Looks the High End is Avoiding Blu Ray players, too! - Page 3 - AVS Forum
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post #61 of 94 Old 05-03-2009, 03:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by super390 View Post

Maybe there won't be more than a few exotic Blu-ray players. That's a shame. I would have liked to get to play around at least once with a top-loading BD transport or one with a battery power supply or a tube analog section to see if it makes a difference.

Oh great, a tube blu-ray player. As someone who is part of the head-fi community, I can just envision if such a thing were to come to fruition. It would be disastrous! You'd have guys tube rolling non stop, and the true fidelity will never be known outside of stock tubes, because most of those cultists don't do anything stock. Opinions on the audio quality will vary due to the quality of NOS tubes people are using, which in turn will cause more confusion about the player. As if we need more confusion!
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post #62 of 94 Old 05-03-2009, 10:55 AM
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Hey if they make a high end cd player why not incorporate blu ray along with
that and make it the best they can..If they sell a cd or sacd player for 3000k
or whatever add in the blu ray video and adjust the price some.
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post #63 of 94 Old 05-03-2009, 11:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thebland View Post

Err.... Classe' is at least...

Yes, I have been somewhat an opponent of over-spending on a Blu Ray player if 1080P24 and Bitstream/LPCM HD Audio is your game... I still see little improvement in the 1080P24 PQ / AQ comparing my $2K Denon 3800, OPPO BDP-83 and Panny BD-10. They're all alike in sound and audio (though only the former two can do 1080P24).

So, I read this article and it felt like I was answering the questions! (except I don't work at Classe'.

But, it looks like we are stuck with the likes of Denon, Pioneer, Sony and the the usual BIg Store brands for our HD player needs...


From an Interview with Classe's Dave Nauber, Exec. VP, Brand Development of Classe. This is an excerpt from a posted insterview with HTGuide on the new flagship SSP-800 processor.

Blu-Ray
Q. In the past we have heard from Classe that the reason the company was not looking to create a Blu-Ray player was based upon not being able to offer value over a PS3. It was announced recently that the cost of licensing for Blu-Ray might be decreased. There has also been a lot of buzz around the Pioneer BDP-09FD over on AVS that it outperforms the PS3 significantly at Audio and Video playback for not just SD, but BD Disc's. Do you still stand firm on not being able to produce a [Blu-Ray] player, which used a digital transport for 1080P/24, and/or bit-streaming audio or converting it to PCM, would not produce better AQ or PQ then something like a PS3? Can you explain why it would not be possible for a player to produce a better PQ or AQ when used as a digital transport? Furthermore, if Classe can justify creating a CDT, wouldn't a BDT have the same justification?




A. There are at least five reasons why we won’t design a Blu-ray player—any one of which could be sufficient to discourage us.

1) We can’t justify the value proposition. Using HDMI out into a properly designed SSP, as you should, there isn’t enough performance improvement available to justify a price of ten or twenty times that of an ordinary player?

2) The product life cycles are too short to recoup our development costs.

3) It would involve an extended support commitment (“the game on my Shrek 7 disc doesn’t work right but it plays fine on my cheap Sony”) that we could not maintain. This is especially true if you re-box (put your name on) someone else’s design, which will be a popular option for high-end companies.

4) The trend is toward online delivery, Blu-ray reign is likely to be half as long as it was for DVD (which was half as long as CD).

5) The opportunity cost is too great. All high-end companies are small and like all companies, we have limited resources. To devote precious development time to a Blu-ray project would prevent us from developing products where we really can make a big difference in performance.



Sounds reasonable to me.......


LOL...thats funny, that was my question to Classe during a Q&A opportunity at htguide.com


a lot of good questions were asked and answered if anyone is interested. Check out the Q&A around what a processor does with a PCM signal besides just send it to DACs and the what sets SSP apart in that regard. I use to think most of the sound differences came from DACs, and see many people on AVS post the same. I certainly learned there is A LOT more to it.

http://www.htguide.com/forum/showthread.php4?t=33235
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post #64 of 94 Old 05-03-2009, 11:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joerod View Post

So they have no plans to bring their equipment up to date? So those that want HD discs in their homes that like their brand will be forced to buy something else? Talk about leaving yourself out there...


Classe has just chose to focus on other things then source players. i.e. the new SSP 800
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post #65 of 94 Old 05-03-2009, 11:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joerod View Post

Anyway, if I were one of there loyal customers, I would be looking somewhere else...

I have become a loyal Classe customer because of their honest and logical approach to the market, so I argue the exact opposite, and think this refreshing message will build further loyalty and new customers (like myself). Obviously I will have to look else where for source players, but as a result of learning about Classe and experiencing their product I have bought an amp, SSP and im currently saving for another SSP.
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post #66 of 94 Old 05-04-2009, 02:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FoxyMulder View Post

From that article "Esoteric product reviews have concluded that Esoteric has taken regular DVD quality so close to Blu-ray, that unless you look very closely at the screen, you may not be able to tell the difference"

Pity… Teac/Esoteric have many very well-made quality products.

