Official OPPO BDP-83 Owner's Thread [technical talk only] - Page 660 - AVS Forum
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post #19771 of 40014 Old 08-20-2009, 11:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GSB View Post

All of this is assuming that your display treats the 4:2:2 colorspace correctly.

My Sony Bravia LCD screws it up.

Likewise with the Pioneer 500M (presumably the 600M too). Plus it improperly detects the RGB range on the HDMI ports.
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post #19772 of 40014 Old 08-20-2009, 11:51 AM
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Originally Posted by Makaveli Tha Don View Post

wow, now THAT is how you elaobrate I was aware that nothing yet is recorded with deep color, but having a display that DOES support 36 bit color it seems so against the grain that I would get better color accuracy by NOT using it. I mean like i could absolutely believe if there was just flat out no discernable visual difference between the two at all, but to be able to visually see better color accuracy by not utilizing it blows my mind. Is that an abnormal outcome? Like i mean do i have a display problem or setting wrong that I should look into, or is it not uncommon at all for a 36 bit capable display to look better by not even using it?

If you are getting poorer quality video with 36-bit then something is mishandling the 36-bit video stream -- either your display or your AVR between the Oppo and the display.

I know the data the Oppo is putting out. Its 36-bit output is "correct" and both variations of 30 and 24-bit output are derived directly from that "correct" 36-bit stream.

So what could be going wrong? Well your display most likely does NOT have a 36-bit display element -- e.g., the individual LCD elements or plasma elements don't have that fine a step size. So at some point in its internal processing the display needs to reduce the 36-bit input stream to less than that (commonly 30-bit on better quality, modern displays) before the pixels can light up. By the way, this is another reason why "Deep Color" yields only modest improvements -- the display elements aren't there yet even in "Deep Color" displays!

And your display may be doing a poor job of that -- for example, no Dithering in its internal video processing at that point. Indeed your so-called Deep Color display may be doing nothing but lip-service to "Deep Color": Merely truncating the 36-bit input to 24-bit *ON INPUT*! If it can accept 36-bit they can market it as Deep Color, even if it does a crappy job of USING the 36-bit video.

So letting the Oppo do that task gets you a better result because the display doesn't have the chance to screw it up.

Or your display may just be mishandling the low order bits of the 36-bit input. Or your AVR may be screwing them up.
--Bob

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post #19773 of 40014 Old 08-20-2009, 11:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by robertazimmerman View Post

Use a DVD-Audio burning program such as Cirlinca DVD Audio Solo ($35) or DiscWelder by Minatoka ($99).

Roberta

Guess you missed my "test results" post back here:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...=#post17023497
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post #19774 of 40014 Old 08-20-2009, 12:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by robertazimmerman View Post

Followup to my previous posting about outputting HDMI audio to a receiver's analog inputs.

I've had extensive discussions with the manufacturers of the above products and neither item converts DTS-MA nor Dolby TrueHD to LPCM. The products will output these codecs to their HDMI connections, but will only pass LPCM through the analog outputs.

So, if the analog inputs on your receiver are currently being using by another component, and you are looking to connect your BDP-83s to analog inputs on their receivers using HDMI outs, you'll need to keep looking. I haven't found a solution yet.

Bob Pariseau suggested using an analog switch box, but if I'm not mistaken, that would likely entail manual switching every time. Is that right, Bob?

Just to pile on with the other replies, what exactly are you trying to accomplish with these devices that convert HDMI audio to analog?

Are you not happy with the quality of the Oppo's multi-channel analog outputs? If so, it's very unlikely that the boxes you're looking at are going to be even as good as the Oppo.

As has been stated numerous times, the solution to your situation is:

a) Buy a new receiver that either has enough multi-channel analog inputs to suit your needs or has enough HDMI inputs to handle your sources.

or

b) Buy a 7.1 analog switcher such as this one from Zektor that will allow you to connect both your 980 and BDP-83 to your existing receiver. The Zektor has a remote control, so you can program a universal remote to switch it automatically for you.
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post #19775 of 40014 Old 08-20-2009, 12:14 PM
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Exactly. It's often easier to just address the actual problem than trying to cobble together complicated workarounds.
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post #19776 of 40014 Old 08-20-2009, 12:17 PM
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Thanks for the excellent explanation of color bit depth and how all that works. It's a very confusing topic for many, and your real-world, common-sense approach is very, very helpful.
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post #19777 of 40014 Old 08-20-2009, 12:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wmcclain View Post

It's worth clearing the persistent storage anyway. Try the procedure shown here:
What do I do if a Blu-ray disc will not load or play, or if it freezes the player?

If that doesn't help, upgrade to the experimental firmware.

