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post #181 of 8617 Old 01-26-2009, 05:02 AM - Thread Starter
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I will post my video settings soon. I had it in 4:4:4 even though it also looked great in RGB to. I want to break it in a little more and tweak it to its most optimal setting.

Thanks again to everyone for their kind words. This is a record. Not one single hate PM!

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post #182 of 8617 Old 01-26-2009, 05:11 AM
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Originally Posted by JonStatt View Post

My understanding, is that rears should be downmixed into the sides (or vice versa). But this behaviour has not been conclusively proven from all the searches I have done. But that is my understanding of what "should" happen. The downmix would not be a clever EX type encoding..but Logic 7 will be able to do a good job with it.

Yeah, "should" that is my problem... i want a clear statement from Pioneer...
I've been asking Chris many times about this one... and still no answer.
So i believe no answer means... not good for us, probably not doing the downmix thing !

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Actually the Lex is 96/24 on the A/D and 192/24 on the D/A but you won't notice the difference

I know, just tried to be short on this one
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post #183 of 8617 Old 01-26-2009, 05:34 AM
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Awesome comparison, I am really glad I ordered this player. I have a couple of questions if you have time. Did you use the pure audio option 1 with bit stream? Also, as far as picture adjustments, did you set the player to adjust the sharpness and filter out other video noise for your comparison and if so, what were those settings? Thanks for any help you can provide in advance.
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post #184 of 8617 Old 01-26-2009, 05:39 AM
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Originally Posted by JonStatt View Post

What displays currently support 48-bit?

I think the Kuros are "only" 36-bit.



isnt any panel that supports deep color hdmi 1.3 able to utilize this key upconvert feature?

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post #185 of 8617 Old 01-26-2009, 05:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joerod View Post

I will post my video settings soon. I had it in 4:4:4 even though it also looked great in RGB to. I want to break it in a little more and tweak it to its most optimal setting.

Thanks again to everyone for their kind words. This is a record. Not one single hate PM!



Why should anyone hate you bro!!! if they do its cause they are JEALOUS!!! Keep up the good work , u have alot of money invested in bluray players. Thank you for ur truthful input on them and helping me and others make a better decision for our bluray wants.

- Independent Dreams - IDStudios
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post #186 of 8617 Old 01-26-2009, 06:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by baddgsx View Post

isnt any panel that supports deep color hdmi 1.3 able to utilize this key upconvert feature?

Yes..but not at the full 48-bit (16-bit per channel)

The Sony doesn't do 48-bit. But the Super bit mapping function is designed to give 14-bit processing and still give improvements on an 8-bit non-deep color display. I believe it uses advanced dithering techniques to accomplish this.

I was just curious, however, if any displays utilised the full 48-bit capability of deep colour.
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post #187 of 8617 Old 01-26-2009, 06:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JonStatt View Post

Yes..but not at the full 48-bit (16-bit per channel)

The Sony doesn't do 48-bit. But the Super bit mapping function is designed to give 14-bit processing and still give improvements on an 8-bit non-deep color display. I believe it uses advanced dithering techniques to accomplish this.

I was just curious, however, if any displays utilised the full 48-bit capability of deep colour.


I dont see why pioneer would make their best panel not support that feature. that just doesnt make sense.

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post #188 of 8617 Old 01-26-2009, 07:36 AM
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Nothwithstanding the outcome of the shootout with the Pioneer '09, the Sony 5000, and the Denon 3800, I still give the Sony the edge because it plays DTS-MA out the box without a firmware upgrade, plays BD Live, and has a 5 years warranty, more than double the others.
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post #189 of 8617 Old 01-26-2009, 07:50 AM
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Ditto... Since most who would spend for a Sony / Pioneer 09 / Denon 3800 will likely bitstream/ LPCM the Hi Res lossless codecs and view at 1080P24 via HDMI... I think, other than warranty, reliability, and out of the box functionality, there is little else of significance to want in an 'uber-player'.

Since analog is gone, the need for better conversions and more expensive parts / design is really sort of over.

At 1080P24 output and DTS MA / TRUE HD bitstreamed (or decoded to LPCM), the player is essentially lifting the digital tracks off the disc and simply passing them on without any post processing whatsoever. The players are essentially conduits that take the digital source to the receiver for post processing and D/A conversion ... so, who needs all the excess when it comes to Blu Ray discs?

Now for DVD, there are improvements that are more tangible for upconversion, but most upconverting engines these days to a competent job as would be seen on the typical 60" or smaller plasma /LCD.

