Official OPPO BDP-83 Owner's Thread [technical talk only] - Page 188 - AVS Forum
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post #5611 of 39367 Old 03-30-2009, 12:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack D View Post

I don't think the following question has been answered in this thread or the FAQ(if so apologies):

Consider the statement from the manual:

"If you use HDMI to connect audio to an HDMI A/V receiver or audio processor, it is important
that you choose 720p or higher HDMI output resolution when playing high resolution audio
content (SACD, Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HD Master Audio). According to the HDMI
specification, the bandwidth available for audio is proportional to the total bandwidth used by
video."


OK so assume that the Oppo is set to "source direct" video mode and HDMI audio output is engaged. What HDMI bandwidth will be enabled when playing an SACD or DVD-A that has no video?

I ask because I use the Oppo with a Radiance XD video processor so I leave the Oppo in source direct mode. I currently am using analog audio out but will soon be able to use HDMI audio. So I was just preparing.
Thanks for any response.

The manual does have a table showing the Source Direct output resolutions in "Installation / Setting Up the Player - Easy Setup Wizard / Select the Best Output Resolution". DVD-A is not yet shown but I think it is the same as SACD.

-Bill
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post #5612 of 39367 Old 03-30-2009, 12:25 PM - Thread Starter
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DVD-Audio and SACD are both scaled to 1080i automatically when using Source Direct.
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post #5613 of 39367 Old 03-30-2009, 12:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack D View Post

I don't think the following question has been answered in this thread or the FAQ(if so apologies):

Consider the statement from the manual:

"If you use HDMI to connect audio to an HDMI A/V receiver or audio processor, it is important
that you choose 720p or higher HDMI output resolution when playing high resolution audio
content (SACD, Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HD Master Audio). According to the HDMI
specification, the bandwidth available for audio is proportional to the total bandwidth used by
video."


OK so assume that the Oppo is set to "source direct" video mode and HDMI audio output is engaged. What HDMI bandwidth will be enabled when playing an SACD or DVD-A that has no video?

I ask because I use the Oppo with a Radiance XD video processor so I leave the Oppo in source direct mode. I currently am using analog audio out but will soon be able to use HDMI audio. So I was just preparing.
Thanks for any response.

HDMI Audio is not a separate signal. The audio in HDMI is embedded in the blanking intervals of the video. So even if you have an "audio only" source, there will be video present in the HDMI output -- even if only a constant, black screen.

EXAMPLE: Selecting Pure Audio mode on the Oppo mutes video output (as well as turning off the front panel display), but the HDMI output from the Oppo nevertheless includes a constant, black screen at the currently selected output resolution.

Since the audio is embedded in the video, the bandwidth available for audio is a percentage of the bandwidth for the currently selected video output resolution. High bandwidth, multi-channel audio tracks require at least 720p video resolution to fit. This is true whether the video content is normal imaging, or simply a constant, black screen.

In the latest EAP firmware, the Oppo automatically switches "Source Direct" to 1080i output (of a constant, black screen) as necessary to create enough space to hold the high bandwidth, multi-channel audio from SACD and DVD-Audio discs. However I believe you can still have a problem if you manually select explicit 480i or 480p output. I believe what the Oppo does if you do that is give you only the 2-channel down-mix of the audio.
--Bob

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post #5614 of 39367 Old 03-30-2009, 12:43 PM
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Bill, Neuro, Bob,
Many thanks for the quick answers.
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post #5615 of 39367 Old 03-30-2009, 12:59 PM
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The Mods kindly have been fielding all sorts of questions posted from EAPers regarding the BDP-23. A particular theme has emerged and is best characterized by the Mods' reply: "Blah, blah, blah, handshake blah, blah, blah." Either directly or indirectly intimating the HMDI handshake. So what gives? Knowing nothing about the HMDI protocol, (But a lot about networking protocols):

1) Is HDMI so fragile a protocol that it is easily broken?

2) Can the BDP-83's Silicon Image chip be under-performing in some way?

