Official OPPO BDP-83 Owner's Thread [technical talk only] - Page 403 - AVS Forum
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post #12061 of 39362 Old 05-24-2009, 07:56 AM
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[quote=wmcclain;16517851]Your AVCHD movies have no AVCHD folder? That won't work. You'll have to make them.

AVCHD stuttering on disc: see if the next firmware helps. If it is happening from USB then it may be some other problem.

To all those who want to play downloaded mkvs and other hd material in the avchd format-try multiAVCHD-it works like a charm.
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post #12062 of 39362 Old 05-24-2009, 08:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rdgrimes View Post

In the posted example, the display was not correctly handling the color space it was sent, for whatever reason. No way to know for sure what it was doing, but such problems are usually pretty obvious. Most likely it was doing multiple conversions, and badly.

I have the Oppo connected via the supplied HDMI cable to a Denon 2309, and from there to the Panasonic 600u panel using a new Monoprice HDMI cable.

The Denon's input is set to not do any video processing on the HDMI input.
The Oppo is set to bitstream the audio, and the output resolution is set to 1080p (not auto).

The TV reports 1080p input. Originally the Oppo's color space was set to 'auto'. I connected the old DVD player via component to an extra input on the TV. I put in two copies of the same DVD (LOTR:FOTR) and compared the two players by swapping inputs on the TV. I really did not see a difference.
I even put the Oppo into 'demo' mode and compared the left & right sides. I saw very little difference, and slightly prefered the un-processed side.

When I forced the color space (remember it was set to 'auto') it was like the ABT chip woke up. There was a striking difference in quality. I can switch back and forth between 4:4:4 and 4:2:2 and the excellent quality is still present. It was only in the original 'auto' setting that something was missing. It was almost like the Oppo was set to 'Source Direct', although I know it was set to 1080p.

I have not gone back to 'auto' so I do not know if it's a problem with the HDMI handshake or just a one-time setup problem.

I have gotten PM from someone who saw the same improvement in quality by explicitly setting the color space.

If the Oppo's SD-DVD upconversion is not what you expect, try setting the color space.
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post #12063 of 39362 Old 05-24-2009, 08:19 AM
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All other things being equal, changing between YCbCr 4:4:4, 4:2:2 and RGB shouldn't make a visible difference. There must be something happening that you are missing or haven't determined yet. Take the Denon out of the picture (connect -83 to Panny) and see what happens. Also, (a guess) does the Panny maybe switch to a different display mode when given a certain res input or type of input? And how are you calibrating?

larry

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post #12064 of 39362 Old 05-24-2009, 08:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PooperScooper View Post

All other things being equal, changing between YCbCr 4:4:4, 4:2:2 and RGB shouldn't make a visible difference. There must be something happening that you are missing or haven't determined yet.

larry

Also, I don't think there is particular magic (or handicap) about Auto color space. As far as I know it picks YCbCr 4:4:4 for HDMI connections and RGB Video for DVI.

Setting explicit color space is a good idea so you know for certain what it being used (your receiver or display could be making a crazy response during auto negotiation).

As always, calibrate when making these changes.

-Bill
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post #12065 of 39362 Old 05-24-2009, 08:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vlubbers View Post

If you optically zoom an image into a smaller space on your screen then the pixel density to display the image increases. If you let OPPO do the 1/2 zoom then the black bars eat pixels and the density of the displayed image is unchanged. There are workarounds but they are not cost effective and they all require optics. My use of the term density may not be ideal. Enjoy the holiday weekend.

That's what I would think as well. So, by that rationale, if useing the 1/2 Zoom on the -83 to make the picture look better/smaller, the only reason it does look better, is because the negative artifacts of the picture are only half the size they were before... but then the whole picture is half the size too.
As you point out as well, other options are available via external optics, but wouldn't be very cost effective.

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post #12066 of 39362 Old 05-24-2009, 08:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wmcclain View Post

Also, I don't think there is particular magic (or handicap) about Auto color space. As far as I know it picks YCbCr for HDMI connections and RGB Video for DVI.

Setting explicit color space is a good idea so you know for certain what it being used (your receiver or display could be making a crazy response during auto negotiation).

As always, calibrate when making these changes.

-Bill

Yes. And I amended my post adding some suggestions and questions.

larry

Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work. -- Thomas Alva Edison
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post #12067 of 39362 Old 05-24-2009, 08:36 AM
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[quote=zrdb;16518923]
Quote:
Originally Posted by wmcclain View Post

Your AVCHD movies have no AVCHD folder? That won't work. You'll have to make them.

AVCHD stuttering on disc: see if the next firmware helps. If it is happening from USB then it may be some other problem.

