Official Panasonic DMP-BD60/80 Owners Thread - Page 46 - AVS Forum
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post #1351 of 8256 Old 05-29-2009, 12:52 PM
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Even if BD60 is decoding DTS core, it doesn't exlain the missing center channel at all. To me, your issue seems to be that your receiver only get L and R channels from HDMI and missed all the other channels. Something might be related to the setup of your receiver.

In my setup (Pio Elite 92), I don't have the issue you mentioned when I set BD 60 to decode. But I hate getting LPCM 7.1 all the time. That's the only problem I have with Panny so far.

BTW, just received email back from Pansonic support regarding my report of decoding DTS-HD MA issue, it says "go to setup menu and turn on Bitstream". LOL.
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post #1352 of 8256 Old 05-29-2009, 01:03 PM
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HiFiFun,

Let's make this simple.

How do you know what track is being decoded for PCM output?

Are you basing your conclusions on what sounds right to you or something else? If the latter, what something else?

What audio settings are you using on your BD60?


Peter
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post #1353 of 8256 Old 05-29-2009, 01:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HiFiFun View Post

I see you guys are trying to be helpful, but your only considering one possibility of many. I go through a rigorous process of elimination before I post and study all the facts. But, no one is perfect either...

I see the decoding of legacy DTS core on the Denon AV controller. Here the DB-60 falsely reports DTS-HD Multi when it should make more of an accurate distiction. Misleading?
The Denon shows the 88KHz and 96Khz and 48 (by not showing anything.)

Everyone should monitor the ridiculous number of different audio formats at the beginning of the T2 Blu-ray. The awesome fidelity Thx demo is decoded at 96Khz.

OK, I tried to help, but I can't make heads or tails out of what you are saying. Maybe you don't really want help with this issue. I give up. You should return the BD60, which when you started this thread you said it was wonderful, and just continue to use your PS3.


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post #1354 of 8256 Old 05-29-2009, 01:52 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shinksma View Post

OK, I tried to help, but I can't make heads or tails out of what you are saying. Maybe you don't really want help with this issue. I give up. You should return the BD60, which when you started this thread you said it was wonderful, and just continue to use your PS3.

shinksma

No you can't give up, as you personally need to explain the owner's manual decoding footnotes!
The real truth here is simple I use a Sony Ps3 as a reference. The BD-60 properly decodes legacy Dolby, DTS and Dolby True HD in all channels just fine. Its failing to decode the DTS-HD Multi into LPCM. I think the manual states so (once you hire Tom Hanks to decode it).

Since the burden is still on me (you guys should be quoting from the owner's manual, but maybe are too smart to do so?) So i get to post the Audio Decoding Table from Hell and start asking you guys questions.
Gentlemen playing foot-notese is going to be lots-o-fun!
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post #1355 of 8256 Old 05-29-2009, 02:15 PM
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the only thing that I know about the T2 skynet edition.. is when I bitstream from my onkyo 605 to the panasonic 605 I am only getting 5.1 DTS MA.. but when I do pcm then I get 7.1

Jacob
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post #1356 of 8256 Old 05-29-2009, 02:19 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Foxbat121 View Post

BTW, just received email back from Pansonic support regarding my report of decoding DTS-HD MA issue, it says "go to setup menu and turn on Bitstream". LOL.

The Blu-ray spec is so poorly designed that manufactures are free to include or exclude just about and feature they desire. This lack of uniform standards is the real culprit and why it’s taken years for Blu-ray to catch on. We consumers are paying the price for the poor planning.

Here Panasonic is shifting the cost burden from themselves to the consumer. They want me to pay $2600 more to replace the $1200 AV controller that works fine with everything else. Worse the Audessy signal processing will only work with LPCM inputs. Kick me if I'm stupid.
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post #1357 of 8256 Old 05-29-2009, 02:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jacob305 View Post

the only thing that I know about the T2 skynet edition.. is when I bitstream from my onkyo 605 to the panasonic 605 I am only getting 5.1 DTS MA.. but when I do pcm then I get 7.1

Jacob

You always get LPCM 7.1 from DTS-HD MA decoding, be it 5.1 or 7.1. Panasonic simply duplicates rear channels. That's the bug I'm complaining about.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HiFiFun View Post

They want me to pay $2600 more to replace the $1200 AV controller that works fine with everything else. Worse the Audessy signal processing will only work with LPCM inputs. Kick me if I'm stupid.

