 01-25-2009, 06:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joerod View Post

The analog sound was exceptional going into my 886 PRO.

Joe, to get the most out of the DACs & analog stage in the 09FD you should consider a Parasound Model 2100 preamp for 2ch CD playback w/ the 09FD:
http://parasound.com/nc/2100.php

The 886 PRO takes its 2ch inputs, does an A>D and then a D>A on them. Using the Parasound transparently in bypass mode, you can feed it pure analog then turn it off and the 886 PRO will takeover again for digital sources.

Vote with your wallet. Don't buy Cinavia-infected Blu-ray Discs! Why pay a premium for pseudo-lossless audio damaged by an intrusive watermark in the audible spectrum?
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post #157 of 8617 Old 01-25-2009, 07:05 PM
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Thanks, Joerod for all your time watching & posting. You've done a great service to us all on the sidelines. I'll have to read your Part 2 in depth tomorrow, but I got the gist that 09 is tops on PQ.

Do u have a 51 or 05 still around to compare it to?

ss9001

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post #158 of 8617 Old 01-25-2009, 07:06 PM
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Hi joerod

Here in the UK the LX91 has a few issues playing some Blu-ray discs,i have The Mummy box set,with disc 1 when Arabic is spoken,the English subtitles do not work.If i try to select normal subtitles the LX91 locks up and the only way fix it is to unplug it from the mains.

This problem has been confirmed with other UK forum members.


MXM
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post #159 of 8617 Old 01-25-2009, 07:09 PM - Thread Starter
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Something just dawned on me and then I read the post (great minds think ...ozziep). Layer change! It is only 1 to 2 seconds with the latest firmware (09FD). Not bad at all. I am sure that could improve still in the future with another update or two. No worries there. You will easily forgive it when you see the SD dvd pic Q! And yes, ss9001 I compared it to my 51FD. And Ruined I will look into that.

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post #160 of 8617 Old 01-25-2009, 07:13 PM - Thread Starter
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MXM, I have those movies on Blu ray. I will check it out in the morning. Everything is off for the night. As am I now (for sure this time)...

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post #161 of 8617 Old 01-25-2009, 07:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruined View Post

Joe, to get the most out of the DACs & analog stage in the 09FD you should consider a Parasound Model 2100 preamp for 2ch CD playback w/ the 09FD:
http://parasound.com/nc/2100.php

The 886 PRO takes its 2ch inputs, does an A>D and then a D>A on them. Using the Parasound transparently in bypass mode, you can feed it pure analog then turn it off and the 886 PRO will takeover again for digital sources.

If it is true the 886 does not have analog pass through then this means the analog outputs of the three tested players have the potential of sounding even better. No wonder my S5000ES sounds so good playing through the analog pass through of my Arcam AV9.
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post #162 of 8617 Old 01-25-2009, 07:32 PM
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Since the 09 uses the Marvell Qdeo and so did the LG BH200, how much better is the picture quality on SD and Blu Ray on the 09 compared to the LG? Thanks in advance for your response.
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post #163 of 8617 Old 01-25-2009, 07:42 PM
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I believe the qvideo chip in the 09 is mostly pioneer customized, not available as an off-the-shelf chip to others. Pioneer likes to do this kind of thing.

You guys in the US are really fortunate to have the 09 at such great price. It's 2x of the Sony almost everywhere else. To me the Pio is one class above the Sony/Denon. The only real competitor is the new Denon.
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post #164 of 8617 Old 01-25-2009, 07:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joerod View Post

I would love to do another one when the new Denon hits. I would narrow it down and just make it the big 4... Or maybe 5 if I can include the new Oppo...

great write up joe, as a 5000es owner am not in the least offended. I'm ok with it being yesterdays hero always of the understanding there is always better out there. especially given the march of progress. Its a good thing to keep the manufactuers on their toes. I imagine as you head to the top its a case of diminishing returns as well. making the choice harder or easier. In oz the new pio is to sell at $4.5k vs the $2k for the sony makign the choice a little bit easier !

I too would appreciate a comparison with the big daddy denon, it will be a proper new denon completely ground up so should be very interesting to see how goes vs the other leaders of the pack.

I much more value posts and end user reviews of the likes of yourself. especially given the effort you go through keep it up !

"Technology is a drug. We can't get enough of it."


Welcome to my lounge room :)
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post #165 of 8617 Old 01-25-2009, 08:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WestCoastD View Post

as much as I would love to have SACD/DVD-A integrated into a "Super BD" player like the BDP-09FD it's probably best that it isn't. I believe it add's additional complexity to the laser/optical mechanics as well as related firmware,.

It's not just that--SACD uses DSD, which is unlike anything else, and it can't be done properly in software. It needs special chips (or really really fast FPGAs). So it's not something that can be bolted into a player by writing some code--it has to be included in the hardware.

That's why I think SACD is going to die, which is sad because it sounds really good. What will happen instead is that profile 3.0 (audio-only) Blu-ray will take over to fill SACD's niche, and let's hope it does a good job of it.

