Official OPPO BDP-83 Owner's Thread [technical talk only] - Page 1323 - AVS Forum
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post #39661 of 39679 Old 10-30-2014, 08:32 AM
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I have two BDP-83s (one in my HT, the other in my family room set-up), but I'm not upset with OPPO. If anything, I blame 20th Century Fox and MediaTek.

I'm currently eyeing a Sony BDP-S6200 as a secondary BD player for my HT. Looking forward to watching X-Men: DoFP.
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post #39662 of 39679 Old 10-30-2014, 03:06 PM
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Originally Posted by GeekGirl View Post
From my engineering background, I can understand Oppo's perspective. That email is an honest assessment and is probably the most they can say in a public forum. I give them credit for being forthcoming in this situation.

(It's not productive to turn this into a rant about keeping up with DRM vs. product life expectancy.)

Knowing that BD software changes and that Fox is a PITA about theirs, I can see both sides of this situation. OTOH, when I make a HT or audio purchase, it is with the thought that each piece is quality and will have a long life and is NOT disposable. IF the 8 series cannot have their f/w updated, then why would I have the expectation that their 10 series would not have the same issue four years down the road, or next year -- credibility has been lost. There have been some VERY substantial and detailed answers on this topic for which I am grateful, and will try to avoid Atmos-encoded Blu-rays and with a fairly large library of Blu-rays, the BDP83SE of mine that just ejects the new Transformers disk ("Wrong Disk") will still be used to play them but when there are a substantial number of Blu-rays encoded with Atmos in which I have zero interest, then I will turn to Panasonic for a second player and of course, my trusty PS3 seems to never be without regular f/w updates. I understand Oppo's situation and now they understand mine which they will have no concerns about. A dozen friends have series 8 players due to my recommendation and now are now happy with me for my recommendation and I have lost some credibility too. Since the picture quality is probably +- 1-3% between the cheapest and best BD player, it appears to me that buying a disposable unit makes the most sense to me.

Pioneer Elite Kuro, McIntosh amplifiers -- MC501 monos (3) and MC352's (2), McIntosh MX150 pre-pro; Oppo 83SE; speakers -- Aerial Acoustics Model 9's for mains and CC5 for center, Def Tech BPVX/P's and BPVX's for surrounds and JL F113's (2) for subs; Roku 3; PS3; Wiii; Tivos; and Monster HTPS...
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post #39663 of 39679 Old 10-30-2014, 03:06 PM
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Originally Posted by GeekGirl View Post
From my engineering background, I can understand Oppo's perspective. That email is an honest assessment and is probably the most they can say in a public forum. I give them credit for being forthcoming in this situation.

(It's not productive to turn this into a rant about keeping up with DRM vs. product life expectancy.)

Knowing that BD software changes and that Fox is a PITA about theirs, I can see both sides of this situation. OTOH, when I make a HT or audio purchase, it is with the thought that each piece is quality and will have a long life and is NOT disposable. IF the 8 series cannot have their f/w updated, then why would I have the expectation that their 10 series would not have the same issue four years down the road, or next year -- credibility has been lost. There have been some VERY substantial and detailed answers on this topic for which I am grateful, and will try to avoid Atmos-encoded Blu-rays and with a fairly large library of Blu-rays, the BDP83SE of mine that just ejects the new Transformers disk ("Wrong Disk") will still be used to play them but when there are a substantial number of Blu-rays encoded with Atmos in which I have zero interest, then I will turn to Panasonic for a second player and of course, my trusty PS3 seems to never be without regular f/w updates. I understand Oppo's situation and now they understand mine which they will have no concerns about. A dozen friends have series 8 players due to my recommendation and now are now happy with me for my recommendation and I have lost some credibility too. Since the picture quality is probably +- 1-3% between the cheapest and best BD player, it appears to me that buying a disposable unit makes the most sense to me.

Pioneer Elite Kuro, McIntosh amplifiers -- MC501 monos (3) and MC352's (2), McIntosh MX150 pre-pro; Oppo 83SE; speakers -- Aerial Acoustics Model 9's for mains and CC5 for center, Def Tech BPVX/P's and BPVX's for surrounds and JL F113's (2) for subs; Roku 3; PS3; Wiii; Tivos; and Monster HTPS...
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post #39664 of 39679 Old 10-30-2014, 03:40 PM
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Originally Posted by weekendtoy View Post
Speaking of titles that won't play on the BDP-83. The Blu-Ray off Led Zeppelin's Celebration Day won't play on my '83 but does play just fine upstairs on the '105. Anybody else have this problem?