3) It be nice to know especially in those cases where an AVR is in the chain, the manufacturer of the HMDI chipset. (Implying some manufacturer-to-manufacturer discrepancies in their respective implementation of the HDMI protocol). [Anthem won't tell me the HDMI chipset in the D2v FYI]

4) Call me cynical but could it be that the HDMI protocol is first and foremost a medium for HDCP and only second a transport protocol for video data streams?

Any super-nerdy responses greatly appreciated.

Muchas gracias
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post #5616 of 39367 Old 03-30-2009, 01:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sharkshark View Post

nice refrain from using acronyms...

my bad, "Moulin Rouge" it is... Will be interesting to see if it -is- a DTS issue (and the speedup with DTS-CD is related), an excellent idea to test that out.

Hey I'm in Defense Aerospace what do you expect?
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post #5617 of 39367 Old 03-30-2009, 01:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Operon View Post


1) Is HDMI so fragile a protocol that it is easily broken?

Yes. It's a nightmare all the way around!!!

Quote:


2] Can the BDP-83's Silicon Image chip be under-performing in some way?

Not likely, it's just a bunch of compatibility issues.

Quote:


3) It be nice to know especially in those cases where an AVR is in the chain, the manufacturer of the HMDI chipset. (Implying some manufacturer-to-manufacturer discrepancies in their respective implementation of the HDMI protocol). [Anthem won't tell me the HDMI chipset in the D2v FYI]

The more things in the HDMI path, the more likely you could have issues.

Quote:


4) Call me cynical but could it be that the HDMI protocol is first and foremost a medium for HDCP and only second a transport protocol for video data streams?

Both - they go hand in hand.

Quote:


Any super-nerdy responses greatly appreciated.

Nerd friendly info here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HDMI

-steve
My HT Setup - updated 12/25/2012
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post #5618 of 39367 Old 03-30-2009, 01:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Mathus View Post

I have not encountered any serious playback issues but will check out Moulin Rouge for lip-sync and some HDCDs.

Does everyone own Moulin Rouge? I figured it was a niche product.
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post #5619 of 39367 Old 03-30-2009, 01:11 PM
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Operon,
Please don't assume all responders here are AVS Moderators. I'm not an AVS Moderator for example (thank heaven).

HDMI is fraught with difficulties, not the least of which is that trying to run these bandwidths on twisted pair cabling is kind of nuts (compounded by poor mechanical engineering of the spec for plugs and sockets).

The HDMI spec has gone through numerous revisions. The last three revisions have been largely about tightening up the rules for how signals move on the cable and just how much sloppiness is allowed in that. This means that equipment which is not certified to the latest spec (HDMI V1.3c) hasn't had to live with the newer, stricter rules. It MIGHT do it right, or it might not.

But this is all the lowest level stuff. The higher levels of the protocol are still left up to the imagination of each engineering team. For example, how soon after powering the HDMI socket should the device be ready to receive connection requests? Hmm, not spec'ed. Could that be why HDMI problems are often fixed by changing the order in which devices power up. Ya sure, you betcha!

Add to this that many features of HDMI, even of the LATEST HDMI spec, are "optional". HDMI Deep Color is optional. So is CEC control. Etc., etc. Things that are optional get implemented weirdly -- that just the way things happen.

The Oppo implementation has some bugs to be sure. They are working on them. Whether the bugs are in the low level firmware for the HDMI driver chip set or in the higher level protocol requires more digging. On the whole, I'd say the implementation is right about where I'd expect it to be for this new product -- working quite well for most people, but still with some glitches. Way better than many new HDMI products, I'd say.
--Bob

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post #5620 of 39367 Old 03-30-2009, 01:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Operon View Post

1) Is HDMI so fragile a protocol that it is easily broken?

http://www.bluejeanscable.com/articl...-with-hdmi.htm

"Your" isn't the same as "you're". "There", "their" and "they're" are also not the same. Please learn the difference.