Yeah, you will be stupid to pay $2,600 for a useless receiver that can't apply processing to DTS-HD MA bitstream. Even my $600 Pio can apply its MCACC (Pio's version of processing similar to Audessy) to any digital audio streams. The only thing I can't apply is DPL IIx but I can still use THX Select2.
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post #1358 of 8256 Old 05-29-2009, 02:42 PM
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I do get bitstsream 7.1 DTS on hellboy 2 and shoot em up and pan's labyrinth.
I also get trueHD 7.1 on the 6 star trek movies.

Jacob
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post #1359 of 8256 Old 05-29-2009, 02:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jacob305 View Post

the only thing that I know about the T2 skynet edition.. is when I bitstream from my onkyo 605 to the panasonic 605 I am only getting 5.1 DTS MA.. but when I do pcm then I get 7.1

Jacob

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jacob305 View Post

I do get bitstsream 7.1 DTS on hellboy 2 and shoot em up and pan's labyrinth.
I also get trueHD 7.1 on the 6 star trek movies.

Jacob

Let me try it again. Bitstream is not a problem of Panny BD60/80. In the case of T2 Skynet edition, its use of DTS-HD MA 6.1 will cause problem with most players (if they decode) and AVRs out there. In your case, its your Onkyo 605 that can't handle DTS-HD MA 6.1 bitstream. And Panny, when set to PCM, will probably decode as 5.1 as well but since it always duplicate rear channels to 7.1, there is no way we can know if it decodes to 6.1 or 5.1.
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post #1360 of 8256 Old 05-29-2009, 02:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mugupo View Post

Does DB80 able to play MPEG file on the usb?

I had BD605K i can't installed the db60 patch, my version 1.1, i might return it to sams club before do i would do netflix trial to see which blu-ray disk i had problem playing.

Here is what the manual states:
Quote:


SD card:
SD Memory Card formatted FAT12, FAT16, FAT32:
JPEG, AVCHD format, MPEG-2
USB device:
USB Standard:USB 2.0 High Speed MP3, JPEG, DivX
Format: FAT12, FAT16, FAT32

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post #1361 of 8256 Old 05-29-2009, 02:54 PM
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anyone know if bd80 can play mpeg file in the usb port?
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post #1362 of 8256 Old 05-29-2009, 03:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Foxbat121 View Post

This the first ever DTS-HD MA 6.1 track. I'd expect most receivers and players will have problem with it.

Top Gun on Blu-ray has a true DTS-MA 6.1 track with a discrete mono back channel, not ES matrixed. I have 8 speakers, so the back mono channel is split to both the left and right back speakers.

So, what seems to be the issue with the T2: Skynet Edition is that players and/or decoders aren't properly handling DTS-MA 5.1 tracks with an ES flag embedded to turn on ES matrix decoding to extract a matrixed mono back surround channel.

If I were to pick up a Panny BD80 and I bitstreamed DTS-MA 5.1 tracks to my Onkyo's decoder, it wouldn't duplicate the side surrounds and force 7.1 playback would it?

I recommend PL IIx over and above DTS-ES and Dolby Digital EX decoding as it creates a better pseudo 7.1 steering with stereo back surrounds than 6.1 with a matrixed mono back surround.

I use PL IIx on all 5.1 mixes, be it PCM, DTS, or Dolby and it sounds great. Too bad I don't have money for a new Lexicon processor because their Logic7 steering is even better than PL IIx.

Of course, what the studios should be doing is creating proper 7.1 channel discrete mixes rather than fussing around with matrixed back surround mixing anymore. I've heard the future and it's high resolution 7.1 audio!!

Listen up, studios! Just say "NO" to DNR and EE!!
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post #1363 of 8256 Old 05-29-2009, 03:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HiFiFun View Post

No you can't give up, as you personally need to explain the owner’s manual decoding footnotes!
The real truth here is simple I use a Sony Ps3 as a reference. The BD-60 properly decodes legacy Dolby, DTS and Dolby True HD in all channels just fine. Its failing to decode the DTS-HD Multi into LPCM. I think the manual states so (once you hire Tom Hanks to decode it).