To all those who want to play downloaded mkvs and other hd material in the avchd format-try multiAVCHD-it works like a charm.

Just wanted to reply "what the hell is multiAVCHD", but checked with Google first and found pretty interesting site:
http://multiavchd.deanbg.com/

I definatly will try it, but as I said yesterday, I would pay additional 100$ to Oppo if they could do BDP83 with NTFS support. This way I would be able to play m2ts files without additional multiAVCHD programm to run.
Thanks for the idea anyway.
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post #12068 of 39362 Old 05-24-2009, 08:38 AM
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I have been reading this thread for several weeks and awaiting my invite to purchase. In the interim, I would like to make sure I am able to maximize both video and audio performance of the BDP 83 (once I get it) and would appreciate some guidance on hooking up. My set up is Pioneer Pro 111FD, Harman Kardon AVR 630. The AVR does not have HDMI inputs. The AVR does have MC analogs (which I currently do not use). From what I've read the suggested hookup would be simple for the video -- HDMI straight to the 111; I'm a little confused re the audio: Seems that folks are suggesting using the MC analogs with standard RCA cables? Would I also use a coax digital hookup and if so, I'm guessing the BDP would decide which signal to send (digital or analog). Please let me know if I'm on the right track or missing something. Thanks.
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post #12069 of 39362 Old 05-24-2009, 08:51 AM
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You need the multichannel analog connection to get the full benefit of the new audio options. Coaxial digital will work fine for DVD, but it will only give you a lossy "core" track from the new Blu-ray formats (not bad, but not as good as it can be). All of the BDP-83's outputs are active all the time, so you can pick which to use by picking which input you use on the receiver.

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Beta tester: BDP-83 / BDP-80
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post #12070 of 39362 Old 05-24-2009, 08:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gonk View Post

You need the multichannel analog connection to get the full benefit of the new audio options. Coaxial digital will work fine for DVD, but it will only give you a lossy "core" track from the new Blu-ray formats (not bad, but not as good as it can be). All of the BDP-83's outputs are active all the time, so you can pick which to use by picking which input you use on the receiver.

thank you. so, then, the MC analogs for BDs and coax for old dvds; what about simply playing CDs --
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post #12071 of 39362 Old 05-24-2009, 08:53 AM
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Does that possibly mean that more Oppo 83 Users are spending more time this Holiday weekend "walkin' the walk" and less time "talkin the talk?"
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post #12072 of 39362 Old 05-24-2009, 09:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Smarty-pants View Post

So he would be watching with black bars around all sides, and a smaller picture do to the 1/2 zoom????

Quote:
Originally Posted by Smarty-pants View Post

That's what I would think as well. So, by that rationale, if useing the 1/2 Zoom on the -83 to make the picture look better/smaller, the only reason it does look better, is because the negative artifacts of the picture are only half the size they were before... but then the whole picture is half the size too.
As you point out as well, other options are available via external optics, but wouldn't be very cost effective.

Yes, I use 1/2x zoom and watch with black bars on all sides. All I know is that most SD DVD looks significantly better on my projector & 106" screen this way. Yes, the picture is smaller, but it's still larger than my 58" plasma and the quality improvement is worth it. At 106", I just don't see how people enjoy SD DVD - even with the Oppo's excellent upconverting capabilities. Maybe the very best reference titles look OK, but the majority do not at that size. The 1/2x zoom is a convenient way to make SD DVD tolerable again.
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post #12073 of 39362 Old 05-24-2009, 09:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PooperScooper View Post

All other things being equal, changing between YCbCr 4:4:4, 4:2:2 and RGB shouldn't make a visible difference. There must be something happening that you are missing or haven't determined yet. Take the Denon out of the picture (connect -83 to Panny) and see what happens. Also, (a guess) does the Panny maybe switch to a different display mode when given a certain res input or type of input? And how are you calibrating?

larry


After reading his post I decided to "play" with the color space setting, and I think he is right. Example: with CS on auto and set to 720p my HD72 did not impress, there was some studder and overall lack of detail compared to 1080p/24 or 1080p/60. This is odd because the Xbox 360 is noticeably better outputting 720p than 1080p to the HD72. I forced 4:4:4 and 30bit and the 720p signal "woke up" and looks stunning, noticeably better than 1080p/24/60. I would expect this behavior because there is one less processing step, taking the HD72's processing out of the picture.
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post #12074 of 39362 Old 05-24-2009, 09:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bbar View Post

Does anyone know whether the Oppo automatically duplicates the surrounds onto the Surround Backs when decoding DTS-HD MA 5.1 titles onto 7.1 systems either analog or HDMI (LPCM) like the Panasonics and Pioneers?