And... it's "couldn't care less". Thank you. :)
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post #5621 of 39367 Old 03-30-2009, 01:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Operon View Post

The Mods kindly have been fielding all sorts of questions posted from EAPers regarding the BDP-23. A particular theme has emerged and is best characterized by the Mods' reply: "Blah, blah, blah, handshake blah, blah, blah." Either directly or indirectly intimating the HMDI handshake. So what gives? Knowing nothing about the HMDI protocol, (But a lot about networking protocols):

1) Is HDMI so fragile a protocol that it is easily broken?
Muchas gracias

It's often stated as fact that it is, but frankly, I've found it to be quite robust. Aside from being physically vulnerable when very heavy cables are used (they definitely need support not to pull loose), the digital connection itself seems to works extremely well for all the applications where I have used it.
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post #5622 of 39367 Old 03-30-2009, 01:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by progprog View Post

It's often stated as fact that it is, but frankly, I've found it to be quite robust. Aside from being physically vulnerable when very heavy cables are used (they definitely need support not to pull loose), the digital connection itself seems to works extremely well for all the applications where I have used it.

Well, I have had no problems whatsoever with HDMI in my configurations.

That said, I have helped way too many people with their own HDMI nightmares. Onkyo AVR and Samusng Display owners would certainly almost universally agree that HDMI is "less than perfect" for them.

The least of problems is ensuring the connector stays in place. That's just an obvious example of design stupidity.

HDMI is far from stable. Perhaps they should have had an EAP

-steve
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post #5623 of 39367 Old 03-30-2009, 01:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Operon View Post

1) Is HDMI so fragile a protocol that it is easily broken?

HDMI is not the protocol in question here - HDCP is, and frankly HDCP has been painfully fragile for the nearly five years that I've had direct contact with it. So I'd answer "yes" to that question, if you replace "HDMI" with "HDCP."

Quote:
Originally Posted by Operon View Post

2) Can the BDP-83's Silicon Image chip be under-performing in some way?

I see no evidence to suggest this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Operon View Post

3) It be nice to know especially in those cases where an AVR is in the chain, the manufacturer of the HMDI chipset. (Implying some manufacturer-to-manufacturer discrepancies in their respective implementation of the HDMI protocol). [Anthem won't tell me the HDMI chipset in the D2v FYI]

Again, it's primarily HDCP, not HDMI per se, but yeah, it probably would be nice to know that. Doing the research to turn that up for the myriad array of AVR's (and HDTV's, which also have to be involved in the HDCP negotiations) that might be in use in this thread leaves me cold and a little scared. The fact that the way those chips are implemented in each product will also influence behavior just makes it more daunting. At this point, it's a very old problem with no good solution readily at hand. All companies can do is try to do their best to work within the confines of the standards (especially smaller ones like OPPO that lack a way to influence the standards-makers). We've seen OPPO work studiously on these sorts of issues ever since the 970HD arrived with an HDMI port.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Operon View Post

4) Call me cynical but could it be that the HDMI protocol is first and foremost a medium for HDCP and only second a transport protocol for video data streams?

HDCP has also been used with DVI - in fact, it was created as a way to take DVI out of the computer world (where nobody worried about "stealing" video content passing between your video card and your monitor) and place it in the CE world. HDMI just included it as a requirement, whereas DVI existed before HDCP and therefore didn't require that DVI equipped components provide HDCP support. (Of course, DVI displays that omitted it would not be able to be used with HDMI sources...) I don't see any cynicism in the burden that HDCP places on the design and proper operation of HDMI components.

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post #5624 of 39367 Old 03-30-2009, 01:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stevec325 View Post

HDMI is far from stable. Perhaps they should have had an EAP

I love that idea - can I vote "no" now?

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post #5625 of 39367 Old 03-30-2009, 01:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Operon View Post

1) Is HDMI so fragile a protocol that it is easily broken?

I quote from the BDP-83 manual: "HDMI is a wonderful thing..."

You might check the HDMI forum here to see the issues people have.