Now if you want SACD, DVD-A.. then there is more significance to these pieces. But for Blu Ray and DVD, I see little need to spend $2K or more..

There are more than a handful of [op amps] that sound so good that most designers want to be using them as opposed to discreet transistors. Dave Reich, Theta 2009
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post #190 of 8617 Old 01-26-2009, 08:25 AM
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MXM, I have those movies on Blu ray. I will check it out in the morning. Everything is off for the night. As am I now (for sure this time)...

Thank you

MXM
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post #191 of 8617 Old 01-26-2009, 08:33 AM
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if you LPCM the sound to your reciever? Or are the audio capabilities only for the analog out? I plan to either bitstream pure audio via one HDMI cable to my SC05 Pio Elite reciever or LPCM, which ever sounds best. Joerod, did you test bitstream vs. LPCM by chance?
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post #192 of 8617 Old 01-26-2009, 09:11 AM
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wooohooooo , ordered mine from Rob at Value electronics. That guy is the man!!!!!

I should have it next week. Ill through my 2 cents in about it connected to my 141.


I dread running another hdmi cable through the wall , uuughhhh

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post #193 of 8617 Old 01-26-2009, 09:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eastor View Post

if you LPCM the sound to your reciever? Or are the audio capabilities only for the analog out? I plan to either bitstream pure audio via one HDMI cable to my SC05 Pio Elite reciever or LPCM, which ever sounds best. Joerod, did you test bitstream vs. LPCM by chance?

Theoretically, there should be zero difference.. However some have reported higher volume levels with LPCM vs bitstreaming... And Cary Cinema 11A processor owners, who can either bitstream or LPCM, have reported bitstreaming sounding somewhat compressed... Possibly due to software issues.. As long as you provide HDMI audio to your receiver / pre pro, you have a choice of either.

There are more than a handful of [op amps] that sound so good that most designers want to be using them as opposed to discreet transistors. Dave Reich, Theta 2009
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post #194 of 8617 Old 01-26-2009, 12:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thebland View Post

Ditto... Since most who would spend for a Sony / Pioneer 09 / Denon 3800 will likely bitstream/ LPCM the Hi Res lossless codecs and view at 1080P24 via HDMI... I think, other than warranty, reliability, and out of the box functionality, there is little else of significance to want in an 'uber-player'.

Since analog is gone, the need for better conversions and more expensive parts / design is really sort of over.

At 1080P24 output and DTS MA / TRUE HD bitstreamed (or decoded to LPCM), the player is essentially lifting the digital tracks off the disc and simply passing them on without any post processing whatsoever. The players are essentially conduits that take the digital source to the receiver for post processing and D/A conversion ... so, who needs all the excess when it comes to Blu Ray discs?

Now for DVD, there are improvements that are more tangible for upconversion, but most upconverting engines these days to a competent job as would be seen on the typical 60" or smaller plasma /LCD.

Now if you want SACD, DVD-A.. then there is more significance to these pieces. But for Blu Ray and DVD, I see little need to spend $2K or more..

Just to update from an earlier post. At 1080p/60 with the "pure cinema" setting at either 'on' or 'off', with standard def DVD there is terrible combing. At 'auto1' or auto2', it looks great.

As for the post I'm replying to, I would say that while there is merit to feeling like you're overpaying for the player if you don't use the analog outputs, which they clearly put effort into, I would not agree that it means the player isn't worth a premium. Via HDMI, I compared the audio from the 09 to the 05 and it was significant in favor of the 09. The video quality was also noticeably better, though it was at first subtle. But like many things, what at first is subtle becomes a difference you can't live without! Such is the case with the improvement wrought by the 09.
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post #195 of 8617 Old 01-26-2009, 12:45 PM
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did you use the pure audio, option 1 with only audio streaming through the HDMI or did you have both video and audio through one cable via HDMI? Thanks in advance.
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post #196 of 8617 Old 01-26-2009, 12:46 PM - Thread Starter
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I have to agree with Scott. I also notice an improvement for both Audio and Video over HDMI and I think it has a lot to do with them being separate. I am heading down there now to do more testing (plus The Mummy movies)...

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post #197 of 8617 Old 01-26-2009, 12:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Wallace View Post

Just to update from an earlier post. At 1080p/60 with the "pure cinema" setting at either 'on' or 'off', with standard def DVD there is terrible combing. At 'auto1' or auto2', it looks great.

