The Pioneer Elite BDP-09FD Owner's Thread... - Page 8 - AVS Forum
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post #211 of 8637 Old 01-26-2009, 05:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by progprog View Post

What's TAOC?

According to the new 16 page 09 brochure on Pioneer USA..carbon composite insulator feet made by TAOC an accessory brand revered by audiophiles around the world'.

And thanks very much for the clarification Scott.
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post #212 of 8637 Old 01-26-2009, 05:51 PM
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Originally Posted by thebland View Post

No such thing as a perfect room...... Hence the need for room correction.

Worried about jitter? Send LPCM.

Why would there be less jitter with sending LPCM? Either are digital so either can have jitter? When either hits the DAC of the processor/ receiver hopefully the DAC there will handle the jitter.

Or are you saying that there is less jitter with LPCM vs BS over HDMI? If so then that again would depend on the source?

jimi
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post #213 of 8637 Old 01-26-2009, 05:54 PM
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Originally Posted by jimim View Post

Why would there be less jitter with sending LPCM? Either are digital so either can have jitter? When either hits the DAC of the processor/ receiver hopefully the DAC there will handle the jitter.

Or are you saying that there is less jitter with LPCM vs BS over HDMI? If so then that again would depend on the source?

jimi

Bitstream has less inherent jitter issues than LPCM when transmitted over HDMI. This player can virtually eliminate jitter via PQLS if your receiver supports it, though few do. Most receivers will have some circuitry to correct jitter w/ PCM, bitstream is packeted so jitter in transmission is a non-issue.
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post #214 of 8637 Old 01-26-2009, 06:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Ruined View Post

Bitstream has less inherent jitter issues than LPCM when transmitted over HDMI. This player can virtually eliminate jitter via PQLS if your receiver supports it, though few do. Most receivers will have some circuitry to correct jitter w/ PCM, bitstream is packeted so jitter in transmission is a non-issue.

There really is no way to track jitter over HDMI anyway is there? You have HDMI chip doing the transmission in the receiver? The amp never really knows what kinda shape the PCM is in when it does it's DAC conversion?

Am I correct here?

I never really knew which would have less jitter, never really thought about it cause there is so much going on with HDMI. With regular CD or lossless audio you have your source which does the DAC and reclocks and then off to the preamp or you have digital out to a DAC which will reclock and take care jitter if you are upsampling or you are at the mercy of the digital source if you DAC doesn't upsample.
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post #215 of 8637 Old 01-26-2009, 08:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jimim View Post

There really is no way to track jitter over HDMI anyway is there? You have HDMI chip doing the transmission in the receiver? The amp never really knows what kinda shape the PCM is in when it does it's DAC conversion?

Am I correct here?

I never really knew which would have less jitter, never really thought about it cause there is so much going on with HDMI. With regular CD or lossless audio you have your source which does the DAC and reclocks and then off to the preamp or you have digital out to a DAC which will reclock and take care jitter if you are upsampling or you are at the mercy of the digital source if you DAC doesn't upsample.

Well, HDMI does have provisions to virtually eliminate jitter but it is optional and Pioneer is the only manufacturer that has enabled it thus far (via PQLS); other manufs can implement their own versions but none have thus far. Without that, HDMI is just as susceptible to jitter as any other digital interconnect.
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post #216 of 8637 Old 01-26-2009, 10:26 PM
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When will this player be released in Canada?
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post #217 of 8637 Old 01-26-2009, 11:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruined View Post

Well, HDMI does have provisions to virtually eliminate jitter but it is optional and Pioneer is the only manufacturer that has enabled it thus far (via PQLS); other manufs can implement their own versions but none have thus far. Without that, HDMI is just as susceptible to jitter as any other digital interconnect.

A.F.A.I.K. Meridian also just released their HDMI-box (HD621) that reduces the jitter issue. Selling all-digital-audio equipment, and believing that all decoding should be done in the player (needed for BD-Live), the jitter-issue with LPCM is very important for them. That's why it took them so long before they came out with this ($3K) box.

