Official Panasonic DMP-BD60/80 Owners Thread - Page 170 - AVS Forum
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post #5071 of 8256 Old 12-09-2009, 10:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Just Nick View Post

Thanks for the reply, Foxbat. Here is the situation. My receiver is a Marantz 6003. It has the ability to decode everything currently in existence. However (and it's a big HOWEVER), if I let the receiver do the decoding, I cannot use the Audyssey settings it configured. I have to make a choice. Decode with the receiver and no room correction, or room correction with a pcm signal that has been decoded by the player. So there is the rub.

Any further thoughts are greatly appreciated. Thank you.

Nick

But your Marantz should still support Dolby PL IIx, right? You should be able to use PL IIx to matrix PCM 5.1 into 7.1. Why do you want player to do it?
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post #5072 of 8256 Old 12-09-2009, 10:38 AM
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Originally Posted by slimoli View Post

Isn't this all the way around ? If you use the receiver to decode (bitstream from the player) you should have the room correction.

You would think that, wouldn't you? My particular receiver does not have the processing power to do both. I cannot decode the various formats from a bitstream signal AND apply Audyssey settings. I must choose either or. Right now, room correction is clearly preferable, so I am outputting PCM. But I am trying to see if I can get the player to do more so I can have both.

Nick
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post #5073 of 8256 Old 12-09-2009, 10:43 AM
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Originally Posted by Foxbat121 View Post

But your Marantz should still support Dolby PL IIx, right? You should be able to use PL IIx to matrix PCM 5.1 into 7.1. Why do you want player to do it?

You guys are too fast! And thanks for your input as well, Chris. I guess what I am just starting to realize is that I have been lumping "processing" in with "decoding". I have been assuming (and you know what happens when you do that) that if the player outputs PCM, that is it. You can't do anything with it. But it is dawning on me that "processing" (like the PL IIx you reference) is different and can be done on an already decoded PCM signal.

I will try to verify this in the Marantz thread. Thank you both for the revelation.

Nick
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post #5074 of 8256 Old 12-09-2009, 10:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by slimoli View Post

You can get a worse/distorted audio when you matrix 5.1 in 7.1. To give you an example, when you watch a movie with a gunfire and a guy is shooting on your left side , you can feel the bullets coming from behind. I always try to keep the original audio "as is" with surround encoded material. I do like the DD Prologic II for stereo material, though. What would be nice is more movies with 7.1...

There maybe distortions but so far I haven't noticed any. A properly designed matrix processing like PL IIx or THX Select2/Ultra will do so properly. It will not matrix a sound images from sides to behind. On the other hand, remember the rear channels on a 5.1 track is really meant for speakers located between side surrounds and rear surrounds in a 7.1 setup. So, you really don't want un-processed 5.1 tracks play on a 7.1 layouts.
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post #5075 of 8256 Old 12-09-2009, 11:03 AM
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Originally Posted by boylan13 View Post

Excellent DVD upconversion with 1080p/24 output, superior Blu-ray playback with 4:4:4 color upconversion, reasonably quick load times (though not the fastest), excellent disc compatibility (with quick firmware fixes when new Blu-ray titles come out that break things), BD-Live support (though it needs an SD card), on-board decoding of DTS-HD and Dolby TrueHD to PCM, as well as full bitstreaming. The internet streaming features (YouTube, Amazon Video-on-Demand) are a nice bonus.

Basically it's a full featured player with an entry-level price. While I have played around with a couple of samples of the BD60, including doing some measurements, we did not formally review the BD60. But we did review the BD80 which has identical video performance.

-CB

Thanks Chris for the link to the BD80 review. I'm very happy with mine, I've sold Panasonic for over 20 years and they do offer the best bang for the buck and seem to be very customer oriented I even had the concierge guy at my home to replace a circuit board on my tv. Very impressed with Panasonic
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post #5076 of 8256 Old 12-09-2009, 12:23 PM
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Originally Posted by pronghorn/az View Post

He did ask, several times, with smaller fonts, and this was done out of frustration and being new I'm sure. I can feel his frustration as well as I have asked several questions also with now answer, all in regards to this player.