Not complaining, just saying...

Are you referring to the BD-A or BD-V? The BD-A plays fine on my 83.
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post #39665 of 39679 Old 10-30-2014, 03:59 PM
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Originally Posted by MikeSp View Post
Knowing that BD software changes and that Fox is a PITA about theirs, I can see both sides of this situation. OTOH, when I make a HT or audio purchase, it is with the thought that each piece is quality and will have a long life and is NOT disposable. IF the 8 series cannot have their f/w updated, then why would I have the expectation that their 10 series would not have the same issue four years down the road, or next year -- credibility has been lost. There have been some VERY substantial and detailed answers on this topic for which I am grateful, and will try to avoid Atmos-encoded Blu-rays and with a fairly large library of Blu-rays, the BDP83SE of mine that just ejects the new Transformers disk ("Wrong Disk") will still be used to play them but when there are a substantial number of Blu-rays encoded with Atmos in which I have zero interest, then I will turn to Panasonic for a second player and of course, my trusty PS3 seems to never be without regular f/w updates. I understand Oppo's situation and now they understand mine which they will have no concerns about. A dozen friends have series 8 players due to my recommendation and now are now happy with me for my recommendation and I have lost some credibility too. Since the picture quality is probably +- 1-3% between the cheapest and best BD player, it appears to me that buying a disposable unit makes the most sense to me.


If you want technology that's not disposable, dust off your old turntable. Life in the digital world is constant change. I'm not going to blame Oppo because Fox are paranoid a-holes. The 83 was a revolutionary player when it came out and is still fully supported by them within the boundaries that they couldn't have projected when it came out. BTW, if you want to complain about the lack of product support, buy a Panasonic. They should keep you pissed for years.

I'm going to stick with Oppo. I still find their products extraordinary.
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post #39666 of 39679 Old 10-30-2014, 04:06 PM
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I know of no confirmed problems with the 83 playing Atmos Tracks so long as you use Bitstream output as is required of all Blu-ray players. There's been one person here report a problem and several responding that the disc in question plays just fine.

It remains the case that we've got 1 popular disc that isn't playing (confirmed), although even THAT title appears to only be having problems in the version Fox released for the U.S. Lucky US. Thanks Fox!

In other words, the sky is not yet actually falling.

As for the implications for say the 10x players, I think that's also a stretch. It will be increasingly difficult for the studios to author weird stuff that breaks them because other player makers use the same chips. Following OPPO evidently. In addition, what is ALLOWED in Blu-ray authoring is slowly but surely getting hemmed in. The de facto standard.

Of course this stuff goes in waves. People forget that when the 83 came out it was not only a quantum leap in speed and quality, it also played discs many other players, now in the trash heaps, simply could not play.

People flocked to the 83 for excellent reasons. It's sad that Fox has finally figured out how to break it. Particularly since there's no good reason for them to author discs so bizarrely. But to punish yourself by switching to K-Mart specials? *SHUDDER*


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post #39667 of 39679 Old 10-30-2014, 04:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ti-triodes View Post
If you want technology that's not disposable, dust off your old turntable. Life in the digital world is constant change. I'm not going to blame Oppo because Fox are paranoid a-holes. The 83 was a revolutionary player when it came out and is still fully supported by them within the boundaries that they couldn't have projected when it came out. BTW, if you want to complain about the lack of product support, buy a Panasonic. They should keep you pissed for years.

I'm going to stick with Oppo. I still find their products extraordinary.
Panasonic will not piss me off at all -- just throw it away and buy another disposable piece and BTW, I am not unfamiliar with advances in the digital world as a former IT specialist. As I said, I understand Oppo's position and situation and whereas I am old-fashioned believing in long-lasting products and paying the price to obtain them, in the digital world as you alluded to, it does not stay still long. New cell phone every two years, new tablets every two years or sooner...'tis the way of things now. Your opinion is very valid!!