That said, it has worked pretty well for me in my very simple setup. This is with a variety of players. Once in a blue moon I get no audio or a pink screen; power cycling fixes it. I seem to be ignoring the audio pops and intermittent dropouts caused by DRM and resolution context switches.

The BDP-83 is a complex appliance connected to other complex appliances. Expect wonderful things.

-Bill
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post #5626 of 39367 Old 03-30-2009, 01:35 PM
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I like HDMI.. only one cable for picture and sound. works great for me.
I know there is alot of love for the oppo dvd players and blurays. some people seem to have some problems with it. because they have a crt tv. that tv had some image problems. it seems there was one gentleman who posted about his problems. you seem to ignore that post.

Jacob
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post #5627 of 39367 Old 03-30-2009, 01:46 PM
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I did some more testing with sd dvd and still don't see that much difference between Oppo 83 or Pan bd30 and Tosh A35 hd dvd. All inputs to my Onkyo sr805 then to my Pan ax200u FP.

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post #5628 of 39367 Old 03-30-2009, 01:47 PM
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I'm one of the fortunate ones that never had a problem with HDMI on any of the various sets, players, and set top boxes. But, it doesn't seem to be a price sensitive problem, with some of the most expensive AVRs having continued problems such as the Yamaha RX11. I would agree that it seems to be an implementation interpretation thing.
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post #5629 of 39367 Old 03-30-2009, 01:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Mathus View Post

After five days with the OPPO, I am very pleased with it. I do not do DVD-A so those issues do not concern me personally but they should be fixed. I have owned many Blu-Ray players since inception and I find the OPPO superb. I have not encountered any serious playback issues but will check out Moulin Rouge for lip-sync and some HDCDs.

Most Region A Blu-Ray players will play some Region B BD discs with a simple work around. It involves pressing MENU or SKIP in the extremely short window after LOAD but before STOP is triggered. For example, this works on the UK disc of GOMORRAH. This works on Samsung 1500, Marantz BD8002, Sony ES2000 and LG 100. The menu comes up and allows play. I cannot get the OPPO to play this disc. It appears the OPPO is so fast that the opportunity window does not happen. This is not a flaw. The Marantz is in same projection system and can serve this sometimes need.


Just curious...any reason why so many folks have Moulin Rouge in their BD collection? If it weren't for this forum I wouldn't have even considered it worthy of watching, let alone owning. How is it so many AVSers own this disk? Is there something special about this disk to have around for testing BD players in general?

OPPO BDP-83 EAP (second group)
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post #5630 of 39367 Old 03-30-2009, 01:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Pariseau View Post

Operon,
Please don't assume all responders here are AVS Moderators. I'm not an AVS Moderator for example (thank heaven).

HDMI is fraught with difficulties, not the least of which is that trying to run these bandwidths on twisted pair cabling is kind of nuts (compounded by poor mechanical engineering of the spec for plugs and sockets).

The HDMI spec has gone through numerous revisions. The last three revisions have been largely about tightening up the rules for how signals move on the cable and just how much sloppiness is allowed in that. This means that equipment which is not certified to the latest spec (HDMI V1.3c) hasn't had to live with the newer, stricter rules. It MIGHT do it right, or it might not.

But this is all the lowest level stuff. The higher levels of the protocol are still left up to the imagination of each engineering team. For example, how soon after powering the HDMI socket should the device be ready to receive connection requests? Hmm, not spec'ed. Could that be why HDMI problems are often fixed by changing the order in which devices power up. Ya sure, you betcha!

Add to this that many features of HDMI, even of the LATEST HDMI spec, are "optional". HDMI Deep Color is optional. So is CEC control. Etc., etc. Things that are optional get implemented weirdly -- that just the way things happen.


--Bob

Bob,

This seems all pretty nutty. Heaven help us. Who invented this? Glad this is not my nightmare. I'd be jumping off the roof. Sheesh.
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post #5631 of 39367 Old 03-30-2009, 02:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by heatwave3 View Post

Just curious...any reason why so many folks have Moulin Rouge in their BD collection? If it weren't for this forum I wouldn't have even considered it worthy of watching, let alone owning. How is it so many AVSers own this disk? Is there something special about this disk to have around for testing BD players in general?