It's truly saddening that they need to make such a desperate comment.
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post #67 of 94 Old 05-04-2009, 06:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kucharsk View Post

Pity Teac/Esoteric have many very well-made quality products.

It's truly saddening that they need to make such a desperate comment.

I seem to remember high-end companies making similar statements about SACD and other hi-res audio formats.
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post #68 of 94 Old 05-04-2009, 06:47 AM - Thread Starter
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Personally, these days I'd be wary of any boutique company releasing a Blu Ray player. They simply don't have the R+D, tech support, or capabilities to solve issues fast. Look what happened with Onkyo and their HD DVD player. When an update was needed, they got theirs way after the Toshiba players got them (as theOnkyo was a rebadged Toshiba). Oppo is the only company equipped for such that I am aware of and who knows how much dough or strain this has put on their company thus far..

The idea of a company like Classe' getting into BD player production given all its pitfalls and an unstable world economy is not simply smart, it is common sense.

There are more than a handful of [op amps] that sound so good that most designers want to be using them as opposed to discreet transistors. Dave Reich, Theta 2009
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post #69 of 94 Old 05-04-2009, 01:34 PM
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Reasonable approach although software requirements for the processors are quite high. Anyone know what EQ are they going to be using on their new one?
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post #70 of 94 Old 07-22-2009, 09:34 PM
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For those of you with $$$$$, note that Lexicon will have a Profile 2.0 player this November. The player will play DVD-Audio and SACD discs.

The player features embedded 1GB memory, Anchor Bay's VRS video processing, 7.1 channel analog outputs, a USB port and it plays AVCHD camcorder video.

No price yet (if you have to ask, you can't afford it).

http://www.twice.com/article/316135-...EDIA_Plans.php
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post #71 of 94 Old 07-23-2009, 05:14 AM
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Sounds like it might be based on the Oppo 83.
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post #72 of 94 Old 07-23-2009, 10:27 AM
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When I sold my company 10 years ago, I spent a fortune on Stereo equipment and a fortune om Accuphase electronics with an Accuphase cd player. Around 3 years ago I bought the top of the line Denon DVD player and thought I could replace my old Accuphase cd player DP-75 with the Denon but when I played CD on the Denon it was no where near as good. A year ago I played a symphony from my Comcast channel and it sounded better than either my Denon or the Accuphase. Somebody explain that one to me

I am thinking of buying a OPPO-83 primarily to get the SACD and DVD-A features and I agree with most members on this panel that paying more than 500- 1000 dollars for a blue ray player is a waste of money but I also think paying more than 5000 to 10000 dollars for a DLP projector is also a waste of money.
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post #73 of 94 Old 07-23-2009, 11:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elkhunter View Post

For those of you with $$$$$, note that Lexicon will have a Profile 2.0 player this November. The player will play DVD-Audio and SACD discs.

The player features embedded 1GB memory, Anchor Bay's VRS video processing, 7.1 channel analog outputs, a USB port and it plays AVCHD camcorder video.

No price yet (if you have to ask, you can't afford it).

http://www.twice.com/article/316135-...EDIA_Plans.php

Estimated at $3500.

Kal Rubinson

"Music in the Round"
Senior Contributing Editor, Stereophile
http://www.stereophile.com/category/music-round

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post #74 of 94 Old 07-23-2009, 11:59 AM
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I understand there concern plus I would like to add to that it is quite clumsy that most players are not region free. I want the best version of the film and if available in another territory first I should be able to have the choice to purchase that version and it should be compatible with every player on the planet. Thank you everyone and have a nice day, my 2 cents.

Awaiting the Reference Standard in Blu Ray REGION FREE Player Technology and EW service..............................still waiting. :)
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post #75 of 94 Old 07-23-2009, 12:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zeropoint View Post

Sounds like it might be based on the Oppo 83.

Exactly..

In the words of Classe about doing the same thing and keeping with the theme of the thread..i think this reply from them is fitting.

"We value our customers trust and want them to be proud of our Products...it would be difficult to be proud of paying $3-4k for a $500 player"

"We therefore do not intend to rebadge a competitor's product and sell it at an inflated price."

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post #76 of 94 Old 07-23-2009, 01:10 PM
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Although, I did say 'based on', so I wouldn't necessarily expect them to simply 'rebadge a competitor's product and sell it at an inflated price' but, to add value, such as higher quality analogue stage (much like mod'ers do,) pretty face, etc.
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post #77 of 94 Old 07-23-2009, 07:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vancouver View Post

Exactly..