Mike

Pioneer Elite Kuro, McIntosh amplifiers -- MC501 monos (3) and MC352's (2), McIntosh MX150 pre-pro; Oppo 83SE; speakers -- Aerial Acoustics Model 9's for mains and CC5 for center, Def Tech BPVX/P's and BPVX's for surrounds and JL F113's (2) for subs; Roku 3; PS3; Wiii; Tivos; and Monster HTPS...
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post #39668 of 39679 Old 10-30-2014, 04:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ti-triodes View Post
If you want technology that's not disposable, dust off your old turntable. Life in the digital world is constant change. I'm not going to blame Oppo because Fox are paranoid a-holes. The 83 was a revolutionary player when it came out and is still fully supported by them within the boundaries that they couldn't have projected when it came out. BTW, if you want to complain about the lack of product support, buy a Panasonic. They should keep you pissed for years.

I'm going to stick with Oppo. I still find their products extraordinary.
Panasonic will not piss me off at all -- just throw it away and buy another disposable piece and BTW, I am not unfamiliar with advances in the digital world as a former IT specialist. As I said, I understand Oppo's position and situation and whereas I am old-fashioned believing in long-lasting products and paying the price to obtain them, in the digital world as you alluded to, it does not stay still long. New cell phone every two years, new tablets every two years or sooner...'tis the way of things now. Your opinion is very valid!!


Mike

Pioneer Elite Kuro, McIntosh amplifiers -- MC501 monos (3) and MC352's (2), McIntosh MX150 pre-pro; Oppo 83SE; speakers -- Aerial Acoustics Model 9's for mains and CC5 for center, Def Tech BPVX/P's and BPVX's for surrounds and JL F113's (2) for subs; Roku 3; PS3; Wiii; Tivos; and Monster HTPS...
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post #39669 of 39679 Old 10-30-2014, 05:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeSp View Post
Knowing that BD software changes and that Fox is a PITA about theirs, I can see both sides of this situation. OTOH, when I make a HT or audio purchase, it is with the thought that each piece is quality and will have a long life and is NOT disposable. IF the 8 series cannot have their f/w updated, then why would I have the expectation that their 10 series would not have the same issue four years down the road, or next year -- credibility has been lost. There have been some VERY substantial and detailed answers on this topic for which I am grateful, and will try to avoid Atmos-encoded Blu-rays and with a fairly large library of Blu-rays, the BDP83SE of mine that just ejects the new Transformers disk ("Wrong Disk") will still be used to play them but when there are a substantial number of Blu-rays encoded with Atmos in which I have zero interest, then I will turn to Panasonic for a second player and of course, my trusty PS3 seems to never be without regular f/w updates. I understand Oppo's situation and now they understand mine which they will have no concerns about. A dozen friends have series 8 players due to my recommendation and now are now happy with me for my recommendation and I have lost some credibility too. Since the picture quality is probably +- 1-3% between the cheapest and best BD player, it appears to me that buying a disposable unit makes the most sense to me.
The BDP-83 is of course not disposable. So far you have only experienced ONE disc that won't play, and it seems that most likely Oppo's
hands are tied if Mediatek doesn't want to retro-update their old chips.
Personally, I don't blame Oppo or Mediatek, as I feel 100% of the blame falls on FOX Studios for changing the DRM specs.
It's quite ridiculous of them to do so, since every time they do, pirates easily figure out a way around their elementary coding tricks.
The only thing they are thwarting, is the ability for legitimate paying consumers to enjoy their movies.

I can understand how you would have the expectation that a piece of hardware like the BDP-83 should be almost
infallible for a very long time, but things do sometimes change and Oppo has no control over that.
As for said change, having the same expectation for the 10x series of players is quite a bit safer,
since more manufacturers use the same chips as in those players compared to the 8x series players.
If discs were to start failing in those players, then they would fail in many other players and that would not fly.

I don't think any credibility has been lost from Oppo. It's not their fault, and there's nothing they can do about it.
That's like saying if an automobile driver runs a red light and smashes into your car, that your credibility as a safe driver is now lost.
The fault is not yours, but is of the other driver who failed to abide by the rules of the road.
You can take that analogy as far as you like, and even say that maybe your car is so old, it can't be repaired...
or that the insurance company won't give you enough money to replace it with an equal valued vehicle.
All those aspects are not fair, but as they say, cest la vie.