I'll keep my reference SACD player and continue playing outstanding recordings on it, but it will become a curiosity to show guests, like bringing out the vinyl.
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post #166 of 8617 Old 01-25-2009, 08:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruined View Post

Joe, to get the most out of the DACs & analog stage in the 09FD you should consider a Parasound Model 2100 preamp for 2ch CD playback w/ the 09FD:
http://parasound.com/nc/2100.php

The 886 PRO takes its 2ch inputs, does an A>D and then a D>A on them. Using the Parasound transparently in bypass mode, you can feed it pure analog then turn it off and the 886 PRO will takeover again for digital sources.

You can do better than that. Parasound also makes a 7.1 pure-analog preamp: http://www.parasound.com/halo/p7.php. Combine that with a Zektor if you need more sources, and you're all set--you can do all your decoding on the player, even for surround.

It's basically eight straight wires with gain. Very clean design.
LL
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post #167 of 8617 Old 01-25-2009, 08:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ss9001 View Post

Robert,
Is this an enhancement of the "deep color trick" in the 05/51 or the same as what's in the 05?

Bit OT, but...
I hope you're right on BD Audio. We need something to eventually "replace" SACD/DVDA. There is still a lot of potential for outstanding multichannel music, recordings that were either already done but never released or "on the books". Things like Pink Floyd Wish You Were Here, the rest of the Steely Dan catalog, upcoming King Crimson, old quad recordings that never made it, let alone pristine renditions of classical & jazz. Just like my 59AVI, someone will have to pry my SACD's & DVD-A's out of my dead hands. IMO, they are that much better than normal CD's.

BTW- I bought my 1st music-only BD, named Divertimenti, some post-classical pieces done in 5.1. Blu-ray case with the BD on 1 side and a hybrid SACD on the other. I didn't get around to listening this weekend, but am looking forward to the comparing the 2 discs.

ss9001

Hi ss9001,

The Deep Color Circuit in the BDP-09FD is quite different than the one in the 05/51. For those models we upconvert to 36-bit at the HDMI output using the HDMI Transmitter chip..

For the BDP-09FD, the video is converted to 48-bit right after being read off of the disc using a Pioneer Developed chipset (FPGA)... Pixels from each video frame are compared with the following frame and if similar colors are found we interpolate the missing color information... This is a Pioneer unique circuit..

Also, all of the video processing is done at 48-bits (We use both inputs on the QDEO processor to achieve this)....

And of course the QDEO does all of the scaling and de-interlacing...

We also use a dedicated power supply for the Video boards...

As well, the Drive unit is a BD-Recorder which has much stricter tolerances than just a player...

Chris
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post #168 of 8617 Old 01-25-2009, 09:37 PM
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joerod, you're making my upgraditus flair up. The wife might not be able to tame this outbreak.

Growing Older But Not Up
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post #169 of 8617 Old 01-25-2009, 09:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sk20 View Post

[...] zonefree [...] I just hope it can be modified.

The 'modifying masters' just updated their website and, YES, the new Pioneers are now on their list of region-free (DVD) and zone-free (BD) players:
http://www.bluraymods.com/ourproduct...yer.asp?id=214
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post #170 of 8617 Old 01-25-2009, 09:54 PM
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Good job joerod! Well done. Get some rest!
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post #171 of 8617 Old 01-25-2009, 11:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sk20 View Post

SACD uses DSD, which is unlike anything else, and it can't be done properly in software. It has to be included in the hardware

exactly. Although it's not un-common for universal players (ie, Denon, Pioneer, Yamaha, etc.,...) to exhibit laser/optical assembly failure reading the SACD layer on hybrid disc's.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sk20 View Post

That's why I think SACD is going to die, which is sad because it sounds really good. What will happen instead is that profile 3.0 (audio-only) Blu-ray will take over to fill SACD's niche, and let's hope it does a good job of it

I'm very optimistic about "BD Audio".

Quote:
Originally Posted by sk20 View Post

I'll keep my reference SACD player and continue playing outstanding recordings on it

me too
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post #172 of 8617 Old 01-26-2009, 12:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Walkamo View Post


Chris

Hi Chris,

As i'm using a Lexicon MC12 with only 5.1 analog in, what will happen when i'll get a 7.1 channel track converted to analog with the 09FD ?
Using 5.1 out of the Pioneer, will i get a strict 5.1 mix or some kind of a "5.1 EX" mix ?
I'm doing A/D/A with my Lex (at 192/24) and get everything out in 7.1 at the end...

Thanks by advance for your answer...
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post #173 of 8617 Old 01-26-2009, 01:24 AM
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Joe, you mention comparing the players with all "adjustments" switched off. I presume you also compared them with all their best adjustments enabled (e.g. Reality Enhancer etc)?

I am not the least bit surprised by the analog audio outcome. In fact I predicted this earlier in the thread saying it would come down to personal taste and that none of them would be significantly better/worse than the other.