Would be nice to connect the box to the main-HDMI output of this Pioneer player and the sub-HDMI output to a calibrated Kuro-projector
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post #218 of 8637 Old 01-26-2009, 11:38 PM
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Originally Posted by wagnerc View Post

When will this player be released in Canada?

The CES press-release which includes the 09 is also on their Canadian website, so I presume it will:
http://www.pioneerelectronics.ca/POC...er+at+CES+2009
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post #219 of 8637 Old 01-26-2009, 11:58 PM
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Originally Posted by wagnerc View Post

When will this player be released in Canada?

Where would one be able to obtain one if wanted to buy O/S ?

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post #220 of 8637 Old 01-27-2009, 05:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruined View Post

Well, HDMI does have provisions to virtually eliminate jitter but it is optional and Pioneer is the only manufacturer that has enabled it thus far (via PQLS); other manufs can implement their own versions but none have thus far. Without that, HDMI is just as susceptible to jitter as any other digital interconnect.

Denon uses DenonLink in their upcoming A1UDCI universal player to combat jitter:

http://usa.denon.com/DVDA1UDCI.blurayrel.Final.pdf

I think Sony has a version as well called HATS.

I thought most major brands have some form of jitter-control?

Pioneer broke my heart.
Denon broke my wallet.
Oppo broke my thinking.
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post #221 of 8637 Old 01-27-2009, 05:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MXM View Post

Hi joerod

Here in the UK the LX91 has a few issues playing some Blu-ray discs,i have The Mummy box set,with disc 1 when Arabic is spoken,the English subtitles do not work.If i try to select normal subtitles the LX91 locks up and the only way fix it is to unplug it from the mains.

This problem has been confirmed with other UK forum members.


MXM

I have the 51fd and this is exactly what mine is doing as well. (I'm from Down Under)
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post #222 of 8637 Old 01-27-2009, 05:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruined View Post

Well, HDMI does have provisions to virtually eliminate jitter but it is optional and Pioneer is the only manufacturer that has enabled it thus far (via PQLS); other manufs can implement their own versions but none have thus far. Without that, HDMI is just as susceptible to jitter as any other digital interconnect.

Now I might be wrong but is the PQLS oly for 2 channel? So if we are talking about LPCM for DD True or DTS MA and such they will not have the benefits of it?

jimi
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post #223 of 8637 Old 01-27-2009, 06:30 AM
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In BDP-09FD PQLS is for cd only...
But Pioneer in future BR players will give multichannel PQLS with conversion to PCM.

First player with mch PQLS will come to market in April .
Unknown if BDP-09FD can be upgraded...
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post #224 of 8637 Old 01-27-2009, 07:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ssak View Post

First player with mch PQLS will come to market in April

are you referring to the BDP-320FD?
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post #225 of 8637 Old 01-27-2009, 07:27 AM
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I would assume that all of the new Pre-Pros use some type of anti-jitter feature. The Anthem D2v uses TMDS which which buffers and re-clocks the digital signal it to reduce jitter in an attempt to make it a non-issue.

So, those of us who do not have a Pioneer receiver may not be losing too much in anti-jitter control. PQLS may be much more of a marketing tool for Pioneer, than a one of a kind anti-jitter solution.

Stan
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post #226 of 8637 Old 01-27-2009, 07:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mplitkins View Post

I've had my 09FD for a week now. I can confirm what joerod has said regarding PQ and AQ of the unit. I have not experienced a DVD layer change so I am not sure how slow it actually is (mostly been checking out Blu-ray material).

I haven't explored the video adjustments as much as joerod has, but they are all there. An interesting note on the Kurolink according to the ISF guy who was out and calibrated my new panel: it will defeat any ISF settings if you use it, so we just turned it off.

