Pioneer BDP-320/BDP-23FD Owner's Thread - Page 13 - AVS Forum
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Old 05-19-2009, 10:24 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Q of BanditZ View Post

What's going to happen for me is that my Yamaha 2700 does not pass Deep Color being HDMI 1.2a only so I will be using the analog outputs for audio and HDMI from the player directly to my TV. This is the only way I'll get the full benefit of the 36-48 bit setup that a number of these players offer.

Load times aren't the end of the world for me and my DVD viewing is very limited.

The 320 can do hdmi to your display (up to 48 bit) and analogue to your yamaha. Don't know how good the yamaha DACs are, but the 320's burr browns aren't shabby
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Old 05-19-2009, 10:25 AM
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Originally Posted by winston9332 View Post

The 320 can do hdmi to your display (up to 48 bit) and analogue to your yamaha. Don't know how good the yamaha DACs are, but the 320's burr browns aren't shabby


Yup. Yamaha's audio is excellent. The Pioneer literature advertised "audiophile capacitors" and a couple of other tidbits like that on the 23fd but I'm really not sure how much it all means.

Great ISF Job by Chad B.
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Old 05-19-2009, 10:26 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Q of BanditZ View Post

Yup. Yamaha's audio is excellent. The Pioneer literature advertised "audiophile capacitors" and a couple of other tidbits like that on the 23fd but I'm really not sure how much it all means.

Think CD has got a 23Fd on order that should be arriving soon. Hopefully he can give some feedback on the AQ of the DACs.
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Old 05-19-2009, 01:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Sound & Vision View Post

Well.... This is the first I've heard of the 320 having jaggies.. You didn't provide enough information.. What was the name of the disc(s).. Are they all SD, BD or both.. What scenes.. What resolution & player settings were you in? I find it hard to believe the kuro has a better de-interlacer than the 320 unless it's useing the same one from the bdp09.. Maybe there's a conflict between the two de-interlacers being on at the same time? Please give more details so others here can try to duplicate this issue to see what the actual cause may be.. Thanks.

I wasn't looking for a debate or for verification. I mentioned it before (somewhere).

The dvds were "hot fuzz" and "cast away". I cycled through all of the 320 player's output resolutions using movie mode on the kuro. When the 320 did the de-interlace (progressive) I noticed jaggies. Easy to see on the white Metro Police logo on the characters black vests in hot fuzz. Also quite apparent on the trucks fedex logo in the opening scence of cast away.

On lotr the 320 had a more pleasing image de-interlacing then the kuro, but I did not look for jaggies.
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Old 05-19-2009, 02:26 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by gearguy77 View Post

I wasn't looking for a debate or for verification. I mentioned it before (somewhere).

The dvds were "hot fuzz" and "cast away". I cycled through all of the 320 player's output resolutions using movie mode on the kuro. When the 320 did the de-interlace (progressive) I noticed jaggies. Easy to see on the white Metro Police logo on the characters black vests in hot fuzz. Also quite apparent on the trucks fedex logo in the opening scence of cast away.

On lotr the 320 had a more pleasing image de-interlacing then the kuro, but I did not look for jaggies.

were you using 1080p or auto when the jaggies appeared?
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Old 05-19-2009, 02:27 PM
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While I haven't checked with test patters, I just prefer de-interlacing from my kuro simply because the picture comes out a bit sharper. Sometimes I do see some slight artifacts, but I prefer the sharper picture over the softer one that I get when the 320 (or HQV) does the upscaling.
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Old 05-19-2009, 02:43 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by sheedoe View Post

While I haven't checked with test patters, I just prefer de-interlacing from my kuro simply because the picture comes out a bit sharper. Sometimes I do see some slight artifacts, but I prefer the sharper picture over the softer one that I get when the 320 (or HQV) does the upscaling.

I have yet to encounter any jaggies on sd dvds letting the 320 doing the heavy lifting as opposed to my kuro. I prefer it to the kuro, but I will admit both are good and it is subjective. I have no doubt that there may be some jaggies produced, but if you're seeing them regularly, then i wonder if you have a problem. I have not encountered them and have logged a lot of hours on my 320 in the past three weeks.
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Old 05-19-2009, 02:57 PM
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Winston9332, do you like your 320? and what made you decide on it over the different brands of blu-ray players within the same price?
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Old 05-19-2009, 02:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Pfdjr1 View Post

But you do not own the 320 or the 23?? This craps getting so old buddy, does Oppo pay you guys to go into other threads and hawk thier machines??
To be the best, you gotta beat the best.