If no one has an answer, no one has an answer. Shouting at people won't make them answer. Rudeness is unacceptable, regardless of the cause.

I've been dealing with forums like this for about as long as they've existed on the 'net. I've never seen anyone get more or better help through rudeness. But many times I've seen rudeness get silence. Just sayin'.
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post #5077 of 8256 Old 12-09-2009, 12:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Foxbat121 View Post

It will not matrix a sound images from sides to behind. .

Sometimes it does. I watched Public Enemy yesterday and shots from the side were also reproduced from behind with a DD track. The DTS-HD, however, kept the sound on the right place since my receiver does not re-process this codec. There is another reason why I don't use the 7.1 matrix on 5.1 material; The dialogue perception is somehow reduced on my setup, maybe because too many speakers are firing at the same time. It's no big deal, just a matter of preference and nothing too scientific.

Standard Definition Causes Lung Cancer, Heart Disease, Emphysema, And May Complicate Pregnancy
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post #5078 of 8256 Old 12-09-2009, 01:53 PM
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Im guessing while were on the subject that its better to bitstream from the panny and let your AVR process it if its capable ?
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post #5079 of 8256 Old 12-09-2009, 01:57 PM
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My Panasonic S77 DVD player recently died, won't read a DVD and continually resets as if the disc was just inserted. Now I want to use this as an opportunity to get into BluRay. I have a Yamaha 659 receiver which I am very happy with however it does not decode the new audio formas in HD. My question is: Is there REALLY a noticable improvement of the HD audio versus the DD5.1/DTS formats to warrant my buying the BD80 (with analog out) as opposed to the less expensive BD60 (which should provide DD5.1/DTS to my current system)? I do not intend to upgrade my receiver for a while. Thanks for any advice.
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post #5080 of 8256 Old 12-09-2009, 02:16 PM
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I went ahead and ordered one for my projector. I hope the RGB Full option will work over DVI.
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post #5081 of 8256 Old 12-09-2009, 02:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Just Nick View Post

You would think that, wouldn't you? My particular receiver does not have the processing power to do both. I cannot decode the various formats from a bitstream signal AND apply Audyssey settings. I must choose either or. Right now, room correction is clearly preferable, so I am outputting PCM. But I am trying to see if I can get the player to do more so I can have both.

Nick

Why can't you copy your Audyssey settings, turn off Audyssey, and enter them manually?
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post #5082 of 8256 Old 12-09-2009, 02:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TAMU83 View Post

My question is: Is there REALLY a noticable improvement of the HD audio versus the DD5.1/DTS formats to warrant my buying the BD80 (with analog out) as opposed to the less expensive BD60 (which should provide DD5.1/DTS to my current system)?

I'd save a few dollars if I were you. I think this article was posted previously on this very forum topic awhile back...

http://www.hemagazine.com/node/Dolby...compressed_PCM
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post #5083 of 8256 Old 12-09-2009, 05:29 PM
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Hello,

I tried to access my youtube account on the bd60, and I got the error message "Communications error: Status-3". Does anybody know what this means. I can access the featured videos and most viewed, but not my account. Thanks for any help!
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post #5084 of 8256 Old 12-09-2009, 06:00 PM
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Originally Posted by voidpointer View Post

I went ahead and ordered one for my projector. I hope the RGB Full option will work over DVI.

Not likely. If your projector has a DVI-D input, then you can get a simple HDMI to DVI-D adapter or cable and use your HDMI output. But if your projector's DVI input is DVI-A (analog) then you will need a transcoder or signal converter like an HDFury or similar. The active signal converters convert the Y/Pb/Pr component output of the BD80 to a separate red, green and blue signal for input to the projector. Component and RGB signals are completely different in format and these signal converters are usually not too cheap.

The RGB setting on the BD80 (standard vs. enhanced) is simply for setting the RGB range range of the output, "standard" is for consumer displays and "enhanced" for PC monitors. It does not change the BD60's or BD80's component video output into an RGB output.