-Bill

I upgraded the firmware with no sucess. I'll try this procedure when I get home. Thanx
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post #19778 of 40014 Old 08-20-2009, 12:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Pariseau View Post

...That is, you can't invent video information that wasn't on the disc in the first place....

Bob, isn't that exactly what 'upconversion' does for DVDs, and what algorithms are used in applications like Photoshop or Genuine Fractals? If one pixel is green and the one alongside it is yellow, the application would ramp the two colors in as many pixels as you need to generate the higher resolution. I always assumed that this is what was done for DVDs to output up to 1080p.
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post #19779 of 40014 Old 08-20-2009, 01:01 PM
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I would say that upscaling isn't inventing data - it's interpolating data. And it's because interpolating isn't as good as having original data on hand that true HD sources are preferable over scaled-up SD sources.

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post #19780 of 40014 Old 08-20-2009, 01:27 PM
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Gonk, per your recommendation, after trimming the speaker level for analogy outs, you suggested to turn the BDP-83 OFF and turn it back on. Why need such step?
Kwok
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post #19781 of 40014 Old 08-20-2009, 01:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Hef View Post

Bob, isn't that exactly what 'upconversion' does for DVDs, and what algorithms are used in applications like Photoshop or Genuine Fractals? If one pixel is green and the one alongside it is yellow, the application would ramp the two colors in as many pixels as you need to generate the higher resolution. I always assumed that this is what was done for DVDs to output up to 1080p.

Color interpolation, and frankly any other image "enhancement" processing, simply adjusts an image according to your preconceptions about what the image is supposed to look like.

For example, ramping between two colors would be wrong if the color change actually represented a hard edge at either pixel. The idea that the colors should ramp is just an assumption about what's really going on. It will work well in some cases and not so well in others.

Anyway, this is off topic for this thread, but the thing to understand is that in the long run, what shows up on your screen will be no better than what's on the disc to begin with. It might be worse (if the video processing damages the image), but across a normal range of real-world content, it won't be better. This is why SD-DVD is so tough to get right. There's no margin for error in the processing. Any mistake will likely be seen. Whereas all the extra info content in Blu-Ray makes it more "forgiving".

36-bit processing allows retention of rounding information and thus improves the odds that your video processing is not damaging the video stream.
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post #19782 of 40014 Old 08-20-2009, 01:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kwok lau View Post

Gonk, per your recommendation, after trimming the speaker level for analogy outs, you suggested to turn the BDP-83 OFF and turn it back on. Why need such step?
Kwok

Turning the '83 off actually saves the settings you made. Before turning it off, if you lost power, you would lose the settings.
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post #19783 of 40014 Old 08-20-2009, 01:58 PM
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Originally Posted by gsr View Post

Just to pile on with the other replies, what exactly are you trying to accomplish with these devices that convert HDMI audio to analog?

Are you not happy with the quality of the Oppo's multi-channel analog outputs? If so, it's very unlikely that the boxes you're looking at are going to be even as good as the Oppo.

As has been stated numerous times, the solution to your situation is:

a) Buy a new receiver that either has enough multi-channel analog inputs to suit your needs or has enough HDMI inputs to handle your sources.

or

b) Buy a 7.1 analog switcher such as this one from Zektor that will allow you to connect both your 980 and BDP-83 to your existing receiver. The Zektor has a remote control, so you can program a universal remote to switch it automatically for you.

Yes, thank you. I've already stated why I want such a device and both of your solutions have already been detailed.....

R
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post #19784 of 40014 Old 08-20-2009, 02:11 PM
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Man, I can't believe Roberta you're still looking for reasons not to buy this player...!

I owned the Zektor, it was a tremendous product, did the trick without needing to manually switch between multiple analogue inputs (you taught it IR commands). Since you refuse to get rid of your 980, and refuse to upgrade your receiver/pre-amp, it's the best solution available to allow multiple analogue multichanel sources and allow you to have the 980 and BD-83 coexist. Sold it when I got my Integra 9.8.

As you are now, I think, the person who has been in this thread the longest without buying the damn thing already, I encourage you to do so...

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post #19785 of 40014 Old 08-20-2009, 03:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by robertazimmerman View Post

Yes, thank you. I've already stated why I want such a device and both of your solutions have already been detailed.....

Maybe I missed the post where you explained why you want an HDMI to analog convertor device for the Oppo, cause I still have no idea why you would want such a thing IF you'd be using it with the BDP-83. Sorry, but it just makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.

And yes, both of the solutions I listed have already been mentioned (as I thought the context of my post made clear by saying I'm "piling on"). I restated them again because I thought it might help drive the point home that pursuing these HDMI to analog convertors is both a waste of money (in that the Oppo already does the same thing, but most likely better than those devices) AND they don't solve your problem of only having 1 multichannel input on your current receiver.