As far as I can tell the analog outs are not active at the same time as the HDMI audio out (haven't tried the optical). You have to go into the menus and switch between them. A bit of an annoyance (must be particularly annoying for joerod with his testing). If I'm wrong I'd love to know. Also didn't see any button on the remote for switching.

For now I have been using the analog outs and they sound great. Since my receiver has all of the smarts for room equalization and speaker sizing, etc. I just set the audio parameters in the player to do as little processing of the audio before it gets to the receiver (large speakers all around, all distances equal and at default, all levels equal and at default, etc.).

Unit came with firmware version 2.15 and a day or so later 2.24 showed up on the Pioneer website. Update was smooth via a CD. Oh, haven't played any CDs on it yet either. All of my music is delivered from a server these days.

So don't use Kurolink and you're okay, then?
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post #227 of 8637 Old 01-27-2009, 07:37 AM
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Originally Posted by gbaby View Post

Nothwithstanding the outcome of the shootout with the Pioneer '09, the Sony 5000, and the Denon 3800, I still give the Sony the edge because it plays DTS-MA out the box without a firmware upgrade, plays BD Live, and has a 5 years warranty, more than double the others.

Why isn't the Marantz BD8002 included?
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post #228 of 8637 Old 01-27-2009, 07:43 AM - Thread Starter
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The Marantz and the Denon 3800 are nearly identical... Or are...

For my latest Reviews and Stuff google -> Joe Rod Home Theater .Com
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post #229 of 8637 Old 01-27-2009, 07:48 AM
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Yes thats the one WestcoastD.


TMDS from Anthem as well as other acromyms from other companies, reduces jitter dramaticaly..
Pioneer in SC-09ΤΧ/SC-LX90 for example, has designed an Ultra Low Jitter circuit with the help of sound rate converters...

All these tricks work BUT they cost and they don't eliminate jitter ...

PQLS eliminates jitter and does not raise the cost for Pioneer...
The downside is that it works only with a Pioneer amp/player compo.
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post #230 of 8637 Old 01-27-2009, 07:52 AM
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Does this player have the capability to convert and send out LPCM for DTS MA And TrueHD lossless encodes? My new processor has a bug that only sends bass to my subs with LPCM.... Argghhh. Wondering if it's worth moving from the 05 to this. The dual HDMI outs are an incredible feature IMO.
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post #231 of 8637 Old 01-27-2009, 08:01 AM
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For $2K and a new release, I hope it decodes DTS MA LPCM..

Isn't PQLS only for 2 ch??

My Home Theater of the Month- Le Petit Trianon

There are more than a handful of [op amps] that sound so good that most designers want to be using them as opposed to discreet transistors. Dave Reich, Theta 2009
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post #232 of 8637 Old 01-27-2009, 08:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sk20 View Post

It's not just that--SACD uses DSD, which is unlike anything else, and it can't be done properly in software. It needs special chips (or really really fast FPGAs). So it's not something that can be bolted into a player by writing some code--it has to be included in the hardware.

That's why I think SACD is going to die, which is sad because it sounds really good. What will happen instead is that profile 3.0 (audio-only) Blu-ray will take over to fill SACD's niche, and let's hope it does a good job of it.

I'll keep my reference SACD player and continue playing outstanding recordings on it, but it will become a curiosity to show guests, like bringing out the vinyl.

Yes. Actually, some have been impressed when I mentioned that I have a turntable.

I think it possible that the more functions built into a player the greater a chance for problems. The Oppo 83 and Denon A1UDCI (did I get it right?) will bear close watching.