Actually my 23 is on order from VE... buddy. So all your sanctimonious
gibberish is about as useful as **** on a nun.

Cd

Reality Based.
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Old 05-19-2009, 03:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Cattledog View Post

Actually my 23 is on order from VE... buddy. So all your sanctimonious
gibberish is about as useful as **** on a nun.

Cd

I'll be looking for your posts when you receive that unit and we'll see if there's any differences between it and a 320 or not.

Great ISF Job by Chad B.
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Old 05-19-2009, 04:00 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Kage View Post

Winston9332, do you like your 320? and what made you decide on it over the different brands of blu-ray players within the same price?

Kage, let me provide you with my opinion and observations:

I have an Oppo BDP83, Pioneer BDP51FD, Samsung 2550, LG BH200, Panasonic DMP BD55K, and have owned numerous other players in the past including a Samsung BD UP5000, Panasonic 35, Panasonic 30, and Sony 350.

Prior to the arrival of the Oppo, I used my Pioneer 51 as my main player. It was slow and quirky, but offered the best PQ, particulary on SD DVDs. My Samsung 2550 with the Reon chip was equally good but had an annoying handshake issue with my Onkyo that wore out my patience.

The Oppo is a tremendous player in both PQ and bells and whistles. It is very, very quick and hearty in its playback of netflix bds. It is also $500.

Back to the 320...as I have mentioned I believe the 320 is the best value below the Oppo in the marketplace today at prices that are now pushing $325. It really is not in direct competition with the oppo, but is in competition with Panny 80, sony 560, and samsung 3600. In that segment, I personally think its upscaling and audio quality are worth dealing with its sluggish opertation and lack of netflix. If you want a gimmicky player, go with the 3600. If you are interested in high end PQ and AQ, I think you ought to opt for the 320.

If I had to guess, I bet the 320's price will land a little north of $300. In this midmarket level, I think it's a great option.
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Old 05-19-2009, 04:58 PM
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Do you guys notice any difference between 2-channel analog out vs hdmi out when playing CDs? I tried both, but could not find an audible difference. But I like the fact I can use the analog out to listen to CDs without having my TV on as required when outputting via hdmi.
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Old 05-19-2009, 05:19 PM
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Originally Posted by winston9332 View Post

were you using 1080p or auto when the jaggies appeared?

480p/1080p produced jagged edges but I don't recall if auto had the jaggies. The 320 was smoother with lotr and looked more pleasing. With 'cast away' the 320 looked "blocky" instead of smooth. My 320 was hdmi direct to the kuro and set to pioneer pdp.
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Old 05-19-2009, 06:03 PM
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Good to hear there are 23's on the shelves. Now all we need is one in somebody's home so we can get a review!
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Old 05-19-2009, 07:57 PM
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Originally Posted by winston9332 View Post

Kage, let me provide you with my opinion and observations:

I have an Oppo BDP83, Pioneer BDP51FD, Samsung 2550, LG BH200, Panasonic DMP BD55K, and have owned numerous other players in the past including a Samsung BD UP5000, Panasonic 35, Panasonic 30, and Sony 350.

Prior to the arrival of the Oppo, I used my Pioneer 51 as my main player. It was slow and quirky, but offered the best PQ, particulary on SD DVDs. My Samsung 2550 with the Reon chip was equally good but had an annoying handshake issue with my Onkyo that wore out my patience.

The Oppo is a tremendous player in both PQ and bells and whistles. It is very, very quick and hearty in its playback of netflix bds. It is also $500.

Back to the 320...as I have mentioned I believe the 320 is the best value below the Oppo in the marketplace today at prices that are now pushing $325. It really is not in direct competition with the oppo, but is in competition with Panny 80, sony 560, and samsung 3600. In that segment, I personally think its upscaling and audio quality are worth dealing with its sluggish opertation and lack of netflix. If you want a gimmicky player, go with the 3600. If you are interested in high end PQ and AQ, I think you ought to opt for the 320.

If I had to guess, I bet the 320's price will land a little north of $300. In this midmarket level, I think it's a great option.