I wasn't aware it was out on Blu-ray. It must be an import.

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post #5632 of 39367 Old 03-30-2009, 02:08 PM
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I wasn't aware it was out on Blu-ray. It must be an import.

I'm pretty sure everyone is referring to the various SD-DVD editions.

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post #5633 of 39367 Old 03-30-2009, 02:15 PM
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Can someone run a check on this particular section of a blu-ray for me?

Watching Dave Matthews and Tim Reynolds: Live at Radio City Music Hall. At about the 1:29:00 (1hr29mins0sec) right after playing "Don't Drink The Water", at about 1:29:30, I lose audio completely, have to rewind/fast forward a bit, press play to regain audio. Video stream is not interrupted. The disc is brand new from Amazon, only the second time I have ever put it in the player.

Bitstreaming audio via HDMI to Integra DTR-7.8 receiver. Audio track selected was Dolby TrueHD 5.1. Tried unplugging/reseating HDMI cable, no effect. If anyone else can confirm this, I will send this via e-mail to Oppo to see what they say- don't want to bother them if it's something related to my setup.

Thanks,
Tyler
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post #5634 of 39367 Old 03-30-2009, 02:28 PM - Thread Starter
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Try starting all the way back at the beginning (yes, at Chapter 1/Title 1) and let the disc play all the way through.

Does the dropout occur again at the same "1:29:30" spot?

If yes, then this is a dropout bug with Dolby Digital TrueHD (we saw this previously with DTS-HD Master) that was likely introduced in the new firmware. If it is like the DTS-HD Master bug of yore, you can only enact the dropout by going all the way back to the beginning of the disc and let the player naturally progress to that spot.

There is a similar dropout on the Divertimenti Blu-ray when listening to track 5 (I think it is 14 or 15 seconds into this track) and decoding the Dolby Digital TrueHD soundtrack. Thankfully with the Divertimenti BD, this dropout just requires that you go back to beginning of the Chapter, rather than the beginning of the entire disc.
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post #5635 of 39367 Old 03-30-2009, 02:30 PM
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A summary, for those that might not have been reading posts as carefully for the last few days:

Yes (for the record, only cuz it's a title I bugged about in 2005), he's talking about the SD version of Moulin Rouge. As I (and rdgrimes a couple post up) have pointed out, there was a mastering error on this title that results in some sync issues with the DTS track. DD plays back fine.

A member suggested this may be an Oppo issue, and might be worth voting against EAP untiil it is fixed. I suggested that this was not the title to hinge on the BD-83, as no player I've owned (Panny, Oppo, PS3) has done right with that title.

That being said, given the reports of DTS-CD speed-up issues, the problem may in fact be MORE severe (ie., there may be a breakdown in all DTS encoding with regards to clock sync), which would mean that the issue is in fact more widespread than any issues with the Moulin disc. In other words, any other DTS SD discs may exhibit severe sync issues that cannot be resolved through normal methods.

I await the BD version of Moulin Rouge and it's a heck of an audio tour, and an extremely fun, ambitious and rediculous film that'll look downright fantastic in High Def if treated well. That said, I do hope that the DTS issues are indicative of a small bug in the FW, and will be resolved shortly.

Another DTS mastering problem disc that comes to mind is the Peter Gabriel Singles collection, where the audio on DTS is mismastered using dialog norm. that cuts 35db or something rediculous from the signal, meaning you have to CRANK the disc to get it to play in the higher resolution format (DTS track is 96/24 lossy, IIRC). That might be another fun disc for people to test, judging the volume levels between sending to your AVR via toslink versus analogue output from the Oppo.