As for the post I'm replying to, I would say that while there is merit to feeling like you're overpaying for the player if you don't use the analog outputs, which they clearly put effort into, I would not agree that it means the player isn't worth a premium. Via HDMI, I compared the audio from the 09 to the 05 and it was significant in favor of the 09. The video quality was also noticeably better, though it was at first subtle. But like many things, what at first is subtle becomes a difference you can't live without! Such is the case with the improvement wrought by the 09.

Hard to say why video looked different (if you are using 1080P24 straight from the disc)... and really hard to say why the audio is so improved, too (if using HDMI audio).. Build quality is certainly an important factor.. I'm with you that not using analogs makes the player insignificant.. There are other intangibles (and tangibles) that come with a well-built, well designed player.

There are more than a handful of [op amps] that sound so good that most designers want to be using them as opposed to discreet transistors. Dave Reich, Theta 2009
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post #198 of 8617 Old 01-26-2009, 12:50 PM - Thread Starter
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Great point Bland.

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post #199 of 8617 Old 01-26-2009, 01:07 PM
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The latest high end blu-ray players have a lot of post processing. That is why you see differences between them. Playing at 1080p/24 does not mean you are getting the pure unadulterated image from the disc. There is no player that doesn't do some sort of post processing...whether that just be settings like contrast/tint etc...or more advanced things like interpolation and detail enhancements.

For HDMI audio, there is the controversial issue of jitter. This would account for differences with LPCM particularly over HDMI. BUt there is more than that. THe players do get to fiddle with the sound, even bitstream. For example the S5000 has a dynamic range compression setting which works on TrueHD or DD. This seems to affect the output whether you are using LPCM or bitstream. So unfortunately you cannot trust the HDMI stream to be unadulterated either!
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post #200 of 8617 Old 01-26-2009, 01:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joerod View Post

I have to agree with Scott. I also notice an improvement for both Audio and Video over HDMI and I think it has a lot to do with them being separate. I am heading down there now to do more testing (plus The Mummy movies)...



Joerod, can you clarify the first sentence in the above quote? Are you saying that the sound is better over HDMI or is the sound better over analog? Its not clear.
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post #201 of 8617 Old 01-26-2009, 01:16 PM
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He agrees with Scott.
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post #202 of 8617 Old 01-26-2009, 01:27 PM
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He agrees with Scott.

Okay, comedian.
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post #203 of 8617 Old 01-26-2009, 01:45 PM
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Just funnin' ya!
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post #204 of 8617 Old 01-26-2009, 01:55 PM
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Just funnin' ya!


I knew that.
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post #205 of 8617 Old 01-26-2009, 01:59 PM
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He agrees with Scott.


That's pretty dam funny.
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post #206 of 8617 Old 01-26-2009, 02:23 PM
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In a perfect room, with no need for room correction, I believe it make sense to buy 09 and to use its analog outputs..

Sound from HDMI on the other hand doesn't seem to vary that much between player with decent drives ...

09 will definately sound better from HDMI but not that much better as its pprice suggests .
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post #207 of 8617 Old 01-26-2009, 02:32 PM
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Quote:
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In a perfect room, with no need for room correction, I believe it make sense to buy 09 and to use its analog outputs..

Sound from HDMI on the other hand doesn't seem to vary that much between player with decent drives ...

09 will definately sound better from HDMI but not that much better as its pprice suggests .

No such thing as a perfect room...... Hence the need for room correction.

Worried about jitter? Send LPCM.

There are more than a handful of [op amps] that sound so good that most designers want to be using them as opposed to discreet transistors. Dave Reich, Theta 2009
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post #208 of 8617 Old 01-26-2009, 03:11 PM
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Humour me here but can one of you new North American owners clarify whether the 09 has three of the TAOC support feet or four? (even the manual suggests three, yet the back panel photos in the brochures show four).

Mines been on order since before Christmas but Canada's always a little behind US deliveries (maybe its because the 09's coming up here only have the three feet!)
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post #209 of 8617 Old 01-26-2009, 04:02 PM
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What's TAOC?
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post #210 of 8617 Old 01-26-2009, 04:08 PM
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Humour me here but can one of you new North American owners clarify whether the 09 has three of the TAOC support feet or four? (even the manual suggests three, yet the back panel photos in the brochures show four).

Mines been on order since before Christmas but Canada's always a little behind US deliveries (maybe its because the 09's coming up here only have the three feet!)

Three feet.
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