I found the 320 for a tad south of $300 from an authorised pioneeer dealer
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Old 05-19-2009, 09:07 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by arunkandra View Post

I found the 320 for a tad south of $300 from an authorised pioneeer dealer

Wow! if this unit ends up near 51FD levels, it will be the steal of the season!!!
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Old 05-19-2009, 10:08 PM
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Originally Posted by gearguy77 View Post

I wasn't looking for a debate or for verification. I mentioned it before (somewhere).

The dvds were "hot fuzz" and "cast away". I cycled through all of the 320 player's output resolutions using movie mode on the kuro. When the 320 did the de-interlace (progressive) I noticed jaggies. Easy to see on the white Metro Police logo on the characters black vests in hot fuzz. Also quite apparent on the trucks fedex logo in the opening scence of cast away.

On lotr the 320 had a more pleasing image de-interlacing then the kuro, but I did not look for jaggies.

According to this review of the BDP-51FD (which to my understanding shares the same de-interlacer) It shows that it failed the "Incorrect Progressive Flags" test, and was borderline on the "Bad Edit" test.. If those disc had authoring issues that tripped up the de-interlacer than this could be why "jaggies" or even "combing" could appear.

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/blu-r...k.html?start=3


To my surprise, the top of the line Elite BDP-09FD completely fails the "Incorrect Progressive Flags" and "Bad Edit" test.

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/blu-r...w.html?start=5

This is not good news... As i just can't see owning any SD/BD player this day and age that can't pass the "Bad Edit" test.. I think someone here may want to play the older SD version of "The Making oF The Big Lebowski", and watch for "combing" etc, during the scene where he's Sticking out his tongue at the bowling ball.. As for not passing the "Incorrect Progressive Flags" , just play the "older" SD version of Galaxy Quest, and note the edges of the ship as it comes into the main menu.


*Click the link below to see actual photos of the Movies as they fail the test. Note that these are freeze frames, so during actual play you will have to look for it.

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volum...ut-1-2003.html


*This refers to the "Older" (gold jacketed SD special edition), and not the newer re-released SD or BD one.
LL
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Old 05-20-2009, 06:07 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Sound & Vision View Post

According to this review of the BDP-51FD (which to my understanding shares the same de-interlacer) It shows that it failed the "Incorrect Progressive Flags" test, and was borderline on the "Bad Edit" test.. If those disc had authoring issues that tripped up the de-interlacer than this could be why "jaggies" or even "combing" could appear.

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/blu-r...k.html?start=3


To my surprise, the top of the line Elite BDP-09FD completely fails the "Incorrect Progressive Flags" and "Bad Edit" test.

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/blu-r...w.html?start=5

This is not good news... As i just can't see owning any SD/BD player this day and age that can't pass the "Bad Edit" test.. I think someone here may want to play the older SD version of "The Making oF The Big Lebowski", and watch for "combing" etc, during the scene where he's Sticking out his tongue at the bowling ball.. As for not passing the "Incorrect Progressive Flags" , just play the "older" SD version of Galaxy Quest, and note the edges of the ship as it comes into the main menu.


*Click the link below to see actual photos of the Movies as they fail the test. Note that these are freeze frames, so during actual play you will have to look for it.

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volum...ut-1-2003.html


*This refers to the "Older" (gold jacketed SD special edition), and not the newer re-released SD or BD one.

I remember Ruined addressed this on the 51FD thread...and I believe it may have been they were using older firmware. I will search that thread.
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Old 05-20-2009, 06:39 AM
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Originally Posted by winston9332 View Post

I remember Ruined addressed this on the 51FD thread...and I believe it may have been they were using older firmware. I will search that thread.

Thanks.. That would be great.
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Old 05-20-2009, 07:36 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Sound & Vision View Post

Thanks.. That would be great.

Few comments on review I dug up from 51 thread:
  • Firmware used was cited as 1.21 - 1.25a was released in early 09.
  • The display the tester was using was not 24fps capable (unsure what output resolution he was using throughout the testing, but this could have an impact).
  • The cadence issues were largely limited to component; we've known all along that the 51FD was weak on component and best viewed via hdmi.
  • He says: The HD performance of the BDP-51FD was respectable. On the upside, the player was able to properly convert 1080i material with both 3-2 and 2-2 cadences, there were no problems with pixel cropping, and it applies significant diagonal filtering.
  • On the downside, the BDP-51D didn't show enough of an amount of digital noise reduction to pass the noise reduction test. Don't know what settings he was using but NR is variable.