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post #5636 of 39367 Old 03-30-2009, 02:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jsil View Post

I did some more testing with sd dvd and still don't see that much difference between Oppo 83 or Pan bd30 and Tosh A35 hd dvd. All inputs to my Onkyo sr805 then to my Pan ax200u FP.

Hard to say what's up. We know the differences are there but not everyone will see them. The larger the screen, the larger the differences should be. Make sure that all video processing is off in the Onkyo, or bypass the Onkyo for troubleshooting purposes. Since your RP is 720p, try sending it different resolutions and see what looks best. Needless to say, unless a thorough and correct calibration is done on the display, all bets are off. Settings that can and do burn out picture detail are brightness/black levels and white levels, color saturation, sharpness and DNR. The list is long. But if you're seeing substantial differences between BD and SD-DVD, you should also be seeing the differences in DVD performance. But since the image from DVD is softer, it's possible that settings in the display would be more noticeable than on BD. Try those 3 players with some old TV shows on DVD and watch for de-interlacing errors, the differences will be pretty apparent. Or use the de-interlacing tests on the included S&M disc.
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post #5637 of 39367 Old 03-30-2009, 02:55 PM
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Originally Posted by heatwave3 View Post

Just curious...any reason why so many folks have Moulin Rouge in their BD collection? If it weren't for this forum I wouldn't have even considered it worthy of watching, let alone owning. How is it so many AVSers own this disk? Is there something special about this disk to have around for testing BD players in general?

The music. Plus it's quirky, different. Baz Luhrman at his best. The only reason I used it to test is that the Can-Can scene towards the beginning of the movie has a lot of information that my old Sony ES receiver couldn't handle. I bought an Arcam and all of a sudden there was distinguishable music again. Since my Arcam doesn't do HDMI I'm now using the analog cables and making the BDP-83 do the processing. It handled the sound of the Can-Can beautifully. Just the lip sync issue.
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post #5638 of 39367 Old 03-30-2009, 02:55 PM
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I have been using an Onkyo 805 with HDMI for well over a year with NO problems. The onlys issue mechanically to me is using some really heavy buil HDMI cables with Baluns it is a strain on the mechanical connection in the back of the receiver.

Other than this and now with the BD 83, I have been clicking and swithcing all kinds of settings on the fly with no real handshakes issues, and I have been really clicking ALOT!!

I think the HDMI implementation in the Onkyo 805 is very well done...and I switch from mutiple DVD players, and input sources ...even with mutlu sources from the same players...all kinds of relays clicking in and out of the circuits..and it always works!!

I am an EE and am amazed it works as well as it does!!

Now there may be designs or implemetations of HDMI that are not well engineered, but what I have seen to date has worked and saved megabucks in cables...

Alex
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post #5639 of 39367 Old 03-30-2009, 02:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Fargus777 View Post

I wasn't aware it was out on Blu-ray. It must be an import.

It's not. I was testing the SD DVD version in DTS 5.1 for reasons stated above. It is listed as coming without a release date at Blu-Ray.com so I guess it's coming:

http://www.blu-ray.com/search/?actio...archbutton.y=0
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post #5640 of 39367 Old 03-30-2009, 03:01 PM
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Originally Posted by thrand1 View Post

Can someone run a check on this particular section of a blu-ray for me?

Watching Dave Matthews and Tim Reynolds: Live at Radio City Music Hall. At about the 1:29:00 (1hr29mins0sec) right after playing "Don't Drink The Water", at about 1:29:30, I lose audio completely, have to rewind/fast forward a bit, press play to regain audio. Video stream is not interrupted. The disc is brand new from Amazon, only the second time I have ever put it in the player.

Bitstreaming audio via HDMI to Integra DTR-7.8 receiver. Audio track selected was Dolby TrueHD 5.1. Tried unplugging/reseating HDMI cable, no effect. If anyone else can confirm this, I will send this via e-mail to Oppo to see what they say- don't want to bother them if it's something related to my setup.

Thanks,
Tyler

Wow - It happens to me at 1:29:33. Through a Denon 3808. Hitting Stop and Play gets the sound going again.
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