Thanks,

Quote:
Originally Posted by nathan_h View Post

Was going to say read the FAQ but I guess it's not there. Answer is, yes, anyone (or someone) knows. The Oppo does not do that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gonk View Post

At present, the answer is no. I've asked about this some, and OPPO has said that they want to work on something along these lines once they are sure they've got decoding 100% solid and any priority bugs resolved.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bbar View Post

Actually I hope they don't as this is a real thorn in Panasonic and Pioneer player owners sides that have 7.1 systems as it forces the back two speakers to be active even if folk don't want them to be for DTS HD MA 5.1 titles and also stops us from using THX cinema select 2 or PLIIxMovie matrixing of the surround backs on our AVR should we so choose for DTS-HD MA 5.1 titles!

May have to sell the Pioneer and get an Oppo !

Thanks for the feedback, it is much appreciated.

youre all wrong. i have played dts ma 5.1 titles and i get sound out of my back speakers using analog outs. it does it with both MA and DTS core sources. if you look back on my posts from a few pages ago, this has already been discussed.
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post #12075 of 39362 Old 05-24-2009, 09:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert Cook View Post

I'm not sure what you're talking about here, but remember that the LFE channel is NOT the subwoofer channel. The BDP-83 correctly gives the LFE channel the +10 dB bias that it is designed to have, and this is reflected in the player's subwoofer output. The maximum potential signal level coming out of the BDP-83's subwoofer output is comparable to that of its other analog outputs, and is therefore safe for virtually all analog inputs. If the BDP-83 did not handle the LFE channel correctly, then the problem would not be fixable outside of the player; however, this is moot because the BDP-83 does handle the LFE channel and bass management correctly.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with the BDP-83's analog multichannel subwoofer output--it is working exactly as designed, and the design is fundamentally correct. If another player/processor/receiver outputs a hotter signal, then I question whether this other device works correctly and whether it produces a safe signal to use with home audio equipment.




youre wrong. people have already posted oppo's response in this thread many pages back and they say that the LFE channel DOES need to be boosted by 10db, either in your receiver or in the oppo. The oppo does NOT add a +10db bias. incorrect information can be headed off at the pass in this thread by reading back a few hundred pages or doing a search.
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post #12076 of 39362 Old 05-24-2009, 10:40 AM
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Originally Posted by dtrell View Post

youre wrong. people have already posted oppo's response in this thread many pages back and they say that the LFE channel DOES need to be boosted by 10db, either in your receiver or in the oppo. The oppo does NOT add a +10db bias. incorrect information can be headed off at the pass in this thread by reading back a few hundred pages or doing a search.

Time out, guys. I think you are both saying the same thing. The Oppo outputs LFE at the same level as the other channels - in other words, 10db lower than the level it's designed to be played. LFE must be boosted by 10db downstream somewhere, in the processor or at the subwoofer itself.

When doing bass management, the Oppo drops the SW output another 5db. LFE is now -5db in relation to the other channels and redirected bass is -15db compared to the other channels. If you look inside the SW output itself, LFE is +10db in relation to the redirected bass. When you boost the output by 15db later on, redirected bass ends up at the same level as the other channels and LFE ends up +10db, as it should. This is all by-the-book analog LFE/bass management processing.
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post #12077 of 39362 Old 05-24-2009, 10:51 AM
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Originally Posted by jope05 View Post

thank you. so, then, the MC analogs for BDs and coax for old dvds; what about simply playing CDs --

I am using the MCH outputs to my Arcam AVR350. Is there a reason why I need to also run digital coax for DVD?
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post #12078 of 39362 Old 05-24-2009, 10:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jkozlow3 View Post

Yes, I use 1/2x zoom and watch with black bars on all sides. All I know is that most SD DVD looks significantly better on my projector & 106" screen this way. Yes, the picture is smaller, but it's still larger than my 58" plasma and the quality improvement is worth it. At 106", I just don't see how people enjoy SD DVD - even with the Oppo's excellent upconverting capabilities. Maybe the very best reference titles look OK, but the majority do not at that size. The 1/2x zoom is a convenient way to make SD DVD tolerable again.

As mentioned in an earlier post, big can look good with SD DVD.
Still not as good as BR, but good.

eg - anamorphic lens +/- other options like external processor, calibration, masking, viewing distance, lighting, etc.

I was surprised how good some SD titles look with all the extra tune ups.


Mike
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post #12079 of 39362 Old 05-24-2009, 11:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kmramos View Post

I am using the MCH outputs to my Arcam AVR350. Is there a reason why I need to also run digital coax for DVD?

