Official Panasonic DMP-BD60/80 Owners Thread - Page 5 - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #121 of 8256 Old 03-26-2009, 06:17 PM
Newbie
 
wrj54's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 8
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
All Panasonic BR owners:

I can't find in the manual (of the BD60) how to jump to a specific time in a movie. Let's say I watch a movie up to the 44 minute mark but remove the disc to watch something else. I would like to be able to jump to that 44 minute mark quickly once I re-insert the disc. My old non-BR DVD player does this. I can start the movie at any time I wish. I just don't see how to do it on the new BD60. I'm guessing the BD35 would be the same. In this example, I'm viewing a SD disc. Would a BR movie be different?

Also, can I bookmark a location on the disc? Or do only certain discs have bookmark capabilities?
wrj54 is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #122 of 8256 Old 03-26-2009, 06:31 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
Cleveland Plasma's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Cleveland, Ohio
Posts: 12,046
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 321 Post(s)
Liked: 538
Quote:
Originally Posted by millerwill View Post

Any sightings yet of the DMP-BD 70V?

Should be anyday, we just got the DMP-BD60K in.......
Cleveland Plasma is offline  
post #123 of 8256 Old 03-26-2009, 07:41 PM
AVS Special Member
 
TitusTroy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: New York City
Posts: 2,640
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 10 Post(s)
Liked: 89
got my BD60 today...I'm not an expert like a lot of you here but from my untrained eyes the PQ is excellent on Blu-Ray and the upconservion is also not too shabby as well...but I'm stepping up from the Toshiba HD-A2 HD-DVD player so maybe that explains some of it as well

the startup times are very fast for me...I don't understand where all those review sites got the 1+ minute load times...for me it's maybe 15-20 seconds from putting the disk in until the Menu screen

the player is better looking then the pics I saw...smaller then my old HD-A2 and very sleek with a nice piano finish on the top

for the price this player is an absolute bargain
TitusTroy is offline  
post #124 of 8256 Old 03-26-2009, 07:46 PM
AVS Special Member
 
ScottChez's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 1,281
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
This source mentions that someone at Panasonic said they could add Netflix and Sports with out a firmware update, it would just someday show up on the menu.

This would be good news.

http://www.videobusiness.com/article/CA6644915.html


(I had posted this in the wrong un official thread before)
ScottChez is offline  
post #125 of 8256 Old 03-26-2009, 08:30 PM
Senior Member
 
dandan123's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 216
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
When is the BD80 expected ? My receiver doesnt' have HDMI so I can't use the BD60.
dandan123 is offline  
post #126 of 8256 Old 03-26-2009, 09:12 PM
Senior Member
 
wymann's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 226
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
wymann is offline  
post #127 of 8256 Old 03-27-2009, 03:12 AM
Member
 
rvp819's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: North of 45
Posts: 70
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
If you're in Canada (as I am) and planning to get a BD60 or BD80 for its Viera Cast capability, note the following I received from Amazon.ca...

"Please note that you won't be able to access Video On Demand from Canada.

We expect our Canadian web site to expand and improve the selection of products and services we provide, but we have no further details to give you at this time regarding our plans for these feature."

This is no surprise, since other similar services such as Netflix video streaming and Pandora audio streaming supported on other brands of player are not available in Canada due to licensing issues.
rvp819 is offline  
post #128 of 8256 Old 03-27-2009, 08:38 AM
Newbie
 
jaw2th's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 3
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by shinksma View Post

Did you download the owner's manual from Panasonic's website?

Have you tried a different display? Even hook up composite or component just see if you can see anything?

shinksma

Thanks, I finally found the problem. Additional inputs on the TV had to be activated through a 3 step process that was well hidden in the Appendix section at the end of the TV's Owner's Manual. I did that and everything is working now. I see a noticeable upgrade in both the PQ and the sound of my 7.1 system. My system is now juiced! The frustration is gone. The result was worth the effort.