(Another poster (Bob) already covered the fact that Atmos encoded discs have no issues the 8x players,
so I don't need to re-explain that.)

Buying another cheap player to supplement your 83 is one option, but personally, if I were in the same situation,
I would invest in a way to make backup copies of my BDs where the problem can be removed and thus making said problem discs playable again.
I suspect many 83 owners are doing exactly that, since we only have a handful of people talking about this issue.

Once again, as previously mentioned here, the Sony PS3 is one of those products still being sold as new with full warranty,
and thus because of it's feature set, does still get fw updates.
The issue that has occurred with the 8x players will probably never happen to the PS3, because the studios know how many
PS3s are on the market, and because of that they will use the PS3 to test their product against before releasing it.
Unfortunately, they are not as kind to test it against all players on the market, which they could easily do, but just don't
because they just simply don't care to.

Sorry about your rep being in jep with the recommendation of the 83. FWIW you weren't wrong to do so, but it's just one of those things.
As it stands there are solutions to the problem without losing your head or hardware.
The BDP-83 is still fully functional, works with 99.999% of discs that are put in it, has many other functions aside from BD
playback that work flawlessly, and still retains a good resale value.
You can't say the same for any of the cheaper players where you are lucky if they last more than a couple years
before the hardware fails and they just get thrown in the trash.
I'm not saying the situation doesn't suck, it does, but you do have options.
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post #39670 of 39679 Old 10-30-2014, 05:28 PM
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What makes me - as a software developer - worry about this issue is that Oppo obviously cannot fix anything in the firmware on their own without help from Mediatek.

Since the operating system does not change between bug-fix related updates, but Oppo still cannot fix any issues on their own with the current Mediatek SDK, this means that Oppo developers simply do not have any sourcecode for the critical parts of the firmware. This includes BD structure parser, BD+ Engine, Java VM and decoder microcode.

I wonder if Oppo "developers" have done any firmware development at all in the past or if they just forward customer complains to Mediatek and hope for a fix...
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Quote:
Originally Posted by antivirus View Post
What makes me - as a software developer - worry about this issue is that Oppo obviously cannot fix anything in the firmware on their own without help from Mediatek.

Since the operating system does not change between bug-fix related updates, but Oppo still cannot fix any issues on their own with the current Mediatek SDK, this means that Oppo developers simply do not have any sourcecode for the critical parts of the firmware. This includes BD structure parser, BD+ Engine, Java VM and decoder microcode.

I wonder if Oppo "developers" have done any firmware development at all in the past or if they just forward customer complains to Mediatek and hope for a fix...
AFAIK, Oppo does most of their own firmware coding.
As you already know, some things can't be done without the help from the chip manufacturer,
but when that is not the case, Oppo software engineers develop the rest of the software as needed.
Oppo Digital is not one of those OEMs where they pay someone else to do the work and then slap their name on the side.
In fact it's quite the opposite, as other OEMs have actually paid Oppo for their hardware and software designs,
and used those in their own players while slapping their name on the side.

Here is the grand poobah of them all ...
http://www.audioholics.com/blu-ray-a...icon-outside-1
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post #39673 of 39679 Old 10-30-2014, 05:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Smarty-pants View Post
AFAIK, Oppo does most of their own firmware coding.
...
Oppo software engineers develop the rest of the software as needed.
...
When you say they do their own firmware coding, you are probably talking about the user interface because if they don't have sourcecode for any of the core modules, they cannot fix bugs or enhance functionality without help from Mediatek...
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Originally Posted by antivirus View Post
What makes me - as a software developer - worry about this issue is that Oppo obviously cannot fix anything in the firmware on their own without help from Mediatek.

Since the operating system does not change between bug-fix related updates, but Oppo still cannot fix any issues on their own with the current Mediatek SDK, this means that Oppo developers simply do not have any sourcecode for the critical parts of the firmware. This includes BD structure parser, BD+ Engine, Java VM and decoder microcode.