The secrets website keeps crashing on me. I did PM Ruined to see if he could offer any more insight on the 51FD review.
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Old 05-20-2009, 08:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by goneskiian View Post

Good to hear there are 23's on the shelves. Now all we need is one in somebody's home so we can get a review!

I'll be very surprised if it's any different from the 320.






Quote:
Originally Posted by Sound & Vision View Post

According to this review of the BDP-51FD (which to my understanding shares the same de-interlacer) It shows that it failed the "Incorrect Progressive Flags" test, and was borderline on the "Bad Edit" test.. If those disc had authoring issues that tripped up the de-interlacer than this could be why "jaggies" or even "combing" could appear.

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/blu-r...k.html?start=3


To my surprise, the top of the line Elite BDP-09FD completely fails the "Incorrect Progressive Flags" and "Bad Edit" test.

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/blu-r...w.html?start=5

This is not good news... As i just can't see owning any SD/BD player this day and age that can't pass the "Bad Edit" test.. I think someone here may want to play the older SD version of "The Making oF The Big Lebowski", and watch for "combing" etc, during the scene where he's Sticking out his tongue at the bowling ball.. As for not passing the "Incorrect Progressive Flags" , just play the "older" SD version of Galaxy Quest, and note the edges of the ship as it comes into the main menu.


*Click the link below to see actual photos of the Movies as they fail the test. Note that these are freeze frames, so during actual play you will have to look for it.

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volum...ut-1-2003.html


*This refers to the "Older" (gold jacketed SD special edition), and not the newer re-released SD or BD one.

How much of this sort of thing can people actually see in real world viewing conditions?

Great ISF Job by Chad B.
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Old 05-20-2009, 08:53 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Q of BanditZ View Post

How much of this sort of thing can people actually see in real world viewing conditions?

While test discs are great and provide a very objective pass/fail baseline, I prefer to look at real-world content to judge players' ability to upscale. My test for sd dvd upconversion is a scene for one of my favorite movies - Last of the Mohicans. It is not a great transfer and tends to look really noisy without much detail on most players. In particular there is an early scene where British officers are in a field asking colonials to join the militia. The scene has numerous pans, a lot of movement, some really bright and darker shadowy scenes, and some classic Michael Man in/out of focus zoom ins that offer a great view into the player's ability to reproduce detail and motion. The Oppo is the best - it offers tremendous detail and keeps movement smooth and natural. The second best is the Pioneer (closely followed by the Reon). The differences between the Oppo and the Pioneer are most noticeable on my 50" screen. They disappear relative to the size of the display: differences are minute on my 46" display and all but gone on my 40" bedroom set.

In comparing the Pioneer and Reon, I have always felt the Reon pushed detail at the cost of motion and fluidity. The Pioneer also has a slight advantage in my opion in color reproduction. This of course varies by source, but seems most visible on my Kuro.
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Old 05-20-2009, 09:08 AM
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I'll be very surprised if it's any different from the 320.


How much of this sort of thing can people actually see in real world viewing conditions?

Alot of it, if you know what to look for.. .. And more so if you have a large screen HDTV.. The above two test that failed used real movies to back up the test disc findings, and so that people will know what to look for..


*It would be great if someone could run an actual test disc on a 320.
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Old 05-20-2009, 09:12 AM
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Originally Posted by Sound & Vision View Post

Alot of it, if you know how to see it.. .. And more so if you have a large screen HDTV.. The above test two that failed used real movies to back up there the tedt disc findings, and so that people will know what to look for.

Got ya.


Quote:
Originally Posted by winston9332 View Post

While test discs are great and provide a very objective pass/fail baseline, I prefer to look at real-world content to judge players' ability to upscale. My test for sd dvd upconversion is a scene for one of my favorite movies - Last of the Mohicans. It is not a great transfer and tends to look really noisy without much detail on most players. In particular there is an early scene where British officers are in a field asking colonials to join the militia. The scene has numerous pans, a lot of movement, some really bright and darker shadowy scenes, and some classic Michael Man in/out of focus zoom ins that offer a great view into the player's ability to reproduce detail and motion. The Oppo is the best - it offers tremendous detail and keeps movement smooth and natural. The second best is the Pioneer (closely followed by the Reon). The differences between the Oppo and the Pioneer are most noticeable on my 50" screen. They disappear relative to the size of the display: differences are minute on my 46" display and all but gone on my 40" bedroom set.