Since the burden is still on me (you guys should be quoting from the owner’s manual, but maybe are too smart to do so?) So i get to post the Audio Decoding Table from Hell and start asking you guys questions.
Gentlemen playing foot-notese is going to be lots-o-fun!

If you want help solving your problem, then you'll participate in the process in a productive way. If not, you're on your own and shrinkma's advice to return your BD60 seems like a good idea.

But, please don't come in here and post false information claiming the BD60 cannot decode dts-MA. That does a disservice to others considering the BD60/80 line of players.

Meanwhile, look at the chart on p8 of the manual. There are columns for HDMI AV OUT and PCM. Go to the row for DTS-HD Master Audio. There's a box for that column and row that says 7.1ch PCM output. The box is light gray, meaning the audio output is hires. Toward the bottom of p8, in the section labelled "Enjoying High Bit rate Audio of BD-Video", it says it is necessary to set Secondary Audio to Off to enjoy DTS-HD Master Audio.

There is absolutely no question that the BD60 decodes dts-MA for PCM output. The manual says it does. Other owners say it does. So, if you are having problems getting the right output, you likely have a bad player or an improper set-up. Frankly, your description of no center channel and just ambiance in the L and R speakers sounds like something completely unrelated to substituting lossy for dts-MA.
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post #1364 of 8256 Old 05-29-2009, 05:01 PM
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Is it just me, or does ANYONE out there get a U73 error and/or incredibly long wait times while the BD60 and the Next Component In Line (for me, a Yamahe RX-V665) are trying to shake hands and make nice?

Anyone?
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post #1365 of 8256 Old 05-29-2009, 07:41 PM
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watching Tropic Thunder on the BD60 and the freezes started. 18 minutes in so far...

should it go back to Amazon?
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post #1366 of 8256 Old 05-29-2009, 07:43 PM
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I think I get 6.1 even if its not flagged as such.. because I hear sound coming from the back when the terminators robots are shooting at the screen during the future scene. perhaps other could test that.

Jacob
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post #1367 of 8256 Old 05-29-2009, 08:20 PM
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I'm sure that if I leaf through many, many pages, the answer will be contained in there somewhere, but I beg mercy on the Court...er, forum, for a quick answer please. I currently have a Panny DMP-35, which does NOT process, but rather, passes on material per my AVR HDMI 1.3
So...does the DMP-60 process on its own or is it also a "pass-through?" Thanks for a quick answer...much appreciated !
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post #1368 of 8256 Old 05-30-2009, 01:48 AM - Thread Starter
 
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BD-60 Audio Menu 1:

[BD-V]: When the connected equipment is supported with 7.1 channel surround, the audio output is amplified from 5.1ch or 6.1ch to 7.1ch
depending on the (lack of well-defined) DTS, Inc. specifications.

Note: this whole mess could have been avoided if the DTS specification generated the audio channels using the HDMI receivers speaker configuration.
Remember most receivers can accept 7.1 channels, but the vast majority of systems use 5.1 channels.
LL
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post #1369 of 8256 Old 05-30-2009, 01:49 AM - Thread Starter
 
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BD-60 Audio Menu 2:
Here we are introduced to the concept of PCM Down Conversion and DownMix in the picture only.

The owner is then further directed:
For more information about settings, refer to page 33, 34, 37. (This is an adventure novel)
LL
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post #1370 of 8256 Old 05-30-2009, 02:01 AM - Thread Starter
 
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BD-60 Audio Menu 3:

Here we read:
"If the unit is connected with the HDMI AV OUT terminal, the specifications of the connected equipment take preference over this unit (throw out everything we just told you!) and audio selected in these items may not be output"
Gee I just learned the DTS specifications took precedence. Who's in control here? Nobody? Everybody?
LL
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post #1371 of 8256 Old 05-30-2009, 02:35 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Here is the intelligent solution offered by Panasonic for the HDMI video:
"HDMI VIDEO Resolution

- Auto: Automatically selects the output resolution best suited to the connected television (1080p, 1080i, 720p or 480p).
- 480p - 720p (manual setting)
-1080i -1080p (manual setting)
24p (manual setting)
DVD 24p (manual setting)
–When the unit is connected to an amplifier/receiver that does not support the resolution set on the unit, the video cannot be output properly. "

Notice Panasonic incorporates both auto and manual settings for the video output format.
This HDMI audio solution is simple compared to the corner Panasonic has painted itself into: Incorporate similar manual settings for the audio. Dah!