In the words of Classe about doing the same thing and keeping with the theme of the thread..i think this reply from them is fitting.

"We value our customers trust and want them to be proud of our Products...it would be difficult to be proud of paying $3-4k for a $500 player"

"We therefore do not intend to rebadge a competitor's product and sell it at an inflated price."


but its ok for them to sell a $500 DVD player for $5000...

Wow, they really care about us.

<><

RTR
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post #78 of 94 Old 07-23-2009, 08:21 PM
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Originally Posted by BAMAVADER View Post

but its ok for them to sell a $500 DVD player for $5000...

Wow, they really care about us.

There were differences in players when it came to DVD...big differences since what was native on the disc (480i) wasnt the end result we were after
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post #79 of 94 Old 07-25-2009, 08:20 AM
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About Lexicon Blu-ray Player, it is really based on the Oppo

Oppo:


Lexicon:




Oppo:


Lexicon:



And Lexicon uses the same VRS ABT chipset for video:

http://dvice.com/archives/2009/07/lexicon-blu-ray.php
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post #80 of 94 Old 07-25-2009, 08:52 AM
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Looks pretty damn close to me

Id say its a $500 player priced at $3500, with perhaps a better analog section then the Oppo worth maybe an extra $500-$1000. There is also value in a better looking case. BUt certainly not an extra 2k.
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post #81 of 94 Old 07-25-2009, 09:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vancouver View Post

Looks pretty damn close to me

Id say its a $500 player priced at $3500, with perhaps a better analog section then the Oppo worth maybe an extra $500-$1000. There is also value in a better looking case. BUt certainly not an extra 2k.

that sounds right to me--wonder if there is actually a better analog section--anyone know whats inside this thing other than the same great video processing chip?

i think the oppo is probably underpriced for the value it provides--seems like they must be planning on selling millions of these things to make some money...
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post #82 of 94 Old 07-25-2009, 09:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Denophile View Post

that sounds right to me--wonder if there is actually a better analog section--anyone know whats inside this thing other than the same great video processing chip?

i think the oppo is probably underpriced for the value it provides--seems like they must be planning on selling millions of these things to make some money...


They have planned all along to have other high end brands rebage it. This lexicon thing is the first of many i think we will see.
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post #83 of 94 Old 07-25-2009, 09:12 AM
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then you find out via a DB test, you cant hear the diff anyway between a 1000 dollar front end and a 12k buck one!


I am no longer able to watch a movie. I am monitoring a video display with regards to chroma, brightness, contrast and correct pulldown.
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post #84 of 94 Old 07-25-2009, 09:34 AM
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The Lexicon is THX certified too (like ABT's VP50PRO) so it must be good
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post #85 of 94 Old 07-25-2009, 11:01 AM
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I have been following the whole "Can one BR player look better than another" argument for some time.

I am convinced that they can based upon every review I read and the kicker was this review of the 09 Pio Elite player by Stacy Spears. Using his personally developed test disc he is objectively measuring BR performance using for example chroma and luma. Interesting that he basically stated the $300 Panny outperformed the 09 Elite!

I am not saying night and day differences, but I believe there is some visible diff. with am eagle eye and a big enough screen.

Why are more people not talking about these tests.?
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post #86 of 94 Old 07-25-2009, 12:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gamelover360 View Post

I have been following the whole "Can one BR player look better than another" argument for some time.

I am convinced that they can based upon every review I read and the kicker was this review of the 09 Pio Elite player by Stacy Spears. Using his personally developed test disc he is objectively measuring BR performance using for example chroma and luma. Interesting that he basically stated the $300 Panny outperformed the 09 Elite!

I am not saying night and day differences, but I believe there is some visible diff. with am eagle eye and a big enough screen.

Why are more people not talking about these tests.?

Can you link these tests?
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post #87 of 94 Old 07-25-2009, 12:37 PM
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Originally Posted by discopaul View Post

Can you link these tests?

Sorry, here
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post #88 of 94 Old 07-25-2009, 12:47 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gamelover360 View Post

I have been following the whole "Can one BR player look better than another" argument for some time.

I am convinced that they can based upon every review I read and the kicker was this review of the 09 Pio Elite player by Stacy Spears. Using his personally developed test disc he is objectively measuring BR performance using for example chroma and luma. Interesting that he basically stated the $300 Panny outperformed the 09 Elite!

I am not saying night and day differences, but I believe there is some visible diff. with am eagle eye and a big enough screen.

Why are more people not talking about these tests.?

Sounds like Stacy and myself have similiar views of the high end players @ 1080P24 HDMI.