[Edit:]
Ok, I looked back at your posts that seemed relevant to this sub-thread and I still have NO idea why you want one of these HDMI to analog audio convertors. I get why you want to keep the 980 in the system (support of some lossless audio formats that the BDP-83 doesn't support, etc. - I had remembered that so reading back didn't give me any new info), but that doesn't translate to needing an HDMI to analog audio convertor. If you want to buy one of those devices, it's your money wasted so I really don't care - we're collectively just trying to help you come up with a solution that will actually solve the problem you're looking to solve.
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post #19786 of 40014 Old 08-20-2009, 03:12 PM
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Originally Posted by sharkshark View Post

Man, I can't believe Roberta you're still looking for reasons not to buy this player...!

I owned the Zektor, it was a tremendous product, did the trick without needing to manually switch between multiple analogue inputs (you taught it IR commands). Since you refuse to get rid of your 980, and refuse to upgrade your receiver/pre-amp, it's the best solution available to allow multiple analogue multichanel sources and allow you to have the 980 and BD-83 coexist. Sold it when I got my Integra 9.8.

As you are now, I think, the person who has been in this thread the longest without buying the damn thing already, I encourage you to do so...

LOL.. it's has if she wants a reason to hate this player, but knows that it will be had in the end.
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post #19787 of 40014 Old 08-20-2009, 03:34 PM
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Bob, thank you for all the time you put in here to write such clearly worded explanations of many things. In addition to good writing skills, your posts consistently show good judgment into how deeply to explain why things work as they do. For example, your explanation of Deep Color gave just enough info about what dithering does and why it helps, without taking us all into EE school (where some of us--me included--would glaze over and begin to drool uncomprehendingly). You also avoid stepping into any snits or flame wars, which takes wisdom.

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post #19788 of 40014 Old 08-20-2009, 03:40 PM
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I'm on the experimental FW (0805) and noticed today I'm unable to switch on the subtitles during the movie. Hitting the subtitles button brings up the box but won't let me select anything.

I was able to set them in the movie menu, but just wanted to confirm this bug before I report it.
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post #19789 of 40014 Old 08-20-2009, 03:47 PM
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We are all getting to know Bob, pretty well. I hope to graduate with my A/V Degree from BOBA/V University- in the .........spring of 2019--

Quote:
Originally Posted by pbarach View Post

Bob, thank you for all the time you put in here to write such clearly worded explanations of many things. In addition to good writing skills, your posts consistently show good judgment into how deeply to explain why things work as they do. For example, your explanation of Deep Color gave just enough info about what dithering does and why it helps, without taking us all into EE school (where some of us--me included--would glaze over and begin to drool uncomprehendingly). You also avoid stepping into any snits or flame wars, which takes wisdom.

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post #19790 of 40014 Old 08-20-2009, 03:59 PM
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We are all getting to know Bob, pretty well. I hope to graduate with my A/V Degree from BOBA/V University- in the .........spring of 2019--


Wonder if Bob-U allows transfer credits...? Hmmmm.....
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post #19791 of 40014 Old 08-20-2009, 04:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Pariseau View Post

If you are getting poorer quality video with 36-bit then something is mishandling the 36-bit video stream -- either your display or your AVR between the Oppo and the display.

I know the data the Oppo is putting out. Its 36-bit output is "correct" and both variations of 30 and 24-bit output are derived directly from that "correct" 36-bit stream.

So what could be going wrong? Well your display most likely does NOT have a 36-bit display element -- e.g., the individual LCD elements or plasma elements don't have that fine a step size. So at some point in its internal processing the display needs to reduce the 36-bit input stream to less than that (commonly 30-bit on better quality, modern displays) before the pixels can light up. By the way, this is another reason why "Deep Color" yields only modest improvements -- the display elements aren't there yet even in "Deep Color" displays!

And your display may be doing a poor job of that -- for example, no Dithering in its internal video processing at that point. Indeed your so-called Deep Color display may be doing nothing but lip-service to "Deep Color": Merely truncating the 36-bit input to 24-bit *ON INPUT*! If it can accept 36-bit they can market it as Deep Color, even if it does a crappy job of USING the 36-bit video.

So letting the Oppo do that task gets you a better result because the display doesn't have the chance to screw it up.

Or your display may just be mishandling the low order bits of the 36-bit input. Or your AVR may be screwing them up.
--Bob



Thanks for taking the time to write all that up and explain it out. Upon MUCH searching through threads about my 8G kuro 150FD display it seems that the display itself accepts 36 bit, but is only able to display at 30 bit. Well, that was really the "clearest" answer I could get out of the question anyways. Basically just what you suspected. I eye tested it by seeing if setting the oppo to output 30 bit color would give me better color accuracy than having it output 36 bit, and it indeed does. It's very very subtle. Really more of a smoothness to the colors as opposed to them to being innacurate.