Lets apply Panasonic's own logic from the video to the audio:
"–When the unit is connected to an amplifier/receiver that does not support the speaker conguration set manually or incorrectly chosen by the unit, the audio cannot be output properly."

All the confusing audio tables are then rendered obsolete and can be deleted from the owners manual. Oh happy day?

The PS3 design is now several years old and still works perfectly as Sony provides both auto and manual (override) HDMI speaker configuration settings.

In conclusion there is a serious bug in the DTS specification and/or the Panasonic design. Possible mastering errors in the discs (read T2) will only lead to further confusion.
It’s notable that Dolby True-HD works fine under similar circumstances. Superior engineering?
Combining three poorly defined standards (HDMI, Blu-ray, DTS-HD/MA) is expensive, time consuming and nauseating for end users. Please add a menu based manual-overrride speaker configuration setting to overcome the bugs and breakdown in communication.
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post #1372 of 8256 Old 05-30-2009, 03:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TommyV View Post

I am confused. Do you mean THIS PROJECTOR? If so that is an LCD digital projector with an HDMI input on it.

Sorry Tommy for my "encrypted" english...
I said that the best way for me should ask someone that has a BD80 to let me try it in my personal A/V chain (where there's a Panny AX-100 connected with a dvi-dvi+adapter cable..). I say this 'cause here in Italy we can buy a BD80 only via internet-shop, and have a replacemant just because a BR player "doesn't fit" your A/V chain is almost impossible..
The Loewe crt can accept only component cable, but it'll be not connect to a BR player
I hope it's all clear now
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post #1373 of 8256 Old 05-30-2009, 06:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WOLVERNOLE View Post

I'm sure that if I leaf through many, many pages, the answer will be contained in there somewhere, but I beg mercy on the Court...er, forum, for a quick answer please. I currently have a Panny DMP-35, which does NOT process, but rather, passes on material per my AVR HDMI 1.3
So...does the DMP-60 process on its own or is it also a "pass-through?" Thanks for a quick answer...much appreciated !

You used wrong terms.

Bitstream: pass-through audio from disc to receiver untouched. Receiver must be able to decode all BD audio codecs.

PCM/Decode: decode all audio and output as LPCM.

BD60/80 can do both.
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post #1374 of 8256 Old 05-30-2009, 10:18 AM
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is there any blu-ray player out there that can display pq and sq stats like ps3 when playing blu-ray?
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post #1375 of 8256 Old 05-30-2009, 05:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HiFiFun View Post

BD-60 Audio Menu 1:

[BD-V]: When the connected equipment is supported with 7.1 channel surround, the audio output is amplified from 5.1ch or 6.1ch to 7.1ch
depending on the (lack of well-defined) DTS, Inc. specifications.

Note: this whole mess could have been avoided if the DTS specification generated the audio channels using the HDMI receivers speaker configuration.
Remember most receivers can accept 7.1 channels, but the vast majority of systems use 5.1 channels.

It does for me. Using a Denon 4806CI in PCM mode. Receiver is 7.1 but configured in 5.1. DTS MAster is sent as PCM 5.1. Terminator 2 works perfectly in 5.1.

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post #1376 of 8256 Old 05-30-2009, 05:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HiFiFun View Post

Here is the intelligent solution offered by Panasonic for the HDMI video:
"HDMI VIDEO Resolution

- Auto: Automatically selects the output resolution best suited to the connected television (1080p, 1080i, 720p or 480p).
- 480p - 720p (manual setting)
-1080i -1080p (manual setting)
24p (manual setting)
DVD 24p (manual setting)
–When the unit is connected to an amplifier/receiver that does not support the resolution set on the unit, the video cannot be output properly. "

Notice Panasonic incorporates both auto and manual settings for the video output format.
This HDMI audio solution is simple compared to the corner Panasonic has painted itself into: Incorporate similar manual settings for the audio. Dah!