The Oppo DTS Essential decoder does not support DTS-ES or DTS 96/24. So, if you need those features, you have to bitstream to a legacy DTS decoder.

Also, if better bass management and EQ in your processor or the ability to apply DSPs to digital inputs improves the quality of the sound in your room, then that would be a reason as well.
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post #12080 of 39362 Old 05-24-2009, 11:02 AM
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Originally Posted by dtrell View Post

youre wrong. people have already posted oppo's response in this thread many pages back

No, I'm not wrong. If OPPO customer support contradicted anything I said, then they need to speak with their engineering staff for clarification.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dtrell View Post

and they say that the LFE channel DOES need to be boosted by 10db, either in your receiver or in the oppo.

The LFE channel always needs to be 10 dB higher than the redirected bass from the other channels at the subwoofer output (as well as 10 dB higher than the other channels when reproduced, but that's a separate topic). This is what bass management must do in either the player or the receiver, yes, but I was talking about the BDP-83's multichannel analog subwoofer output level, which includes an LFE channel that is 10 dB higher than the redirected bass.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dtrell View Post

The oppo does NOT add a +10db bias.

On the contrary, it does have a +10 bias for the LFE channel. This function is internal and invisible to the user. If it didn't, then many action movies would be audibly bass-deficient on my system, but they are not. Additionally, adjusting the subwoofer trim control could not fix such a deficiency because then the bass redirected from the other channels would be too heavy. This is known as the "LFE bug" which a number of players and receivers have been known to have, but as far as I can tell the BDP-83 is not one of them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dtrell View Post

incorrect information can be headed off at the pass in this thread by reading back a few hundred pages or doing a search.

The information I've presented is correct, and I've been very careful to distinguish between the LFE channel and subwoofer channel/output, which are different things. People have been complaining that the BDP-83's analog subwoofer output level is lower than that of most other players/processors, and I explained why and what to do about it in a number of posts. Its internal handling of the 10 dB LFE bias is another topic altogether.
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post #12081 of 39362 Old 05-24-2009, 11:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert Cook View Post

The information I've presented is correct, and I've been very careful to distinguish between the LFE channel and subwoofer channel/output, which are different things. People have been complaining that the BDP-83's analog subwoofer output is lower than that of most other players/processors, and I explained why and what to do about it in a number of posts. Its internal handling of the 10 dB LFE bias is another subject altogether.

the LFE channel...notice i didnt say subwoofer channel...the LFE channel needs to be boosted by 10db either in your receiver or by adjusting the trim in the player for BOTH the oppo 83 and the pioneer 51...i have both and they both work the same way. period. neither of them provide internal 10db processing of the channel, they take it directly as recorded on the disc (-10db). the oppo engineers have already responded to other users in this thread. i dont see why you would want to contradict thepeople that designed the player. i am using MCH out and I have my receiver set to boost the SW input 12db actually. also, other haveposted in this thread thatif you have some speakers set to SMALL for bass redirect that you actually need to boost the signal by 15db, however oppo maintains you need a 10db boost across the board.
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post #12082 of 39362 Old 05-24-2009, 11:09 AM
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dtrell - Is there anything Robert Cook is saying that you find incorrect? It looks spot on to me. It's also not inconsistent with what you have written.
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post #12083 of 39362 Old 05-24-2009, 11:17 AM
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Originally Posted by BIslander View Post

dtrell - Is there anything Robert Cook is saying that you find incorrect? It looks spot on to me.


From the Unofficial FAQ........


"Multi-channel analog output is more complicated because you have your choice of whether bass steering is done inside the OPPO (setting some speakers to "small") or inside your receiver (setting all speakers to "large" in the OPPO). Again, the 10dB LFE boost has to happen before steered bass gets mixed in.

In addition, it is not always the case that receivers will offer their own 10dB boost for LFE coming in on the multi-channel analog inputs.

And so depending on where you want the work to be done, and what your receiver offers, you may have to experiment a bit to find the combo of settings that does the right thing.

I'm afraid there's no way to make this sound easy. Folks doing multi-channel analog have to experiment and check."
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post #12084 of 39362 Old 05-24-2009, 11:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZombieTheater View Post

After reading his post I decided to "play" with the color space setting, and I think he is right. Example: with CS on auto and set to 720p my HD72 did not impress, there was some studder and overall lack of detail compared to 1080p/24 or 1080p/60. This is odd because the Xbox 360 is noticeably better outputting 720p than 1080p to the HD72. I forced 4:4:4 and 30bit and the 720p signal "woke up" and looks stunning, noticeably better than 1080p/24/60. I would expect this behavior because there is one less processing step, taking the HD72's processing out of the picture.