Some projector makers sell adapters that work specifically with their DVI or VGA inputs to allow component video inputs, but these only work because the projector actually has internal wiring/circuitry for both component (Y, Pb, Pr) and RGB inputs coming in from their jack.

You should check to see if your projector maker makes such an adapter. Probably posting in the owner's thread for your projector or in a thread for your projector brand will turn up some useful information of how to hook up component video devices to your projector.

-CB

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post #5085 of 8256 Old 12-09-2009, 06:14 PM
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What I meant to say is that my projector has a DVI-D input (yes, digital). It transcodes to analog RGB. However, it does not convert YCbCr color space when it's delivered over an HDMI/DVI-D cable, so I need the source device to output in RGB over digital. The PS3, for example, lets you choose whether you want BD movies to be output as YCbCr or RGB over HDMI, and whether to expand the RGB values to 0-255 or not. I wanted to know if the BD60 does the same thing.
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post #5086 of 8256 Old 12-09-2009, 06:20 PM
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Hey all! I just got my DMP-BD60 and I love it. I snagged it off of Amazon.com for $128.99 with free two day shipping.

I have the following setup:
Panasonic TC-P50G10 Plasma
Denon AVR-1909 Receiver
Panasonic DMP-BD60

I have noticed that the audio and video is not synced up properly. I went in through my receiver and toyed with the Audio Delay setting, and after I changed it to a 130ms delay, it seems to be better. I was wondering if anyone else has a similar setup and has a better setting to use. I have not upgraded the firmware yet for my player, and was wondering if that would make a difference or not. Thanks!
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post #5087 of 8256 Old 12-09-2009, 06:33 PM
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So did you increase the delay or reduce it? If the TV is doing a lot of processing the image will lag behind the audio. You can either increase the audio delay, reduce the image processing, or try the TV's game mode.
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post #5088 of 8256 Old 12-09-2009, 06:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by voidpointer View Post

What I meant to say is that my projector has a DVI-D input (yes, digital). It transcodes to analog RGB. However, it does not convert YCbCr color space when it's delivered over an HDMI/DVI-D cable, so I need the source device to output in RGB over digital. The PS3, for example, lets you choose whether you want BD movies to be output as YCbCr or RGB over HDMI, and whether to expand the RGB values to 0-255 or not. I wanted to know if the BD60 does the same thing.

Setting RGB to "Enhanced" delivers 0-255 RGB values so it is most likely what you need for your projector. But run some test patterns to make sure your blacks don't get clipped (and no, I'm not being racist).

-CB

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post #5089 of 8256 Old 12-09-2009, 06:40 PM
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guys.. i'm now torn between the sony bdp-s360 and panasonic dmp-bd60. I just had a test at the store yesterday using the same 40" LCD tv and i was surprised that the sony outperforms in terms of DVD playback (clips from Pearl Harbor and some Eric Clapton concert bits). the difference was quite noticeable. I'm surprised as i read so much rave reviews about the bd60 online. but i was just wondering if it was a fair trial given that we didnt mess around with the settings too much, only that both were outputting 1080i to the LCD.

then i went to the sony shop to try the s360 again and the results were horrible using Michael jackson's live concert DVD (recorded in 4:3 i think) on a 40" LCD. really horrible.

i'm utterly confused now... can anyone explain my observations?
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post #5090 of 8256 Old 12-09-2009, 06:51 PM
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Originally Posted by voidpointer View Post

So did you increase the delay or reduce it? If the TV is doing a lot of processing the image will lag behind the audio. You can either increase the audio delay, reduce the image processing, or try the TV's game mode.