Lets apply Panasonic's own logic from the video to the audio:
"–When the unit is connected to an amplifier/receiver that does not support the speaker conguration set manually or incorrectly chosen by the unit, the audio cannot be output properly."

All the confusing audio tables are then rendered obsolete and can be deleted from the owners manual. Oh happy day?

The PS3 design is now several years old and still works perfectly as Sony provides both auto and manual (override) HDMI speaker configuration settings.

In conclusion there is a serious bug in the DTS specification and/or the Panasonic design. Possible mastering errors in the discs (read T2) will only lead to further confusion.
It’s notable that Dolby True-HD works fine under similar circumstances. Superior engineering?
Combining three poorly defined standards (HDMI, Blu-ray, DTS-HD/MA) is expensive, time consuming and nauseating for end users. Please add a menu based manual-overrride speaker configuration setting to overcome the bugs and breakdown in communication.

If you have a 7.1 setup then yes, the Panasonic will output 7.1 PCM from a 5.1 DTS Master Audio track. If you are using a 5.1 setup like myself, only 5.1 is output. Now, whether or not you "like" the 7.1 output from the player is another question. I wouldn't call it a "serious bug" in the DTS specification. It is either the way DTS or Panasonic implemented it. As I said in my previous post, if your receiver is set up properly then the proper out is sent. My 7.1 channel Denon 4806CI is set up in a 5.1 speaker configuration and that is what it receives from the Panasonic because that is what the receiver tells the player it wants to receive. Now if it were set up in a 7.1 config, I might want it to only receive 5.1 instead of 7.1 and have the receiver do the back matrixing. And none of this is applicable in bitstream mode which would be my HT setup (7.1 bitstream).

Furthermore, T2, Bond, and all other DTS Master titles have worked perfectly in PCM mode on both my Panasonic and my Samsung 3600. Showing 5.1, 24/48 as being input on my 7.1 receiver (Denon 4806CI) on T2.

It seems that you are the only one confused by the audio table. It is clear to me and others here. I'm trying to figure out if you have an alterior motive or just have difficulty with setups. You came on here sounding like one of my reps saying the 60/80 are the best things since buttered bread, and then saying it is seriously flawed.

S~

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post #1377 of 8256 Old 05-30-2009, 05:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HiFiFun View Post

BD-60 Audio Menu 3:

Here we read:
"If the unit is connected with the HDMI AV OUT terminal, the specifications of the connected equipment take preference over this unit (throw out everything we just told you!) and audio selected in these items may not be output"
Gee I just learned the DTS specifications took precedence. Who's in control here? Nobody? Everybody?

Using your terminology "Gee" that's the way it has to be, not with just the Panasonics, but all players. You can't output more than the receiving equipment can receive. For example, my 70 year old dad finally got into HD, only because I gave him a 47" LCD for Christmas. He plugs the BD35 I gave him directly into the TV, no surround system. Good enough for them. TV's for the most part only accept 2 ch PCM, so you can't output 5.1 or 7.1 into a piece of equipment that only accepts a 2 channel signal.

S~

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post #1378 of 8256 Old 05-30-2009, 07:31 PM
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Just lost the video on my BD-80 at the 2:07 mark via component while viewing The Dark Knight on BD. Player seems hot to me, audio is still stellar via HDMI into my Yammy RX-863. Anybody have any ideas what the problem is? : - (

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post #1379 of 8256 Old 05-31-2009, 04:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TommyV View Post

Are you asking if what you are experiencing during your comparison is the correct experience? I don't know what all the differences between the 60 and 30 are on paper except internal decoding but if I had both in my home to compare I would not need someone else telling me which is superior in what way. You are in a better position than the vast majority of posters here to make that call.

Understood but it is always beneficial IMHO to get other's viewpoints that have done comparisons with the same equipment. It has been less than a week since I had this player and I'm sure buried in here are at least some of those.

And folks, the date on the rear of the player I got was January 2009. No problems with loading, playing or freezing so far.
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post #1380 of 8256 Old 05-31-2009, 05:46 AM
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Viewing Waterhorse from Netflix and experienced a freeze. I pressed play and the movie continued. This is only the fourth BD played and the first freeze. It's a 605 from Costco with the latest firmware and an April, 2009 mfg date.
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