That's why I said "all other things being equal". You've introduced a new display, and I assume it is not a 1080p native res display (like the original poster - not 1080p). Using extra bits for video processing for scaling helps and so does 10bit vs 8bit output. However, that is a lot more than just switching between YCbCr 4:4:4, 4:2:2 or RGB. To figure out why things work as seen more details on each end need to be known, e.g. when set to Auto, what was the display seeing? Is it possible RGB was being sent and when the display sees RGB it interprets is at PC video levels as opposed to studio video levels. Is the Oppo somehow output PC levels? (I would hope you'd have to force it to do that).


larry

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post #12085 of 39362 Old 05-24-2009, 11:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by laserjock II View Post

From the Unofficial FAQ........


"Multi-channel analog output is more complicated because you have your choice of whether bass steering is done inside the OPPO (setting some speakers to "small") or inside your receiver (setting all speakers to "large" in the OPPO). Again, the 10dB LFE boost has to happen before steered bass gets mixed in.

In addition, it is not always the case that receivers will offer their own 10dB boost for LFE coming in on the multi-channel analog inputs.

And so depending on where you want the work to be done, and what your receiver offers, you may have to experiment a bit to find the combo of settings that does the right thing.

I'm afraid there's no way to make this sound easy. Folks doing multi-channel analog have to experiment and check."

Sorry, but I don't understand your point in this post. Yes, analog is more complicated than digital and some receivers make it difficult to apply the needed boost. But, the Oppo does what it does (and properly, it would appear) regardless of the processor being fed.

Robert Cook's explanation is correct to the best of my knowledge about analog processing and bass management. I believe dtrell is actually in agreement, but doesn't recognize it.
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post #12086 of 39362 Old 05-24-2009, 11:42 AM
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Sorry, but I don't understand your point in this post. Yes, analog is more complicated than digital and some receivers make it difficult to apply the needed boost. But, the Oppo does what it does (and properly, it would appear) regardless of the processor being fed.

Robert Cook's explanation is correct to the best of my knowledge about analog processing and bass management. I believe dtrell is actually in agreement, but doesn't recognize it.

I guess I shouldn't have quoted you but simply posted.

I was trying to find where there was an internal boost of +10db on MCH Analogs.
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post #12087 of 39362 Old 05-24-2009, 11:45 AM
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I connected the BDP-83 yesterday and all seems well. The latest firmware was already installed out of the box. I have connected it three ways to my AVM-20: 5.1 analog for blu-ray to get the latest codecs, digital coax for DVD and optical for CD. That way I can apply different DSP processing for each. The AVM-20 analog inputs has bass management and THX processing to 7.1.

I will have to experiment to see if the LFE needs to be boosted as per the posts today. Watched Valkrade last night, but the sound track was nothing special so don't think I would have noticed. This whole area seems problematic. If its not handled properly I think its difficult to fix. If I boost it 10db in either the player or the processor, then won't it be 10db too hot for other formats such as DVD-Audio or SACD?

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post #12088 of 39362 Old 05-24-2009, 11:56 AM
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Originally Posted by Kabillyhop View Post

I connected the BDP-83 yesterday and all seems well. The latest firmware was already installed out of the box. I have connected it three ways to my AVM-20: 5.1 analog for blu-ray to get the latest codecs, digital coax for DVD and optical for CD. That way I can apply different DSP processing for each. The AVM-20 analog inputs has bass management and THX processing to 7.1.

I will have to experiment to see if the LFE needs to be boosted as per the posts today. Watched Valkrade last night, but the sound track was nothing special so don't think I would have noticed. This whole area seems problematic. If its not handled properly I think its difficult to fix. If I boost it 10db in either the player or the processor, then won't it be 10db too hot for other formats such as DVD-Audio or SACD?

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...40#post8855640
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post #12089 of 39362 Old 05-24-2009, 11:59 AM
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Originally Posted by laserjock II View Post

I was trying to find where there was an internal boost of +10db on MCH Analogs.

With digital, the LFE boost happens in the processor. The digital software takes care of everything transparent to the user. With analog, the user has to apply the boost in the processor or at the subwoofer itself. Bass management adds another layer of complexity to the process.

There's an excellent explanation of the theory and how it all works in the link you just provided. Is there something there or about the Oppo that is still unclear?
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post #12090 of 39362 Old 05-24-2009, 12:04 PM
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If I boost it 10db in either the player or the processor, then won't it be 10db too hot for other formats such as DVD-Audio or SACD?

If you do the boost in the player, you defeat the whole purpose of recording LFE -10db in the first place. So, it is properly done later in the process.

DVD-Audio and SACD also need the 10db boost.
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