There are more than a handful of [op amps] that sound so good that most designers want to be using them as opposed to discreet transistors. Dave Reich, Theta 2009
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post #89 of 94 Old 07-25-2009, 01:22 PM
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Widescreen 09 review

Quote:


The luma resolution was as good is gets, but the
chroma resolution has room for improvement. I use a
chroma multiburst and a chroma zone plate pattern to
evaluate chroma resolution. These tests allow you to evaluate the player’s
ability to resolve the finest amount of chroma detail. The BDP-09FD
resolves more chroma detail than the PS3®, but it is not as good as
the new offerings from Panasonic with their PHL chroma processing.
The BDP-09FD has 15 user-adjustable controls that affect the
video. For many, who like to tweak, you will be in video geek heaven.
The default controls reproduce what is on the disc with perfect accuracy,
sans the loss of chroma detail. None of the controls, including
chroma level, helped improve the chroma detail.

Earlier I mentioned that the BDP-09FD includes the Marvell Qdeo
2710 video processor. There are a small number of companies in the
video-processing space. The short list includes STMicro (Faroudja),
Silicon Optix (HQV), Anchor Bay Technology (DVDO), Sigma Designs
(VXP), and Marvell (Qdeo). All of the technologies are similar. They all
support high-quality video processing of HD content, but there are
subtle differences between them.

Audioholics...Oppo 83 review

Quote:


We watched a ton of disc material to evaluate the playback quality of the Oppo Blu-ray player. We checked out various aspects, including color, deinterlacing (of mostly standard definition titles) and black level reproduction and dynamic range. In all scenarios, the Oppo seemed to really perform well and positioned itself as an excellent video playback device for both high definition and standard definition material.

Blu-ray: The Fifth Element

This movie has been one of my reference discs for some time. The revised Blu-ray edition is an excellent disc for testing color reproduction and detail. We checked several scenes, including the one where Zorg delivers weapons to the Mangalores - a scene with particularly difficult detail and a breeding ground for moiré.


fifth-element3.jpg

The BDP-83 did exceptionally well on this movie and we noticed no artifacting, moiré or jaggie effects on any of the scenes. Colors were vibrant and black levels were rendered correctly, with lots of dynamic range.

Blu-ray: Underworld - Rise of the Lycans

This movie is about as colorful as a Tim Burton film… but we were using it to check out black level detail and look for gradations in patches of grays, determining whether or not the Oppo BDP-83 was truly capable of delivering top notch dynamic range. We really enjoyed the level of detail the player produced as well as its ability to accurately portray subtleties in the darkest scenes without crushing blacks.


Blu-ray: The Departed

While not one of my favorite films, The Departed at least delivers a decent picture quality and provided some excellent opportunities to observe facial detail. This movie also lent itself as a great way to observe scene detail and how well the BDP-83 showed off scene motion and dealt with fast pans.



Blu-ray: 300

300 is such an excellent film. While highly stylized, I just had to include it in the line-up, plus it helped me to see how well the player's BD-Live! features worked. The Oppo portrayed the fast-action and high-motion shots with ease, never failing in terms of its ability to produce smooth lines and excellent detail - even when the camera was moving at the speed of light.

Secrets review of Oppo 83

Quote:


On the HDMI side, the Luma and Chroma signals were observed to be aligned precisely and both Chroma and Luma resolutions are shown without breakup or lack of intensity in fine details

Audiophile audition

Quote:


I then put a couple of Blu-rays I had around in my first-generation (SRP $1500) Pioneer Blu-ray player, which has the latest firmware updates. Compared to the Oppo BDP-83 I didn’t see any huge differences. Then I tried stopping on some still images in the Blu-rays. One scene of rooftops in Berlin had a great deal of detail and depth in it. The same image when paused as a still on the BDP-83 had improved resolution thruout the entire image. Rooftop signs where the letters were a big fuzzy on the Pioneer became much clearer on the BDP-83.

Lastly, I read in one Oppo 83 review (I can't find it now) that it scored a 97 on the chroma test from the Spears and Muncil disk. That is objective. I would like to know more about that.


I am not disputing your claim Bland, I just don't understand why objective tests are never mentioned when the debate over BR quality rages.

I am more looking for clarification and an answer to the question. To me this is a Science, and there must be some objective way to prove whether all BR playback is the same. Even if it is a little better, that matters a LOT to me. I have better than average vision and a crazier than average brain.

The PHL chroma processing from Panny perked my ears since Stacy Spears referred to it. Anything to it?
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post #90 of 94 Old 07-25-2009, 01:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vancouver View Post

They have planned all along to have other high end brands rebage it. This lexicon thing is the first of many i think we will see.

makes sense--and speaks to the value of the oppo badged m0dels! my bro in law wants to get a new brp and i told him it would be difficult to get more value for the money than this unit seems to provide,
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