I wonder if Oppo "developers" have done any firmware development at all in the past or if they just forward customer complains to Mediatek and hope for a fix...
So you've never seen programs that ran just dandy in DOS that didn't run on Windows 95, or one in 95 that blew up in XP or XP programs that all of a sudden died a blue death in Vista?

So many examples of operating systems going end of life and software companies having to hustle to keep up with the changes. The thing that makes it achievable to step up is that these are general purpose operating systems and are much more able to support backwards compatibility. Even with all of that, Microsoft only supports two versions at any one time - the current one and one behind (see Oppo 103/105 and Oppo 93/95).

Oppo is much more constrained. The operating system may not have changed (Linux?) but they don't have the ability to swap out Mediatek processors for all 83s sold. They weren't designed that way. They have integrated Mediatek processors at a particular version. It won't change. I think it's a testament to the Oppo developers that not only did they add a ton of functionality (DLNA support, DVD-A(?), etc... ) but also updated for much longer than I expected an end of life system.

The SDK for a product that is embedded and won't get changed is only available through Mediatek. It doesn't matter how well you design software, if the SDK is not able to do a new function that you want and will never be updated, then you are done and won't be able to enhance your product.

BTW, my 83 runs Transformers just fine. I'm sure there are disks it won't play, why is why after five years of great service, it's in my bedroom now. A 103D sits in its previous place.
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post #39675 of 39679 Old 10-30-2014, 07:25 PM
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Originally Posted by antivirus View Post
When you say they do their own firmware coding, you are probably talking about the user interface because if they don't have sourcecode for any of the core modules, they cannot fix bugs or enhance functionality without help from Mediatek...
More than just user interface, but I do not have much detailed info or authorization to post such information.
I know there are very specific features that Oppo engineers have developed though, like the "DVD 24p Conversion" feature.

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post #39676 of 39679 Old 10-30-2014, 07:53 PM
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Originally Posted by ti-triodes View Post
BTW, if you want to complain about the lack of product support, buy a Panasonic. They should keep you pissed for years.

...or Onkyo, for damn sure...

Quote:
I'm going to stick with Oppo. I still find their products extraordinary.

Word up...
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post #39677 of 39679 Old Yesterday, 02:54 AM
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Originally Posted by hernanu View Post
So you've never seen programs that ran just dandy in DOS that didn't run on Windows 95, or one in 95 that blew up in XP or XP programs that all of a sudden died a blue death in Vista?

So many examples of operating systems going end of life and software companies having to hustle to keep up with the changes. The thing that makes it achievable to step up is that these are general purpose operating systems and are much more able to support backwards compatibility. Even with all of that, Microsoft only supports two versions at any one time - the current one and one behind (see Oppo 103/105 and Oppo 93/95).
That's nonsense...

Firmware development for the Mediatek SoC is done via cross compilation toolchain on Linux.

The problem is that Mediatek keeps critical parts of the firmware private which means that licensee's like Oppo only get compiled modules (xxx.so) instead of sourcecode as part of a specific SDK revision.

From the fact that other manufacturer's BD players are capable of playing the latest x-men, you can see that the authoring of the disc has been done according to the standards and if specific devices with Mediatek chipset cannot play the title, this means that Mediatek's implementation in the SDK version used to create the firmware image for this particular device contains bugs.

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post #39678 of 39679 Old Yesterday, 07:12 AM
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That's nonsense...

Firmware development for the Mediatek SoC is done via cross compilation toolchain on Linux.

The problem is that Mediatek keeps critical parts of the firmware private which means that licensee's like Oppo only get compiled modules (xxx.so) instead of sourcecode as part of a specific SDK revision.

From the fact that other manufacturer's BD players are capable of playing the latest x-men, you can see that the authoring of the disc has been done according to the standards and if specific devices with Mediatek chipset cannot play the title, this means that Mediatek's implementation in the SDK version used to create the firmware image for this particular device contains bugs.


Of course that's the problem. That's what this means:

"The SDK for a product that is embedded and won't get changed is only available through Mediatek. It doesn't matter how well you design software, if the SDK is not able to do a new function that you want and will never be updated, then you are done and won't be able to enhance your product.
"

Which is why Oppo engineers can't go forward. The cross compilation tool chain is just cross compilation of their source code. So what.

Over and out.
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