My question on this Pioneer is whether or not it's overkill for a simple 2-channel person like me. I'm not really a movie buff; my interests lean toward music and special interest material. Despite my interest in a BD player my lot is still with DVD as I already have a fair amount of those, so if the best DVD player is a BD player that's fine; I'll have the option of getting into BD at my leisure. Still, this is a lot to spend for a (potentially) one-use player, so I'm hoping for more on the 09's performance as a 2-channel CD player, as well as functionality reports. Blu-ray is still relatively new technology, and there are numerous issues reported on other threads regarding other players. But who knows, perhaps the 09 could take over everything in my setup. Except for the vinyl, of course.
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post #233 of 8637 Old 01-27-2009, 08:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thebland View Post

For $2K and a new release, I hope it decodes DTS MA LPCM..

Isn't PQLS only for 2 ch??


Read post #223
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post #234 of 8637 Old 01-27-2009, 08:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WestCoastD View Post

as much as I would love to have SACD/DVD-A integrated into a "Super BD" player like the BDP-09FD it's probably best that it isn't. I believe it add's additional complexity to the laser/optical mechanics as well as related firmware, consequently more prone to failures (as evident with the recent Denon universal players). I'd rather place the focus, or "role", on exquisite BD, SD-DVD video, HD audio, and CD performance.

Someone else who thinks as I do on this. I don't feel so isolated now.
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post #235 of 8637 Old 01-27-2009, 08:32 AM
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My dealer doesn't carry Pioneer and the nearest one is just over a hundred miles away according to the Pioneer website (I live out in the sticks). Can any of you guys PM me a good dealer willing to ship outside there area. A nice discount wouldn't hurt either.
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post #236 of 8637 Old 01-27-2009, 09:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EWL5 View Post

Denon uses DenonLink in their upcoming A1UDCI universal player to combat jitter:

http://usa.denon.com/DVDA1UDCI.blurayrel.Final.pdf

I think Sony has a version as well called HATS.

I thought most major brands have some form of jitter-control?

Denon-link uses ethernet cable AFAIK, not HDMI. Not sure about Sony's deal.

I was just saying that to my knowledge Pioneer is the only company that has enabled virtual jitter elimination via HDMI (PQLS) for LPCM.
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post #237 of 8637 Old 01-27-2009, 10:07 AM
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Originally Posted by prepress View Post

So don't use Kurolink and you're okay, then?

That is my understanding. Maybe Walkamo can clarify.

I can say that with Kurolink disabled but using ISF calibrated settings on the panel, the image produced by this player is simply stunning. I haven't even bothered to go back in and try turning the Kurolink on (I also have been incredibly busy).

I would be curious to see any sort of recommended video settings in the player such that it passes the video out to the panel in it's most "unprocessed" form. For now I have been using the Pioneer PDP settings since they seem very neutral and subjectively look the "best."

I had been using the analog audio outs until now, but I just switched to HDMI audio until the codec updates arrive for the player. Then I may switch back.

I was a little nervous that using one HDMI out directly to my panel for video and the other HDMI to my receiver for audio would result in some sort of lip sync issues, but I haven't noticed any so far.

It would be really nice if there were a "one click" way to switch between the audio output options (and on-the-fly without having to stop playback to get into the player setup). Perhaps a firmware update down the road could address this?

We watched Hellboy II the other night and it was really gorgeous (audio and video).
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post #238 of 8637 Old 01-27-2009, 10:30 AM
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Originally Posted by KX250F View Post

My dealer doesn't carry Pioneer and the nearest one is just over a hundred miles away according to the Pioneer website (I live out in the sticks). Can any of you guys PM me a good dealer willing to ship outside there area. A nice discount wouldn't hurt either.

The Pioneer store in CA will ship anywhere in the US, but they do not offer a discount. Great bunch of people over there. I bought my HD1 from them and will most likely buy the upcoming 23FD from them as well. Ask for Jeff, he is the manager over there and a great guy to deal with!

Go Celtics!
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post #239 of 8637 Old 01-27-2009, 11:19 AM
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I am interested to see what settings you have messed around with.
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post #240 of 8637 Old 01-27-2009, 11:24 AM - Thread Starter
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Just got in and will work on "tweaks" today.

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