- jaw2th -
jaw2th is offline  
post #129 of 8256 Old 03-27-2009, 09:47 AM - Thread Starter
 
HiFiFun's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: USA
Posts: 2,209
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 17
From the DB-60 Owners manual:

24p Output [BD-V] [DVD-V]
When this unit is connected to a TV supporting 1080/24p output
via an HDMI cable, this unit displays each frame at 1/24 second
intervals – the same interval originally shot with the film camera
.
-- When playing DVD-Video, set to “On” and then set “24p” in “Video” (pg 31) to “On”

According to Kris the Panasonic models 35/60/80 are the only released blu-ray players to output DVD at 24p.
Just as it took many years for manufacturer's to eliminate overscan in digital TVs, I expect nothing different for 24p DVD output for Blu-ray players. Overscan was a hold-over from the analog TV days. Now that I think about it so too is 60Hz!

Having a player output the original shot 24p is the major requirement necessary to display to generate smooth, clear motion frames up to 120/240Hz.

A quote from the BD-35 review:
"Panasonic has included the ability to play back standard DVDs at 1080p/24, which is a rarity for Blu-ray players. For all the people with 1080p/24-capable displays, it’s a bonus to be able to take advantage of removing the judder that’s associated with 3:2 pulldown. You can turn this feature on and off from the display menu while a disc is playing. I tested this out using my Lord of the Rings boxed set, and I was surprised at how well the player performed. Normally, tearing and frame drops are quite evident with frame-rate conversion, but the Panasonic players did quite well. Pans were smooth, and I never noticed any frame drops. The player does take a moment to sync up after a chapter skip, but it was smooth sailing from there."

Notice there is no talk of frame interpolation as front projectors are far behind flat panels in this technology.
http://hometheatermag.com/discplayer...u-ray_players/
HiFiFun is offline  
post #130 of 8256 Old 03-27-2009, 11:57 AM
Advanced Member
 
eganov's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 622
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
A friend of mine just called me from a Best Buy in WI. BD60's in stock. He got one.
eganov is offline  
post #131 of 8256 Old 03-27-2009, 12:26 PM
Newbie
 
mneblett's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 5
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Another "they're out there" report -- my BD60 hit the doorstep from Crutchfield about noon today. Picking up my first BD movie this evening -- much anticipation to see if the BD & Panny 42" (can't remember the model # -- one of the 85 series plasmas) was worth the bux!

While I'm posting -- anyone use the Panasonic TV/BDP linking feature yet? Any reports? Seemless connection, or setup problems? Any problems with function of the link after the initial setup? I'm not expecting any problems; just trying to learn from others' experience if there are any issues.

Thanks!
mneblett is offline  
post #132 of 8256 Old 03-27-2009, 02:23 PM
AVS Special Member
 
moviegeek's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: CA, USA
Posts: 1,714
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 13
CNET updated their review of the BD60:
http://reviews.cnet.com/video-player...-33490457.html

Basically saying it's the same as the BD35 with internet capabilities.
moviegeek is offline  
post #133 of 8256 Old 03-27-2009, 04:52 PM
AVS Special Member
 
lrstevens421's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: The Big Apple
Posts: 3,653
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by HiFiFun View Post

According to Kris the Panasonic models 35/60/80 are the only released blu-ray players to output DVD at 24p.

Now this is quite interesting. I had no idea the BD60/80 ouputted 1080p24 for standard dvd's. Quite interesting. Hmm......

Making the most out of what I got.
lrstevens421 is offline  
post #134 of 8256 Old 03-27-2009, 05:10 PM
Member
 
TurboTalon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 164
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by lrstevens421 View Post

Now this is quite interesting. I had no idea the BD60/80 ouputted 1080p24 for standard dvd's. Quite interesting. Hmm......

.....................

He never said 1080... he said 24p.. that means 24 frames a second..
TurboTalon is offline  
post #135 of 8256 Old 03-27-2009, 05:33 PM
AVS Special Member
 
shinksma's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Wandering the intertubes, on the way to damnation
Posts: 2,825
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 15
Quote:
Originally Posted by lrstevens421 View Post

Now this is quite interesting. I had no idea the BD60/80 ouputted 1080p24 for standard dvd's. Quite interesting. Hmm......