I'm thinking I increased it by 130ms. It didn't give a plus or minus value when adjusting the delay, just a value of 0 to 200 ms.
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post #5091 of 8256 Old 12-09-2009, 08:05 PM
 
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Originally Posted by bttfiii View Post

guys.. i'm now torn between the sony bdp-s360 and panasonic dmp-bd60. I just had a test at the store yesterday using the same 40" LCD tv and i was surprised that the sony outperforms in terms of DVD playback (clips from Pearl Harbor and some Eric Clapton concert bits). the difference was quite noticeable. I'm surprised as i read so much rave reviews about the bd60 online. but i was just wondering if it was a fair trial given that we didnt mess around with the settings too much, only that both were outputting 1080i to the LCD.

then i went to the sony shop to try the s360 again and the results were horrible using Michael jackson's live concert DVD (recorded in 4:3 i think) on a 40" LCD. really horrible.

i'm utterly confused now... can anyone explain my observations?

The BD60 is about as good as up conversion for DVD gets. Perhaps something wasn't correct in the BD60 setup menu.
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post #5092 of 8256 Old 12-09-2009, 08:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ap1 View Post

...So I see three possible cases:

1. Receiver is not capable to accept 7.1 PCM @ 96kHz
2. Player can not decode DTS-MA HD with samples at more than 48kHz
3. Something is wrong in audio track structure, which prevents BD60 from decoding it correctly...

Well I got a hold of that Tchaikovsky Piano Concertos "Blu-ray Disc" from Surround Records. I use "Blu-ray Disc" in quotes because it is actually an AVCHD Dual Layer DVD with only an audio track (no video), but it is in fact a DTS-HD MA 7.1/24/96 recording and there definitely is something amiss when trying to decode it on the Panasonic players.

On the BD70V (same DTS-HD Essential chip set as BD60 and BD80), in bitstream mode the player passes the stream properly to a receiver via HDMI and all is well (DTS-HD MA 7.1/96/24). But the very first time I played it on the BD70V in PCM output mode (internal decoding), it put out a 32 Khz sampling rate. That only happened once. From then on, it was putting it out as PCM 7.1 with 48 KHz sampling.

Just for giggles, I tried this same AVCHD disc in two other players - a LG BD390 -- got no audio at all, in passthrough mode, multi-channel PCM, DTS Re-Encode or stereo PCM -- and in a Samsung BD-P2500 -- first no audio in any mode, then nasty static noises in PCM mode, then finally a trouble-free bitstream in bitstream (audiophile) mode.

So of the 3 players, the Panasonic was the only one that could decode the DTS-HD MA 7.1/96/24 stream *AT ALL* and it decoded it at 48 Khz. I guess there may be a reason why there are only two commercial "Blu-rays" on the market that use DTS-HD MA 7.1 channel 24-bit 96 Khz encoding. Seems to me that none of the current player hardware is able to reliably decode it to PCM. I did try it on an OPPO BD-P83 as well but this is currently not plugged into a receiver (only to an 8500 series Samsung LED/LCD) so, while I did get sound, I can't tell whether it's truncating the sampling rate or not.

Meanwhile, the Panny does properly decode DTS-HD MA 5.0, 5.1 at 24/96 as well as DTS-HD MA 7.1 at 24/48. It also has no problem with Dolby TrueHD 7.1/24/96 - this is specific to DTS-HD MA 7.1/24/96 and only when decoding internally to PCM. Setting the Panasonic to bitstream passes the soundtrack properly to a compatible receiver.

I'm going to play around with this a bit more, but it looks like right now DTS-HD Master Audio 7.1 soundtracks with 24-bit samples 96 KHz sampling are problematic for several players, and this might account for why there is no software on the market encoded this way. Good catch! But of limited impact right now considering the dearth of software.

-CB

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post #5093 of 8256 Old 12-09-2009, 08:18 PM
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I'd also add Akira BD disc to the test. It's the only disc I know has TrueHD 192KHz/24-bit 5.1 track.
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post #5094 of 8256 Old 12-09-2009, 08:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Foxbat121 View Post

I'd also add Akira BD disc to the test. It's the only disc I know has TrueHD 192KHz/24-bit 5.1 track.

Thanks for the tip. But the latest Dolby sampler disc has a clip in TrueHD 5.1/192 KHz and that decodes fine on the Panasonic to 192KHz PCM.