In the UK, the Sony sells for almost 1000 US dollars less than the Pioneer. I think there is no doubt that based on the feedback so far, it is something of a bargain!

I have the Sony. Would I have changed my mind? Not considering the price difference, although I would have been much more tempted to spend the extra after Pioneer proved that they can get the firmware for DTS-HD MA and BD Live working!
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post #174 of 8617 Old 01-26-2009, 01:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MORGAND View Post

Hi Chris,

As i'm using a Lexicon MC12 with only 5.1 analog in, what will happen when i'll get a 7.1 channel track converted to analog with the 09FD ?
Using 5.1 out of the Pioneer, will i get a strict 5.1 mix or some kind of a "5.1 EX" mix ?
I'm doing A/D/A with my Lex (at 192/24) and get everything out in 7.1 at the end...

Thanks by advance for your answer...

My understanding, is that rears should be downmixed into the sides (or vice versa). But this behaviour has not been conclusively proven from all the searches I have done. But that is my understanding of what "should" happen. The downmix would not be a clever EX type encoding..but Logic 7 will be able to do a good job with it.

Actually the Lex is 96/24 on the A/D and 192/24 on the D/A but you won't notice the difference
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post #175 of 8617 Old 01-26-2009, 03:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Walkamo View Post

Hi ss9001,

The Deep Color Circuit in the BDP-09FD is quite different than the one in the 05/51. For those models we upconvert to 36-bit at the HDMI output using the HDMI Transmitter chip..

For the BDP-09FD, the video is converted to 48-bit right after being read off of the disc using a Pioneer Developed chipset (FPGA)... Pixels from each video frame are compared with the following frame and if similar colors are found we interpolate the missing color information... This is a Pioneer unique circuit..

Also, all of the video processing is done at 48-bits (We use both inputs on the QDEO processor to achieve this)....

And of course the QDEO does all of the scaling and de-interlacing...

We also use a dedicated power supply for the Video boards...

As well, the Drive unit is a BD-Recorder which has much stricter tolerances than just a player...

Chris

Chris has finally answered a question many of us have had for some time. The 09 uses a different drive unit than the 05/51! Thanks Chris.

Stan
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post #176 of 8617 Old 01-26-2009, 03:41 AM
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joerod,

Please take the day off for all of your hard work. I appreciate your input and time and effort. Yours is not an easy chore. Some would not call it a chore at all, but with so many players and so many things to check out properly, after several days, everything becomes a chore of sorts.

And now your middle name has been changed again: from sony to elite!

Thx again joeliterod

Stan
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post #177 of 8617 Old 01-26-2009, 04:08 AM
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I think I already know the answer to this but I'll ask anyway...

Does the 09 have DTS-HD MA Essential decoding or decoding of the full complement of DTS? In other words, will the 09 also decode DTS 96/24, DTS-ES 6.1 (both discrete and matrix), etc?

It seems most players these days are of the "Essential" variety. Although I can certainly understand dropping of legacy codecs that were rarely used, there is still quite a bit of content that uses DTS-ES (Lord of the Rings Extended Editions) and DTS 96/24 (DVD-A discs like Blue Man Group "The Complex" from DTS Entertainment had these).

On the Dolby side, I'd imagine support for DD EX was dropped too?

I know the problem is solved once you bitstream but people w/o HDMI 1.1+ receivers/prepros will probably balk at needing to toggle inputs or possibly adjusting audio in the player so that the right connection gets priority instead of a stereo downmix.

Pioneer broke my heart.
Denon broke my wallet.
Oppo broke my thinking.
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post #178 of 8617 Old 01-26-2009, 04:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Walkamo View Post

Hi ss9001,

The Deep Color Circuit in the BDP-09FD is quite different than the one in the 05/51. For those models we upconvert to 36-bit at the HDMI output using the HDMI Transmitter chip..Chris

Thank you, Chris, for the explanation. "Looks" very promising! I just may have to "forgive" Pioneer for leaving out the SACD & ILink

Also, glad you confirmed the drive is different. That may be a big help on reducing playback issues. All-in-all, this thread may entice me to upgrade-itis. My wife will be groaning, since I told her the BDP-05 will be "it" for awhile

But a 151 Kuro purchase stills come 1st this yr...

ss9001

Steve
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post #179 of 8617 Old 01-26-2009, 04:52 AM
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I think im going to call Robert up at value electronics and buy one of these! This unit sounds promising. Im currently using a PS3 for my 141 panel and i want better bluray playback. Im thinking that the 48bit upconvert is the way to go since we wont see deep color on disks for a long time i bet. I just have two questions.

To enable the 48bit does video have to go out one of the hdmi outputs and bitstream hd audio codecs out the other?

Joerod , to enable 48bit does the output need to be RGB? can u post what settings u have on the player set to. Just the video settings are important to me.

Thanx Chris

- Independent Dreams - IDStudios
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post #180 of 8617 Old 01-26-2009, 05:01 AM
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What displays currently support 48-bit?

I think the Kuros are "only" 36-bit.
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