Quote:
Originally Posted by TurboTalon View Post

.....................

He never said 1080... he said 24p.. that means 24 frames a second..

I expect the new Pannys output at 480p24 and also can be upscaled to 1080p24 via HDMI, which I believe is also what the new Oppo BDP-83 does (to be released soon, I hope).

shinksma

My opinions are my own, and do not necessarily reflect those of my captors.
shinksma is offline  
post #136 of 8256 Old 03-27-2009, 05:56 PM
Member
 
benchmarkjoe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 40
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
I ordered from Crutchfield for a week now and they said still on the order for bd60. I would certainly call to ask them tomorrow.
benchmarkjoe is offline  
post #137 of 8256 Old 03-27-2009, 05:59 PM
AVS Special Member
 
jsmiddleton4's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Glendale, AZ
Posts: 3,259
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 54 Post(s)
Liked: 24
Not defending it, not justifying it, just pointing out that Panasonic's 24p being enabled depends on the display sending whatever information that makes the 24p 100% compliant via hdmi handshake. If your display maybe able to display 24p BUT it does not send 100% compliant information to the Panasonic blu-ray players, you can not turn on 24p. There is no "force" option.

E.B. White said, "I arise in the morning torn between a desire to improve the world and a desire to enjoy the world. This makes it hard to plan the day."
jsmiddleton4 is offline  
post #138 of 8256 Old 03-27-2009, 06:22 PM
Member
 
benchmarkjoe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 40
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by benchmarkjoe View Post

I ordered from Crutchfield for a week now and they said still on the order for bd60. I would certainly call to ask them tomorrow.

.
If I have it now, I may have to return it back to Crutchfield because this bd60 does not support Dvix.
benchmarkjoe is offline  
post #139 of 8256 Old 03-27-2009, 06:25 PM
AVS Special Member
 
lrstevens421's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: The Big Apple
Posts: 3,653
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by TurboTalon View Post

.....................

He never said 1080... he said 24p.. that means 24 frames a second..

If it supports 24hz for SD-DVD's at all, expecting 1080p24 support is not unreasonable.

Making the most out of what I got.
lrstevens421 is offline  
post #140 of 8256 Old 03-27-2009, 06:28 PM
Member
 
Road Rash's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Kiel, WI
Posts: 87
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Panasonic DMP-BD80 review from Big Picture Big Sound is up...

http://www.bigpicturebigsound.com/Pa...c_Player.shtml

"If you know everything, you must be misinformed"
^ old Japanese proverb ^
Road Rash is offline  
post #141 of 8256 Old 03-27-2009, 06:49 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Kage's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Arlington, TX
Posts: 1,090
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Earlier today, I bought the BD60 at Best Buy and now they have 1 left in stock. The salesperson said that they had 10 in stock yesterday. So far I'm really liking the BD60 that I'm considering in selling my Pioneer BDP-51FD.
Kage is offline  
post #142 of 8256 Old 03-27-2009, 07:00 PM
AVS Special Member
 
lrstevens421's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: The Big Apple
Posts: 3,653
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kage View Post

So far I'm really liking the BD60 that I'm considering in selling my Pioneer BDP-51FD.

Trust me, this is a vicious cycle .

Making the most out of what I got.
lrstevens421 is offline  
post #143 of 8256 Old 03-27-2009, 07:12 PM
Senior Member
 
sdv5's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: San Francisco
Posts: 371
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by jsmiddleton4 View Post

Not defending it, not justifying it, just pointing out that Panasonic's 24p being enabled depends on the display sending whatever information that makes the 24p 100% compliant via hdmi handshake. If your display maybe able to display 24p BUT it does not send 100% compliant information to the Panasonic blu-ray players, you can not turn on 24p. There is no "force" option.