-CB

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post #5095 of 8256 Old 12-09-2009, 09:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Foxbat121 View Post

No one owes you any answers or purposfully withhold answers. If you haven't seen any answers for you question, it is probably no one knows the answer. For him to thread spaming is just rude. What's next, all capital letters

I asked a simple question about the analog hookups, but I eventually figured it all out for myself, no harm done, and it's what makes this hobby fun. As for the original poster with the problem, I didn't take his big fonts the way some people are. He asked nicely several times and finally I'm sure he was frustrated and felt he was being ignored, and the bigger fonts did get our attention and someone DID answer his question. So..what's more rude, ignoring and not answering him or just plain saying he or she is rude because they write in a bigger font? Just saying...

Jeff
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post #5096 of 8256 Old 12-10-2009, 06:06 AM
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So Im hooking up my BD60 to my just purchased Sony HT-SS360 5.1 system via HDMI and Im not 100% sure on the settings I should be using on the BD60.

Im sure I will get bitched at and and told to do a search and I did, but stiil was not sure of the settings.
If some one could answer my settings questions or direct me to a settings page that I did not find in my search's that would be great.

Example's of some of the settings Im un-sure of to send to my Sony HT-SS360.
Dynamic Range Compression set to OFF ?
Digital Audio Output,,,,PCM, not Bitstream ?
PCM Down Conversion ??
BD-Video Secondary Audio ??

Sorry for the dumbass settings questions.

Cheers
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post #5097 of 8256 Old 12-10-2009, 06:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by skotx View Post

I'd save a few dollars if I were you. I think this article was posted previously on this very forum topic awhile back...

http://www.hemagazine.com/node/Dolby...compressed_PCM

They were right if we talk exclusively about movies. But for acoustical music (jazz, classical) difference is very significant even on moderately priced (under $5000) setup.
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post #5098 of 8256 Old 12-10-2009, 06:44 AM
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Im guessing while were on the subject that its better to bitstream from the panny and let your AVR process it if its capable ?

I am learning that the preferred way, if there is such a thing, is truly up for debate. Here is a cut and paste from the receiver forum that fleshes out this issue. These are the comments of AVS Special Member BobL:

There is no advantage to having ANY receiver decode the True HD and DTS master formats. Once decoded the bits are the same, that's what lossless is. It doesn't matter which device decodes it the player or the receiver. There can be advantages with lossy formats but not the lossless ones.

In fact it can be a disadvantage in some cases for secondary audio programs and BD-Live material where the audio is mixed into the sound track and sent via PCM stream. Players have no way of encoding that information into the lossless formats so you lose that functionality of your player when you set them to bitstream.

A little history: In the past Bitstream was preferred over PCM because PCM was only stereo and bitstream was the only choice for multi-channel playback. When encoding a lossy format such as Dolby Digital or DTS bits are thrown away. So some of the information is lost and it will never be returned. When a device decodes these formats it might try to guess at the information thrown away and add it back in. This is a simplification of course but the reality is some decoders did a better job than others.

In the past you would have to decide which device (player or receiver) had the better decoder, DACs, analog circuitry, etc. MOST of the time the receiver would do the better job and bitstream was the better choice over having the player decode it and send it out analog.

Set your player to PCM no matter which receiver you use. Bitstream is old world thinking and offers no advantages for newer formats.

Why would you want to limit your Blu-ray's features by using bitstream? It was designed for PCM and for the player to do the decoding so that it can mix audio streams. This can't be done using bitstream. I will say that not many discs use these features currently but that will increase as time goes on, especially with internet connectivity on these players. Bitstream is old world thinking.

It is possible that someone will try to make a dirt cheap player that doesn't do the decoding but with brand name players currently <$150 I doubt it would make a big cost difference. The big cost difference in the past wasn't the decoding but the DACs and analog circuitry.

Look at the cheap $25 DVD players many don't have component outputs. This is more analog circuitry and more connectors which cost money. If everything is all digital the cost is minimal especially as it will all be integrated into one chip (if it hasn't already) and they are not going to eliminate the HDMI port. They will more likely make a player with just an HDMI port and no other audio or video connections to save money.