In comparing the Pioneer and Reon, I have always felt the Reon pushed detail at the cost of motion and fluidity. The Pioneer also has a slight advantage in my opion in color reproduction. This of course varies by source, but seems most visible on my Kuro.

Understood. I've owned a 50 inch Pioneer Elite Kuro 111FD since this past November (thanks Roman!) and it's been pretty eye opening for me what I can see now on it, that's for sure.

Great ISF Job by Chad B.
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Old 05-20-2009, 09:52 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Sound & Vision View Post

Alot of it, if you know what to look for.. .. And more so if you have a large screen HDTV.. The above two test that failed used real movies to back up the test disc findings, and so that people will know what to look for..


*It would be great if someone could run an actual test disc on a 320.

I have the S&M disc at home that came with my oppo. I will run it. Remember, we are referencing an article that was on a different player running old firmware on a 60hz display. While I have no doubt the 51 and 320 are pretty similar, we need to be careful not to indict a second generation player for the sins of its predecessor running old firmware.
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Old 05-20-2009, 09:53 AM
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Originally Posted by winston9332 View Post

I have the S&M disc at home that came with my oppo. I will run it. Remember, we are referencing an article that was on a different player running old firmware on a 60hz display. While I have no doubt the 51 and 320 are pretty similar, we need to be careful not to indict a second generation player for the sins of its predecessor running old firmware.

The quality of the display itself also has to come into question here.

Great ISF Job by Chad B.
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Old 05-20-2009, 10:00 AM
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I have the S&M disc at home that came with my oppo. I will run it. Remember, we are referencing an article that was on a different player running old firmware on a 60hz display. While I have no doubt the 51 and 320 are pretty similar, we need to be careful not to indict a second generation player for the sins of its predecessor running old firmware.

Yes, very good points.. Looking forward to your findings.. As they may just be the first ones for the 320.
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Old 05-20-2009, 12:26 PM
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Originally Posted by winston9332 View Post

Kage, let me provide you with my opinion and observations:

I have an Oppo BDP83, Pioneer BDP51FD, Samsung 2550, LG BH200, Panasonic DMP BD55K, and have owned numerous other players in the past including a Samsung BD UP5000, Panasonic 35, Panasonic 30, and Sony 350.

Prior to the arrival of the Oppo, I used my Pioneer 51 as my main player. It was slow and quirky, but offered the best PQ, particulary on SD DVDs. My Samsung 2550 with the Reon chip was equally good but had an annoying handshake issue with my Onkyo that wore out my patience.

The Oppo is a tremendous player in both PQ and bells and whistles. It is very, very quick and hearty in its playback of netflix bds. It is also $500.

Back to the 320...as I have mentioned I believe the 320 is the best value below the Oppo in the marketplace today at prices that are now pushing $325. It really is not in direct competition with the oppo, but is in competition with Panny 80, sony 560, and samsung 3600. In that segment, I personally think its upscaling and audio quality are worth dealing with its sluggish opertation and lack of netflix. If you want a gimmicky player, go with the 3600. If you are interested in high end PQ and AQ, I think you ought to opt for the 320.

If I had to guess, I bet the 320's price will land a little north of $300. In this midmarket level, I think it's a great option.

My 320 is arriving today to my home and I think that it is the right blu-ray player for me. Do you think that there would be a firmware update to speed up the 320 in bootup times and loading times?
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Old 05-20-2009, 12:52 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Kage View Post

My 320 is arriving today to my home and I think that it is the right blu-ray player for me. Do you think that there would be a firmware update to speed up the 320 in bootup times and loading times?

Certainly could be. the memory is beefier than the 51, which might help with the layer change on dvds as well. pioneer has some big fish to fry corporately and once the 51/05 dts hd ma upgrade is out, i would imagine the 320 will be the prime target for upgrades. good news is a number of the initial bugs of the 51 have been worked out long before the 320 hit the shelves.
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Old 05-20-2009, 02:47 PM
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My 320 arrived around 1:45 pm CST, luckily I did not have to go to work this afternoon. My initial impression on the 320 is excellent. I will post my comparison with the Oppo BDP-83 later tonight or tomorrow.
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