Thanks for the clarification. However, there is apparently a usability error that forces you to enable 24p setting for every disc you play. The player cannot default to this setting even if you decide that you really like it. You need to enable it in the menu each time you play a disc. Can someone confirm that this is correct? If so, then some people will likely get annoyed and describe it as serious user interface error.
sdv5 is offline  
post #144 of 8256 Old 03-27-2009, 07:21 PM
AVS Special Member
 
lrstevens421's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: The Big Apple
Posts: 3,653
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
^^If this is the case, it sounds easily correctable via firmware.

Making the most out of what I got.
lrstevens421 is offline  
post #145 of 8256 Old 03-27-2009, 07:23 PM
AVS Club Gold
 
boylan13's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: New York, NY
Posts: 1,263
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by sdv5 View Post

Thanks for the clarification. However, there is apparently a usability error that forces you to enable 24p setting for every disc you play. The player cannot default to this setting even if you decide that you really like it. You need to enable it in the menu each time you play a disc. Can someone confirm that this is correct? If so, then some people will likely get annoyed and describe it as serious user interface error.

Actually, it may not be ideal but it is designed that way on purpose. With DVDs it's impossible for the player to tell if the native rate of the material is 24FPS, and if you force a DVD with a native frame rate other than 24 into 24FPS mode, it looks like crap.

Panasonic decided it was better to require the user to set the player to 24p mode for DVDs at playback time so if they immediately see funky behavior after setting the player to 24p mode they'll understand why it's happening and they can reverse the setting.

It was designed to work this way in the 35/55. This is not new behavior in the 60/80.

-CB

Chris Boylan
Home Theater Editor
Big Picture Big Sound
boylan13 is offline  
post #146 of 8256 Old 03-27-2009, 07:25 PM
AVS Special Member
 
TitusTroy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: New York City
Posts: 2,640
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 10 Post(s)
Liked: 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by Road Rash View Post

Panasonic DMP-BD80 review from Big Picture Big Sound is up...

http://www.bigpicturebigsound.com/Pa...c_Player.shtml

"At times, while watching well-mastered DVDs such as Star Wars Episode III: Revenge of the Sith I almost forgot that I was watching standard definition content, the upconversion was that good."

I agree...when I put in Episode 3 it looked absolutely stunning...best upconversion by far...looked like I was watching a Blu Ray version of the movie...if all standard DVD's were mastered this way then there would almost be no need for Blu-Ray
TitusTroy is offline  
post #147 of 8256 Old 03-27-2009, 07:28 PM
AVS Club Gold
 
boylan13's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: New York, NY
Posts: 1,263
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by TitusTroy View Post

"At times, while watching well-mastered DVDs such as Star Wars Episode III: Revenge of the Sith I almost forgot that I was watching standard definition content, the upconversion was that good."

I agree...when I put in Episode 3 it looked absolutely stunning...best upconversion by far...looked like I was watching a Blu Ray version of the movie...if all standard DVD's were mastered this way then there would almost be no need for Blu-Ray

Hey, you forgot to include the next line:

"I did not, however, forget that I was watching a bad movie. No upconversion in the world can help with that."

But of course, that is a matter of opinion.

-CB

Chris Boylan
Home Theater Editor
Big Picture Big Sound
boylan13 is offline  
post #148 of 8256 Old 03-27-2009, 08:09 PM
AVS Special Member
 
ack_bk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Maple Grove, MN
Posts: 8,814
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 15 Post(s)
Liked: 103
Quote:
Originally Posted by TitusTroy View Post

got my BD60 today...I'm not an expert like a lot of you here but from my untrained eyes the PQ is excellent on Blu-Ray and the upconservion is also not too shabby as well...but I'm stepping up from the Toshiba HD-A2 HD-DVD player so maybe that explains some of it as well

the startup times are very fast for me...I don't understand where all those review sites got the 1+ minute load times...for me it's maybe 15-20 seconds from putting the disk in until the Menu screen

the player is better looking then the pics I saw...smaller then my old HD-A2 and very sleek with a nice piano finish on the top

for the price this player is an absolute bargain

It depends greatly on the title and the use of BD-J. Some movies load much faster than others. A good litmus test are movies such as Ratatouille, Pirates 1-3, etc. Out of my three BD players that I own (PS3, BD35, and Samsung 1500) the BD35 is the slowest at loading and playing movies.