I would want a receiver that can handle or at least pass a 1.3/1.4 signals along to the display for future capabilities coming in video. You will not see any players that don't have decoders, it is needed for Blu-ray's features and part of the specs.

BR is designed to have interactive capabilities and to achieve that it needs to be able to mix audio. To mix audio it needs to decode to PCM first then mix whatever audio it would like. It might be a sound effect for an interactive game, some type of secondary audio such as a director's comment that overlays the original soundtrack or possibly some other interactive feature from the internet. So not having decoders is not possible. Old world thinking again

Current BR discs only need HDMI version 1.0 to play 1080P with 8 channels of audio. I predict we will see a new BR version to handle media with the new capabilities of HDMI 1.3/1.4 (3D, higher resolutions, greater color bit depth, higher frame rates, etc). I also predict more HDMI problems with these greater bandwidths

So we will all be upgrading again in the future

It all eventually gets decoded to PCM, it doesn't matter which device does the decoding with LOSSLESS formats. The bits that exist before they are encoded are the same after they are decoded. Louder will always appear more clear and more dynamic. If you switch between bitstream and PCM you do need to level match before testing.

With Marantz there are differences as one can apply EQ and one can't. The differences will be how good or bad a job the EQ did for the sound in your room.

I agree there can be differences with Lossy formats but I'm not willing to sacrifice BR functionality for possibly slightly better sound when playing a DVD.

Based on Bob's logic, as well as my receiver's inability to decode and apply Audyssey settings, I will continue to output PCM to my receiver. I hope you find these comments as enlightening as I did. Take care.

Nick
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post #5099 of 8256 Old 12-10-2009, 06:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aliens View Post

Why can't you copy your Audyssey settings, turn off Audyssey, and enter them manually?

Hi Aliens:

That was my first idea:

A Way to Cheat the "Audyssey vs. Decoding" Choice?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Greetings Learned Forum:

Believe it or not, I have read this thread from it's beginning until just this past Halloween. So forgive me if this idea has been mentioned before, but I don't think it has.

We all know that with this particular series of receivers, we have to make a choice. Either we let the receiver process the bitstream audio signal and give up using the Audyssey EQ settings, or we have our players do the decoding and enjoy the benefits of Audyssey. Tell me why this would not work: After having Audyssey do its thing, what if we manually made the identical tweaks? Would this not result in being able to have the Marantz decode while at the same time, utilizing the Audyssey work product?

There MUST be a catch to this, as someone would have thought of it earlier. It was just one of those middle-of-the-night ideas and I wanted to air it in the forum.

Right now, I am letting my player decode and using Audyssey, but I was hoping to change things. I have a lot of 5.1 material, but have a 7.1 set-up. I would not mind using Dolby ES/EX to put all of my speaker to work on 5.1 material, but to do so, my understanding is that I would have thus made the election of receiver processing, and my Audyssey setting would be out the window.

What do you think?

Though I have not gotten to the bottom of it yet, here is a reply that I received from member ProjectEF that seems to be on the right track:

If I remember correctly, I believe someone said you could only copy settings to a point. Audyssey makes other alterations that aren't particularly user configurable, though I may be mistaken. I am still trying to figure out how to see what Audyssey has done to my EQ bands. It is the mother of all hassles for some, but I don't find doing the "workaround" to be that big of a deal. I just switch player output depending on what I am about to watch (takes all of 10 sec for me)

I will take some time this weekend to fool around with it and will report back anything interesting. Take care.

Nick
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post #5100 of 8256 Old 12-10-2009, 06:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by boylan13 View Post


I'm going to play around with this a bit more, but it looks like right now DTS-HD Master Audio 7.1 soundtracks with 24-bit samples 96 KHz sampling are problematic for several players, and this might account for why there is no software on the market encoded this way. Good catch! But of limited impact right now considering the dearth of software.

-CB

This is exactly what I experienced. My only suspicion is that both you and me had DVD physical media rather than BD. What receiver did you use? In my case it was Denon 2309.

I will also try to grab one of few available 2L disks with 5.1 24/192 DTS-HD MA.
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