We're pretty fortunate to have these guys who have put in a lot of work and a lot of research into learning and obtaining all this knowledge, and then just hand it over to us on a whim when we ask a question. Kudos to you and all the other gurus that take the time to help us out
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post #19792 of 40014 Old 08-20-2009, 04:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wrinklefree View Post

I'm on the experimental FW (0805) and noticed today I'm unable to switch on the subtitles during the movie. Hitting the subtitles button brings up the box but won't let me select anything.

I was able to set them in the movie menu, but just wanted to confirm this bug before I report it.

wrinklefree,

Do you have any other players to see if you can replicate this issue?


Respectfully,
Willie

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post #19793 of 40014 Old 08-20-2009, 04:38 PM
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Just did my first firmware update via CD to 0805. I had the latest official firmware already loaded. I changed my color space from Auto (YCbCr 4:4:4) to YCbCr 4:2:2 and Deep Color from 36 bit to Off. Recalibrated with S&M BD. I have a Panasonic 50PZ800U, I know it supports Deep Color but I don't know if it's 30 or 36 bit. I'm trying to find that one out.

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post #19794 of 40014 Old 08-20-2009, 04:42 PM
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Originally Posted by pbarach View Post

Bob, thank you for all the time you put in here to write such clearly worded explanations of many things. In addition to good writing skills, your posts consistently show good judgment into how deeply to explain why things work as they do. For example, your explanation of Deep Color gave just enough info about what dithering does and why it helps, without taking us all into EE school (where some of us--me included--would glaze over and begin to drool uncomprehendingly). You also avoid stepping into any snits or flame wars, which takes wisdom.

We here at "Bob Pariseau" thank you all for your kind words.

And anyway, the kerfuffles generated here are like nothing compared to the massive collateral damage from a well crafted faculty memo....


--Bob

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post #19795 of 40014 Old 08-20-2009, 05:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pbarach View Post

Bob, thank you for all the time you put in here to write such clearly worded explanations of many things. In addition to good writing skills, your posts consistently show good judgment into how deeply to explain why things work as they do. For example, your explanation of Deep Color gave just enough info about what dithering does and why it helps, without taking us all into EE school (where some of us--me included--would glaze over and begin to drool uncomprehendingly). You also avoid stepping into any snits or flame wars, which takes wisdom.

Awe Jeeeez, don't encourage him.
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post #19796 of 40014 Old 08-20-2009, 05:22 PM
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Originally Posted by robertazimmerman View Post

You can buy modded 980's that will do so. I wonder if "modding" is against the SACD licensing agreements, or if the agreement only pertains to the original hardware manufacturers.
R

You can buy modded BDP-83's as well...
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post #19797 of 40014 Old 08-20-2009, 07:40 PM
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I'm confused about the color space. Is there consensus that it should be on 4:2:2, or is this something that is highly display-dependent?
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post #19798 of 40014 Old 08-20-2009, 07:45 PM
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Originally Posted by RSTide View Post

I'm confused about the color space. Is there consensus that it should be on 4:2:2, or is this something that is highly display-dependent?

It is display dependent, but if the display is working correctly all the color spaces should give very similar results.

-Bill
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post #19799 of 40014 Old 08-20-2009, 07:46 PM
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I am thinking of getting the Oppo and wanted to know if I will see an improvement over my existing players. I currently have a Toshiba XA2 for SD DVD and a PS3 and Pioneer BDP-51FD for Blu-Ray movies. I was going to sell both of these to get the Oppo. Should I do the trade? I never had any problem with either machine except the Pioneer being way too slow. I just want improved PQ. I do love the PS3 for it's speed and reliability. This thing plays any disc in any format without a hitch. I am wondering if the Oppo is better than the PS3 for Blu-Ray picture quality and better than the Toshiba Xa2 for SD DVD. My current PJ is a Sharp but I just bought a JVC RS2.

I want to hear opinions from people who don't have a dog in the fight.
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post #19800 of 40014 Old 08-20-2009, 07:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Alex solomon View Post

I am thinking of getting the Oppo and wanted to know if I will see an improvement over my existing players. I currently have a Toshiba XA2 for SD DVD and a PS3 and Pioneer BDP-51FD for Blu-Ray movies. I was going to sell both of these to get the Oppo. Should I do the trade? I never had any problem with either machine except the Pioneer being way too slow. I just want improved PQ. I do love the PS3 for it's speed and reliability. This thing plays any disc in any format without a hitch. I am wondering if the Oppo is better than the PS3 for Blu-Ray picture quality and better than the Toshiba Xa2 for SD DVD. My current PJ is a Sharp but I just bought a JVC RS2.

For general advice see:
-Bill
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Blu Ray Players , Oppo , Oppo Bdp 83 Blu Ray Player



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