But there is not much to argue about (Panasonic BD players) in terms of overall PQ, AQ, customer support, and upconversion
ack_bk is offline  
post #149 of 8256 Old 03-27-2009, 08:11 PM
Member
 
TurboTalon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 164
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by boylan13 View Post

Actually, it may not be ideal but it is designed that way on purpose. With DVDs it's impossible for the player to tell if the native rate of the material is 24FPS, and if you force a DVD with a native frame rate other than 24 into 24FPS mode, it looks like crap.

Panasonic decided it was better to require the user to set the player to 24p mode for DVDs at playback time so if they immediately see funky behavior after setting the player to 24p mode they'll understand why it's happening and they can reverse the setting.

It was designed to work this way in the 35/55. This is not new behavior in the 60/80.

-CB

Thanks for your post.. it's nice to read something that actually makes sense. I plan on playing mostly Blu so I'm not really worried about it. Plus I've been happy with standard DVD's through my 360 so I'm not really worried about changing settings.

Still waiting for more people to buy these so the price will drop lol.
TurboTalon is offline  
post #150 of 8256 Old 03-27-2009, 08:18 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Kris Deering's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: The Pacific Northwet
Posts: 7,035
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 113 Post(s)
Liked: 294
Quote:
Originally Posted by HiFiFun View Post

From the DB-60 Owners manual:

24p Output [BD-V] [DVD-V]
When this unit is connected to a TV supporting 1080/24p output
via an HDMI cable, this unit displays each frame at 1/24 second
intervals - the same interval originally shot with the film camera
.
-- When playing DVD-Video, set to On and then set 24p in Video (pg 31) to On

According to Kris the Panasonic models 35/60/80 are the only released blu-ray players to output DVD at 24p.
Just as it took many years for manufacturer's to eliminate overscan in digital TVs, I expect nothing different for 24p DVD output for Blu-ray players. Overscan was a hold-over from the analog TV days. Now that I think about it so too is 60Hz!

Having a player output the original shot 24p is the major requirement necessary to display to generate smooth, clear motion frames up to 120/240Hz.

A quote from the BD-35 review:
"Panasonic has included the ability to play back standard DVDs at 1080p/24, which is a rarity for Blu-ray players. For all the people with 1080p/24-capable displays, it's a bonus to be able to take advantage of removing the judder that's associated with 3:2 pulldown. You can turn this feature on and off from the display menu while a disc is playing. I tested this out using my Lord of the Rings boxed set, and I was surprised at how well the player performed. Normally, tearing and frame drops are quite evident with frame-rate conversion, but the Panasonic players did quite well. Pans were smooth, and I never noticed any frame drops. The player does take a moment to sync up after a chapter skip, but it was smooth sailing from there."

Notice there is no talk of frame interpolation as front projectors are far behind flat panels in this technology.
http://hometheatermag.com/discplayer...u-ray_players/

And thank god for that. I personally HATE frame interpolation as it takes film and makes it look like your afternoon soap operas. If this feature was to go away today I would be a very happy camper.

Also, if cadence detection was a strong point of the video processing in the display, it shouldn't matter if the source material is coming in at 24p, the display should be able to do it with any source regardless of the refresh rate.

Senior Video Editor
Secrets of Home Theater and High Fidelity

Click Here To See My Current Setup
Kris Deering is offline  
Reply Blu-ray Players

Tags
Oppo , Oppo Bdp 83 Blu Ray Player , Blu Ray Players , Panasonic Dmp Bd80k Blu Ray Player , Panasonic Dmp Bd60 Blu Ray Disc Player Black , Panasonic

User Tag List

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off